Sikh families leave Orakzai after Taliban demand jizia

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

No taxation without representation - Indeed.

 

[Elmo]

So what? Jizya doesnt apply to just conquered forces.

Look, this isn't difficult.

In Islamic societies, Muslims pay Zakat, what do non Muslims pay? There is no word for tax in Islam. We use the terms "Zakat", and "Jizya".

This is for an Islamic society. Now I'm of the opinion Zakat and Jizya should be the same. Both sets of people use the facilities.



Both are taxes. They are called separate for the reasons already given, if you'll read them.



Right or wrong, they are Orakzai tribals. Noone rules them directly except themselves. Lumping all Taliban together is silly anyway, they may have nothing to do with Mehsud, or anyone else. They might just be Orakzais who have been labelled as Taliban. If that's the case, no they're not terrorists.

But someone needs to give them a maths lesson.



Did they threaten the Sikhs with death? I think they just repossed their properties.

Mind you, repossession is still wrong, if they're not charging Muslims the same Zakat.



The tax is very fair if they apply Zakat to the Muslims.



There you go.

Aap kashmir pohanch gaye hain.........please buss!

 

[Awesome]

The sad part is pakistan is doing nothing about it.. and your fears are real asim.. this would lead to divisions among the various sectors. We have lot pakistani hindus who had come from swat, in india, they are given residence permit here.. Well patriotism is what they lack asim, why, ?the government, the system they believed in when they decieded to stay on in 1947 just turned their backside to them.,.. they are left to suffer from the exploitation of some illeterate/extrimst mullahs..!!!!!

I don't think Pakistan is doing nothing about it. Pakistan is probably the only one doing something about it.

We have a complex problem here.

Jizya is an official Islamic thing. However every Muslim knows the Zakat is a lot more important in Islam and mentioned over and over. Zakat is applicable (an Islamically defined rate is also applied) only upon Muslims. To be fair, Muslim governments should charge the same amount as Jizya and call it a day.

Aka Taxes of the modern world.

However the Talibans are assholes right? They are obviously collecting hafta and its ransom, pay up or you die. And the money should goto Pakistan or the federal ministry controlling FATA, since it is the Federally Administered territory.

Whats happening here is wrong, lets not leave an inkling of a doubt that we need to kick the Taliban's *****, and show our patriotic solidarity with the Sikh families. Pakistanis are being kicked out of Pakistani lands by asshole Afghani militants. That is how I see the story and refuse to get bogged down on the nitty gritties of jizya, zakat, tax, rates, purpose, revnue...

Are we forgetting the slogan, Sab se pehle Pakistan?

 

[roadrunner]

Whats happening here is wrong, lets not leave an inkling of a doubt that we need to kick the Taliban's *****, and show our patriotic solidarity with the Sikh families. Pakistanis are being kicked out of Pakistani lands by asshole Afghani militants.

Et tu? They're not Afghan militants. They're Pakistani Orakzai tribals.

That is their land (though what they're doing is wrong, if they're not charging an equal Zakat).

 

[Awesome]

Et tu? They're not Afghan militants. They're Pakistani Orakzai tribals.

That is their land (though what they're doing is wrong, if they're not charging an equal Zakat).

Their boss is an Afghani, Mullah Omar... And all indications suggest this is a Taliban move rather than a tribal move.

And the Taliban are an outlawed terrorist outfit. Enemies of the nation, the Pakistani nation - comprising of millions of non-Muslim Pakistanis. Anyone who supports them in that agency are treacherous scum that are better dead than alive.

They are essentially robbing Pakistanis under the guise of Jizya. Moreover, I consider them to be patrons of Satan and they can't be associated with anything Islamic.

 

[Elmo]

I don't think Pakistan is doing nothing about it. Pakistan is probably the only one doing something about it.

We have a complex problem here.

Jizya is an official Islamic thing. However every Muslim knows the Zakat is a lot more important in Islam and mentioned over and over. Zakat is applicable (an Islamically defined rate is also applied) only upon Muslims. To be fair, Muslim governments should charge the same amount as Jizya and call it a day.

Aka Taxes of the modern world.

However the Talibans are assholes right? They are obviously collecting hafta and its ransom, pay up or you die. And the money should goto Pakistan or the federal ministry controlling FATA, since it is the Federally Administered territory.

Whats happening here is wrong, lets not leave an inkling of a doubt that we need to kick the Taliban's *****, and show our patriotic solidarity with the Sikh families. Pakistanis are being kicked out of Pakistani lands by asshole Afghani militants. That is how I see the story and refuse to get bogged down on the nitty gritties of jizya, zakat, tax, rates, purpose, revnue...

Are we forgetting the slogan, Sab se pehle Pakistan?

@ Asim: Hate to be a kill joy, but what you said right now has been said in the last 130 something posts. We know Talibans are outlaws and terrorists, jizya by them isn't fair, the Sikhs aren't being protected etc etc. This thread can go on ad infinitum, please end it. I don't and possibly can't kill this with my arguments.


(P.S.: I found something slightly offending. I hope you know Urdu.... just because you are using English doesn't mean that you can use words such as "asshole". They are as offensive in English as in colloquial)

 

[Awesome]

@ Asim: Hate to be a kill joy, but what you said right now has been said in the last 130 something posts. We know Talibans are outlaws and terrorists, jizya by them isn't fair, the Sikhs aren't being protected etc etc. This thread can go on ad infinitum, please end it. I don't and possibly can't kill this with my arguments.


(P.S.: I found something slightly offending. I hope you know Urdu.... just because you are using English doesn't mean that you can use words such as "asshole". They are as offensive in English as in colloquial)

Sure, but I had to get my 2 cents in too.

About the language, point taken.

 

[Elmo]

Sure, but I had to get my 2 cents in too.

About the language, point taken.

@ Asim: Only two cents, come on man that's such a gross underestimation of your worthy input I'll call it a pound....what say you?

Coming back to the thread does anyone know what the status of the Sikhs is in Orakzai Agency now? Any news clippings? Also I was wondering if someone could provide me with details of the Sikhs' presence in Pakistan. I have seen the old gurdwara in Quetta on Jinnah Road (i think that's what it is but correct me if I am wrong) but is it still used. Do we have Sikhs elsewhere besides those in the Punjab? I admit it was the first time I heard about them being in Orakzai Agency — the ones in Kabul (Afghanistan) have received a lot of press coverage.

 

[All-Green]

Et tu? They're not Afghan militants. They're Pakistani Orakzai tribals.

That is their land (though what they're doing is wrong, if they're not charging an equal Zakat).

RR,

Two scenarios come to mind

1) The group is TTP
2) The group is not TTP

In both scenarios they have as much right to collect Jizya as i have to claim your property as mine.
Get the drift?

Whether they collect Zakat or not is not the point and does not merit your attention as much as the fact which should be acknowledged here...There is nothing Legal (as per Islamic Law and Constitution of Pakistan) about collecting Jizya or Zakat since in both cases Taliban are not the State and actually fall under the enemy of the state category by doing such an act....deserving capital punishment according to Shariah which means execution down to every man who is collecting this parallel tax!

Regarding the two scenarios, if the situation is indeed pertaining to scenario 2 which i really give a 0.01% chance....even then TTP share direct and absolute blame due to the situation they have directly contributed to..... by eliminating Tribal leadership, Jirgas, government representation, opposing citizens and as a result cowing the community into submission so that any tom, dick and harry can gang up, use the name Taliban and put fear of death into the hearts of the people!

The people have become submissive because if situation gets out of control and Army steps in then what little they possess will be damaged since TTP and ilk have no qualms about using public lives and property in facing Army...murderers have no honor and certainly no pity!

P.S. A bit irrelevant since we have already established the illegality of TTP action...but they are certainly not working on any development or social work other than expertly orchestrated assassinations and summary executions

 

[roadrunner]

Their boss is an Afghani, Mullah Omar... And all indications suggest this is a Taliban move rather than a tribal move.

What indications?

You're suggesting the Afghani Taliban has somehow invaded the Pakistani areas and imposed their ideology on the tribals.

Where is your evidence for this?

Taliban is Taliban. I think the arrest we made in Lahore is testament that Afghanis are spreading their terrorism menace in Pakistan. A good Taliban is the one that is outside of Pakistan.

Everything I've read so far has indicated that it is a spread of ideology that tribals (they may not be senior), take on.

Pakistani government and the news articles specifically state that its the Taliban. These folks didn't remember to impose Jiziya in 60 yrs and now they've suddenly made up their minds? It's the Taliban dude.

And where is the evidence that Mullah Omar is controlling these recent converts to Taliban ideology?

Should any Pakistani care about that? Kick em out all the same. Its Pakistani government law or the gallows in my books.

Agreed that if these specific "Taliban" are not charging an equal Zakat on the Muslims, then it's not Islamic.

If they are collecting anything at all its unislamic. Number Islamic LAW has not been imposed there. They are breaking the law of the land and that is unIslamic. Number 2, the collected taxes belong to the government, there should be an audit process of where they are spent. Not as "Hafta tax" to spare their lives.

We all know what these unparh jhahil gawaars would be doing there, so why not just blast em away for the low life scums they are.

 

[Awesome]

Their boss is an Afghani, Mullah Omar... And all indications suggest this is a Taliban move rather than a tribal move.

What indications?

You're suggesting the Afghani Taliban has somehow invaded the Pakistani areas and imposed their ideology on the tribals.

Where is your evidence for this?

Taliban is Taliban. I think the arrest we made in Lahore is testament that Afghanis are spreading their terrorism menace in Pakistan. A good Taliban is the one that is outside of Pakistan.

Everything I've read so far has indicated that it is a spread of ideology that tribals (they may not be senior), take on.

Pakistani government and the news articles specifically state that its the Taliban. These folks didn't remember to impose Jiziya in 60 yrs and now they've suddenly made up their minds? It's the Taliban dude.

And where is the evidence that Mullah Omar is controlling these recent converts to Taliban ideology?

Should any Pakistani care about that? Kick em out all the same. Its Pakistani government law or the gallows in my books.

Agreed that if these specific "Taliban" are not charging an equal Zakat on the Muslims, then it's not Islamic.

If they are collecting anything at all its unislamic. Number Islamic LAW has not been imposed there. They are breaking the law of the land and that is unIslamic. Number 2, the collected taxes belong to the government, there should be an audit process of where they are spent. Not as "Hafta tax" to spare their lives.

We all know what these unparh jhahil gawaars would be doing there, so why not just blast em away for the low life scums they are.

 

[Awesome]

Taliban is Taliban. I think the arrest we made in Lahore is testament that Afghanis are spreading their terrorism menace in Pakistan. A good Taliban is the one that is outside of Pakistan.


Pakistani government and the news articles specifically state that its the Taliban. These folks didn't remember to impose Jiziya in 60 yrs and now they've suddenly made up their minds? It's the Taliban dude.


Should any Pakistani care about that? Kick em out all the same. Its Pakistani government law or the gallows in my books.


If they are collecting anything at all its unislamic. Number Islamic LAW has not been imposed there. They are breaking the law of the land and that is unIslamic. Number 2, the collected taxes belong to the government, there should be an audit process of where they are spent. Not as "Hafta tax" to spare their lives.

We all know what these unparh jhahil gawaars would be doing there, so why not just blast em away for the low life scums they are.

Dude, I accidentally edited your post instead of quoting it.

Time to go to bed. My apologies for the mistake. I even hard saved the thing and then realized it.

 

[roadrunner]

RR,

Two scenarios come to mind

1) The group is TTP
2) The group is not TTP

In both scenarios they have as much right to collect Jizya as i have to claim your property as mine.
Get the drift?

Whether they collect Zakat or not is not the point and does not merit your attention as much as the fact which should be acknowledged here...There is nothing Legal (as per Islamic Law and Constitution of Pakistan) about collecting Jizya or Zakat since in both cases Taliban are not the State and actually fall under the enemy of the state category by doing such an act....deserving capital punishment according to Shariah which means execution down to every man who is collecting this parallel tax!

Regarding the two scenarios, if the situation is indeed pertaining to scenario 2 which i really give a 0.01% chance....even then TTP share direct and absolute blame due to the situation they have directly contributed to..... by eliminating Tribal leadership, Jirgas, government representation, opposing citizens and as a result cowing the community into submission so that any tom, dick and harry can gang up, use the name Taliban and put fear of death into the hearts of the people!

The people have become submissive because if situation gets out of control and Army steps in then what little they possess will be damaged since TTP and ilk have no qualms about using public lives and property in facing Army...murderers have no honor and certainly no pity!

P.S. A bit irrelevant since we have already established the illegality of TTP action...but they are certainly not working on any development or social work other than expertly orchestrated assassinations and summary executions

What you're saying is that the Orakzai "Taliban" (I'll call them local Taliban since I've not seen any indications they're Afghani), don't have the right to collect Jizya, because they're not the government. Two things spring to mind here. First, who is the government of FATA? It doesnt have one. FATA can make representations in the National Assembly through political agents but it is governed by the tribal elders, or whoever wields the stick so to speak. Second, more of an Islamic question to ponder. Where does it say only a government can collect Jizya tax?

 

[roadrunner]

Taliban is Taliban. I think the arrest we made in Lahore is testament that Afghanis are spreading their terrorism menace in Pakistan. A good Taliban is the one that is outside of Pakistan.


Pakistani government and the news articles specifically state that its the Taliban. These folks didn't remember to impose Jiziya in 60 yrs and now they've suddenly made up their minds? It's the Taliban dude.


Should any Pakistani care about that? Kick em out all the same. Its Pakistani government law or the gallows in my books.


If they are collecting anything at all its unislamic. Number Islamic LAW has not been imposed there. They are breaking the law of the land and that is unIslamic. Number 2, the collected taxes belong to the government, there should be an audit process of where they are spent. Not as "Hafta tax" to spare their lives.

We all know what these unparh jhahil gawaars would be doing there, so why not just blast em away for the low life scums they are.

Oh please Asim. They were perfectly good responses. You can't blame that on sleep deprivation.

Btw, I did not type the above. Asim alleges he made a "mistake".

This I did say though,

What indications?

You're suggesting the Afghani Taliban has somehow invaded the Pakistani areas and imposed their ideology on the tribals.

Where is your evidence for this?

 

[All-Green]

What you're saying is that the Orakzai "Taliban" (I'll call them local Taliban since I've not seen any indications they're Afghani), don't have the right to collect Jizya, because they're not the government. Two things spring to mind here. First, who is the government of FATA? It doesnt have one. FATA can make representations in the National Assembly through political agents but it is governed by the tribal elders, or whoever wields the stick so to speak. Second, more of an Islamic question to ponder. Where does it say only a government can collect Jizya tax?

Only the state can collect Taxes in Islamic system...you think any person can collect Zakat/Jizya?
That would amount to Taxation imposed by anyone with the force of arms...a new name for robbery.

Jizya is a per capita tax payed by a non Muslim as part of being a citizen of the Muslim state, it is a tax like Zakat being paid by Muslims to enjoy the state's security and other services.
Elderly, minors, women, slaves, handicapped, jobless etc. were exempt from Jizya similar to conditions of Zakat.

FATA cannot have a parallel taxation system...it is federally administered but part of Pakistan and as long as they can be called Pakistanis they cannot be subjected to any Tax other than what has been committed to the state of Pakistan as per Pakistani law.
The Sikhs are Pakistani and state acknowledges them as such so they should not pay anything the state does not demand of them.

On our honor as Muslims we are ethically bound to obey the laws of any country whose citizenship we enjoy and if we deem that the laws are hindering us to follow Islam then we should migrate somewhere else.