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So is it acceptable for a Caliph to be an alcoholic and a lunatic? Can the "Amīr al-Mu'minīn" be that and still ensure a just Islamic society fair to Muslims as well as non-Muslims?

Well absolutely not!
But now the question is who is going to question the caliph. Well its the people as it happens that a man questioned caliph Umer (RA) about two sheet of cloth while every other had one.
We Muslims have to select the right man. once selected we can question him as well as follow him
 
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Umraip..

No Answer?

Don't writ crap.

You accepted Musharraf and now you question him.
 
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Well absolutely not!
But now the question is who is going to question the caliph. Well its the people as it happens that a man questioned caliph Umer (RA) about two sheet of cloth while every other had one.
We Muslims have to select the right man. once selected we can question him as well as follow him

Umairp, we are not talking about the theory of the ideal state but it's practice.

It seems that there are no sustained examples of that after the first 40 years! There were some great Muslim rulers. But they were good because they were good human beings and may be good Muslims. Good, bad and ugly rulers have come in every society.

So there doesn't seem to be anything different that you have to offer in practice than pious words?

And you know that even the first 40 years were not entirely unblemished. 3 out of the 4 caliphs were murdered. Shias question the right to Caliphate for the first 3 rulers. There were internecine wars during that period and what not.

See my intention is just to say that there is a wide gulf in theory and practice of the ideal state. The rest of the world can not be expected to believe such platitudes when they have never seen a single such state function in the entire history.
 
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Yeah that is a little problem we are facing right now. But apart from the caliph's selection other matters were purely Islamic in past 1300 years
 
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I told you about the voting system. I told you about the Caliphat's eligibility. What else do you want to know? What this stupid stuff like Genre. What are you suggesting I am a moron. I know nothing and you are the man who know every thing? If you were interested in this topic you wouldn't have been cross questioning.

You told nothing.

On fact. I told you something.


You spoke of democracy of the Caliphate and I told it you that is was all about dynasties and dynasties are far from what you claimed as everyone of age could vote!

So, why fudge?


Be a man and face the truth.

How long can you fool yourself?
 
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Umraip,

You told us nothing about the voting or anything of the caliphate.

Quit fibbing!
 
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Umraip,

I am taking a break since you know nothing.


Self gratify yourself over an issue you know nothing about!
 
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You told nothing.

On fact. I told you something.


You spoke of democracy of the Caliphate and I told it you that is was all about dynasties and dynasties are far from what you claimed as everyone of age could vote!

So, why fudge?


Be a man and face the truth.

How long can you fool yourself?

In the first 40 years voting took place but than dynasty ruled but other system remained the same.

By the way I am not fooling my self. The reality is out there for you to realize.
 
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Umraip

Tell me the old, old story, tell me the old, old story,
Tell me the old, old story, of Jesus and His love.

Tell me the story slowly, that I may take it in,
That wonderful redemption, God’s remedy for sin.
Tell me the story often, for I forget so soon;
The early dew of morning has passed away at noon.

Refrain

Tell me the story softly, with earnest tones and grave;
Remember I’m the sinner whom Jesus came to save.
Tell me the story always, if you would really be,
In any time of trouble, a comforter to me.

Refrain

Tell me the same old story when you have cause to fear
That this world’s empty glory is costing me too dear.
Yes, and when that world’s glory is dawning on my soul,
Tell me the old, old story: “Christ Jesus makes thee whole.”

Refrain
 
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Well what can I say. I just gave you a blink of info about Islamic State and you went so far to declare that Pakistan is not and will never be an Islamic State. You didn't like my quoting Jinnah and so on. Simply your just not interested in Islam and Pakistan you just want to prove that the very Idea of Pakistan is absurd. So go on, think like this, I wont stop you. Have a nice time enjoying freedom of thought!
 
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Yeah that is a little problem we are facing right now. But apart from the caliph's selection other matters were purely Islamic in past 1300 years

I stop now to avoid going in circles.

If you look at my previous posts, you will find that your assertion does not match with the theory of an ideal Islamic state.

I pointed out the reality of the Turkish empire. We can discuss the other empires as well and the result will be no different.
 
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Well if some one is not able to bring all the facts about reality that doesn't mean that the reality does not exist.

Pakistan was suppose to be a Islamic State.The problem is that no government ever tried to make it one. So all we know about Islamic State is few examples from the past. When some Idea is put into reality only then we can find the answers to the questions. Because mostly question are posed during this application.

And as I said I am just a fan of Islamic State and believe that it holds the solution to certain problems we are facing today. I don't question Islamic system instead I obey. So i you want to know the in depth, I may not be able to tell you.

Let me make my self clear. Islam is a complete system rather than just a package of rituals. We need to understand it and we need to practice it. That is our responsibility. And as indicated by Quran and Hadith our responsibilities also include creation of a separate state to impose and apply Laws of Quran. Pakistan is one such state.

I stop now to avoid going in circles.

If you look at my previous posts, you will find that your assertion does not match with the theory of an ideal Islamic state.

I pointed out the reality of the Turkish empire. We can discuss the other empires as well and the result will be no different.

The Ottoman Empire was the Islamic State not the Ideal Islamic State. Our first goal is Islamic State as mentioned by Allama Iqbal in his speeches. Then and only then we can go for Ideal Islamic State.
 
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