Sikh and Hindu officers usher in a new era in Pakistani Army

[Comet]

It doesn't matter how old it is. It still has to fit the modern definition of democracy.

In any case the word "democracy" is derived from the greek "demos" (people) and "kratos" (rule).
The origins of modern democracy lie in Athenian democracy practiced by the ancient Greeks. There is ample historical evidence available for this.
Still older is the oligarchy practiced in ancient India, which was a form of limited democracy or "rule by consensus".

Tell me, what is the Arabic word for democracy?

I don't know Arabic.


Well this discussion is going out of bounds. Let me tell you all of the story in short : Pakistan is ought to become an Ideal Islamic state as stated by Allama Iqbal. It is still not the Ideal state. We are working at the same time for economic and idealogic advancement. Pakistan will one day become Ideal state. I am not the architect but just a fan who realizes its importance. Democracy when talked in terms of Islam means to select your leader. That is the main theme. Of course there are problems and solution top those problems. If you don't get 100% at least one can opt for 70% i.e same parliamentary system with judiciary and other department converted to sharia

 

[Vinod2070]

Thats what I have been saying. cant you understand??? 70% means that there was no democracy but other system was almost the same.

No problem. So it was not democratic but was a welfare state. Both for its Muslim as well as non-Muslim subjects.

Yeah right.

Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն, Turkish: Ermeni Soykırım&#305, also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռ&#1398—refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I. It was characterised by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one-and-a-half million. Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider the events to be part of the same policy of extermination.[1]

It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,[2][3] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[4]

Map of the 1915 Armenian Genocide in the Turkish Empire

FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

The Dark History of the Turkish Empire, Article by Dana Kadir « The truth about Turkish History

The sultans themselves had sunk into indolence and depravity. Until the ascension (1603) of Ahmad I, the succession to the throne was habitually contested by all the sons of the deceased sultan, and it was the patriotic duty of the victor to kill his rivals in order to restore order. Although this practice was barbarous, when it ceased other problems arose. The eldest male member of the family was recognized as the heir-designate, but to prevent threats to the sultan the imperial prince was denied any involvement in public affairs and was kept in luxurious imprisonment. When the prince finally ascended the throne, he was often alcoholic or lunatic.

How could a lunatic run an ideal Islamic state?

Also the Turks used to kidnap the children of the Christian Europeans and make them into their soldiers. Hardly a welfare state.

 

[Flintlock]

I don't know Arabic.


Well this discussion is going out of bounds. Let me tell you all of the story in short : Pakistan is ought to become an Ideal Islamic state as stated by Allama Iqbal. It is still not the Ideal state. We are working at the same time for economic and idealogic advancement. Pakistan will one day become Ideal state. I am not the architect but just a fan who realizes its importance. Democracy when talked in terms of Islam means to select your leader. That is the main theme. Of course there are problems and solution top those problems. If you don't get 100% at least one can opt for 70% i.e same parliamentary system with judiciary and other department converted to sharia

Easier said than done my friend. I can spot 50 problems with this plan.

In any case, good luck to your dream. Hope it works out.

P.S. If you let me guess, I'd say there was no Arabic word for democracy. Not until the 19th century atleast.

 

[Vinod2070]

Well the other 1400 years are well 1400 years. One has to go through the history. But the point is same. The governments were not democratic but the system was quite similar to the one employed by the Prophet(SAW)

Agreed. So that is the reason we are limiting the discussion to the three empires selected by you as the next best examples of ideal Islamic state after the first 40 years.

And we have started with the Turkish empire as they had the Caliph.

 

[Comet]

Easier said than done my friend. I can spot 50 problems with this plan.

In any case, good luck to your dream. Hope it works out.

P.S. If you let me guess, I'd say there was no Arabic word for democracy. Not until the 19th century atleast.

Well my friend if there weren't problems than this system would have been applied by now. The main thing is that it is our duty ( as Muslims ) to spread the message of Quran that includes establishment of an Ideal state to apply the Rules and to tell others of its benefits. Only then we can show the world what Quran says. Other wise its just another book if it isn't properly applied in daily life. And also Muslim state is to facilitate Muslims.
Why there are problems? because some lunatics blew it all up. Since there is a gap that is widening day by day that is the reason why Ideal state is seen as just a theory.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I don't know Arabic.


Well this discussion is going out of bounds. Let me tell you all of the story in short : Pakistan is ought to become an Ideal Islamic state as stated by Allama Iqbal. It is still not the Ideal state. We are working at the same time for economic and idealogic advancement. Pakistan will one day become Ideal state. I am not the architect but just a fan who realizes its importance. Democracy when talked in terms of Islam means to select your leader. That is the main theme. Of course there are problems and solution top those problems. If you don't get 100% at least one can opt for 70% i.e same parliamentary system with judiciary and other department converted to sharia

The problem with people of your genre is that you are dreamers and you fantasise to gloss over the woes and imperfections!

There is NOTHING ideal in Life. It is an exercise of making the best opf a given situation with the morality as is ingrained in your genes and your experience.

Pakistan will NEVER be an IDEAL Islamic or non Islamic State. Nor will any other country in this world ever be an Ideal country. Sooner we realise it, the better.

Iqbal tried Ijithad there was a fatwa

when Alama Iqbal wrote the Shiqwa and Jawabi Shiqwa, all mullaas gave a fatwa that he (Aalama Iqbal) is Kaffar (na aozo billa).

Alama Iqbal write:-

Toheedi Khoda Hum Hai Wahid Khada Humaara
Hum Kafroo kai Kafar, Kafar Khada Humaara

but our Ujud Mulaaas give fatwa that Alama Iqbal called Muslims and Allah as a ***** (na aozo billa) and therefore He (Alama Iqbal) is Kaffar (na aozo billa).

But when Aalims do speech they give the refrences of Aalama Iqbal's poetry, like

Kee Muhammed (PBUH) sai Wafa Too Nai Hum Tairay Hai
Yeh Jahaa Cheees Hai Kaya Loho Kalaam Tairay hai

Zabaa'n Sai Keh B Deya La Ilaha To Kaya Hasil
Diloo Nigaa Moomun Nahain To kuch Nahain

Khuda Uss Koom Ke Halit Nahain Budulta
Jisay Na Ho Khayal Khud Apne Halit aap Budunai Ka


I let you know one intresting thing about Mullas, Alama Iqbal Writes that
Sooboh Ke Namaaz Mai Peet (back) Mairee Kabai Ko Thee
Mai Imaam Muktadee Maira **** (father) Tha

aor humaary mulaas g nai roola daal dia k peet (back) Kabai (Qibla Sharif)ko kar k namaaz kaisai ho gahee (heheheheheee) phir Alama Iqbaal nai un ko bataya k JAHILOO Kabaa ka Mutlub Paab (father) be howta hai (heheheheee)

Something about Mullaaas in Punjabi, Dow (two) Mowlveyoon mai Murghee haram howtee hai. Mufaat ke Sharab Kazee Ko Halal.

*** Neem Hakeem Khutra e Jan
Neem Mullaa Khutra e Emaan

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Accountancy Forum - Accounting Discussions

It just shows that nothing is ideal.

And anyway you should know Arabic. It is the language in which your Holy Book was written.

Translation and interpretation in other languages I believe leaves much to be desired!

 

[Comet]

Agreed. So that is the reason we are limiting the discussion to the three empires selected by you as the next best examples of ideal Islamic state after the first 40 years.

And we have started with the Turkish empire as they had the Caliph.

You cant say the BEST examples but at least the examples.
For instance there was this era of Hazrat Umer bin Abdul Aziz in Ummayad dynasty that was pretty similar to the first 40 years. Then there was self mad Leader who did some good to the people.

 

[Comet]

The problem with people of your genre is that you are dreamers and you fantasise to gloss over the woes and imperfections!

There is NOTHING ideal in Life. It is an exercise of making the best opf a given situation with the morality as is ingrained in your genes and your experience.

Pakistan will NEVER be an IDEAL Islamic or non Islamic State. Nor will any other country in this world ever be an Ideal country. Sooner we realise it, the better.

Iqbal tried Ijithad there was a fatwa

And let me tell you the problem with people of your genre. You underestimate!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

And let me tell you the problem with people of your genre. You underestimate!

I don't undeestimate you.

You still have not answered any of the issues I raised.

Does indicate you know little.

YOur contention over the Islamic aspect and Jonnah

Your contention of the Caliphate and votes

And so on and so forth.

Each one has been a fudge!

 

[Vinod2070]

You cant say the BEST examples but at least the examples.
For instance there was this era of Hazrat Umer bin Abdul Aziz in Ummayad dynasty that was pretty similar to the first 40 years. Then there was self mad Leader who did some good to the people.

There can be no denying that Muslims must have had many good (or even great) rulers in the long period.

The idea of this discussion is not to discuss individual good rulers but the system that ensures that every ruler is a great ruler. That is what the ideal system is supposed to ensure.

It doesn't seem to have worked for the Turkish empire!

Were the other two any better?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The issue is democracy and the Caliphate!

And the ongoing Fudge!

 

[Comet]

I don't undeestimate you.

You still have not answered any of the issues I raised.

Does indicate you know little.

YOur contention over the Islamic aspect and Jonnah

Your contention of the Caliphate and votes

And so on and so forth.

Each one has been a fudge!

I told you about the voting system. I told you about the Caliphat's eligibility. What else do you want to know? What this stupid stuff like Genre. What are you suggesting I am a moron. I know nothing and you are the man who know every thing? If you were interested in this topic you wouldn't have been cross questioning.

 

[Comet]

There can be no denying that Muslims must have had many good (or even great) rulers in the long period.

The idea of this discussion is not to discuss individual good rulers but the system that ensures that every ruler is a great ruler. That is what the ideal system is supposed to ensure.

It doesn't seem to have worked for the Turkish empire!

Were the other two any better?

You are only looking at one angle the ruler angle. Look at the bright side. In the system given to us by the British how many years a man spend to get justice where as in Islamic system it was way fast.

 

[Vinod2070]

You are only looking at one angle the ruler angle. Look at the bright side. In the system given to us by the British how many years a man spend to get justice where as in Islamic system it was way fast.

Isn't the ruler angle very important? What is a Caliph?

Caliphs were often also referred to as Amīr al-Mu'minīn (أمير المؤمني&#1606 "Commander of the Faithful", Imam al-Ummah, Imam al-Mu'minīn (إمام المؤمني&#1606, or more colloquially, leader of the Muslims.

So is it acceptable for a Caliph to be an alcoholic and a lunatic? Can the "Amīr al-Mu'minīn" be that and still ensure a just Islamic society fair to Muslims as well as non-Muslims?

And I have given several facts besides just the ruler angle (and not only the democratic part but the qualities of the ruler). They don't seem to point to a great welfare state.

Again I am not holding any brief for the British system. It may not be perfect at all. But it is a man made imperfect system.

Why even compare it with a divine system?