Should we make a Petition to change the Devanagari script of Bangla!?

[kalu_miah]

you cannot get a more perfect example than that.

an objective assessment. that is new for me. get over it

Khair Bhai, courtesy is not too much to ask I think, the gentlemen has been following this thread with interest and seems to have a genuine interest in history, why not give him the benefit of doubt?

 

[M.M.Ali]

If I may ask a question, have you lived in Bangladesh or East Pakistan for extended time, other than short visits, if any?

I haven't. It was already Bangladesh when I was born.

I grew up in Europe and Pakistan, and now I'm studying South Asian history and politics in the US. However, my family is Bengali, and were involved in the Freedom Movement and Bengali-Pakistani politics. The person I mentioned in my previous post was my grandfather.

 

[kalu_miah]

I haven't. It was already Bangladesh when I was born.

I grew up in Europe and Pakistan, and now I'm studying South Asian history and politics in the US. However, my family is Bengali, and were involved in the Freedom Movement and Bengali-Pakistani politics. The person I mentioned in my previous post was my grandfather.

Thanks for telling us. Pleasure to make your acquaintance here. Welcome to the forum.

I found the following about your grand father Mahmud Ali:
Mahmud Ali (statesman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grande Strategy
Veteran leader Mahmud Ali passes away - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

Definitely he had an admirable political career. His role in Sylhet referendum was a valuable contribution to Bangladeshi people. Apparently he tried to do a lot of good for people in his career. And till the end he was loyal to Pakistan, a quality I also admire. My deep respects to your grand father for all that he has done for our people and country.

As for the script change, everyone has their opinion and I think we should respect people's opinion, whatever they may be.

About the script in Malaysia and Indonesia, they are currently using English or Latin/Roman alphabet with some modification since colonial times:
Malay alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Previously in this region Arabic alphabet was being used for Malay language since the introduction of Islam, before it was replaced by colonial rulers:
Jawi alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is still widely used in Malay speaking areas of Malaysia and Indonesia.

 

[Varunastra]

i was not surprised by this muck in bold from a person of UDAYCAMPUS' background. i will just ignore the dimwit bit for the same reason as such a tone has been utterly commonplace towards any idea with a "Muslim" flavour. i was a bit positively surprised at the commentary by @Joe Shearer on my "repertory" considering his same background - anyways i am just doing some light leg pulling

so 1971 war was not fought to save the bengali culture and language?was that not the main reason?

 

[Azizam]

Coming from a Sri Lankan, the ugliest people on Earth

LOL Who the **** is this prince?

BTW post your pic and impress me Mr.Universe.

 

[Hashshāshīn]

LOL Who the **** is this prince?

BTW post your pic and impress me Mr.Universe.

You can rest assured I look better than ape resembling swarthy Srilankans

And you were talking about complexes

 

[Azizam]

You can rest assured I look better than ape resembling swarthy Srilankans

And you were talking about complexes

That's a person belonged to a minority bro. One does not simply base stereotypes of a country based on minorities bro.

Again where's your picture? I really want to see you prince.

By the way, where are you from? As I recall some African country.

Why are you so butthurt about my post? It seems you are another wannabe-Middle Eastern.

 

[khair_ctg]

so 1971 war was not fought to save the bengali culture and language?was that not the main reason?

not even close

Khair Bhai, courtesy is not too much to ask I think, the gentlemen has been following this thread with interest and seems to have a genuine interest in history, why not give him the benefit of doubt?

i'm really not aware if i'm sounding more hostile than i am in this case. i welcome @Joe Shearer 's contribution and participation in the discussion. it's just an observation that this level of objective discussion has been rare for me, with UDAYCAMPUS proving my point with his posts. be assured there is no grudge held against Joe Shearer or anyone like him

 

[M.M.Ali]

Thanks for telling us. Pleasure to make your acquaintance here. Welcome to the forum.

I found the following about your grand father Mahmud Ali:
Mahmud Ali (statesman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grande Strategy
Veteran leader Mahmud Ali passes away - Newspaper - DAWN

Definitely he had an admirable political career. His role in Sylhet referendum was a valuable contribution to Bangladeshi people. Apparently he tried to do a lot of good for people in his career. And till the end he was loyal to Pakistan, a quality I also admire. My deep respects to your grand father for all that he has done for our people and country.

As for the script change, everyone has their opinion and I think we should respect people's opinion, whatever they may be.

About the script in Malaysia and Indonesia, they are currently using English or Latin/Roman alphabet with some modification since colonial times:
Malay alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Previously in this region Arabic alphabet was being used for Malay language since the introduction of Islam, before it was replaced by colonial rulers:
Jawi alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is still widely used in Malay speaking areas of Malaysia and Indonesia.

Thank you, I'm glad to be part of this discussion.

I stand corrected, I was wrong about the script. And yes, I do believe that people have a right to their own opinion. However, I still hold that religion is not bound by language and script. Arabic itself is not a Islamic language and there is no reason to adopt its script. I believe that Islam is a tolerant religion that embraces diversity. We should accept who we are while still identifying with whatever religion we may belong to. Also, there are many non-Muslims who may belong to a particular ethnicity and it would be unfair to try and impose something they may not be in favour of.

By the way, if you're interested here's one of my grandfather's last interviews before his death. I can't post links yet, but the video is titled "GEO Jawab Deyh - Mahmud Ali interview (August, 2006)" on YouTube.

00:42 Assam and Sylhet Referendum
04:12 Bangla Language Movement
08:08 21 Points, 1954 Elections and Ayub Era
23:28 1970 Elections and 1971 War
30:25 Mujib Trial and separation of Bangladesh

 

[M.M.Ali]

so 1971 war was not fought to save the bengali culture and language?was that not the main reason?

Bangla was already a national language along with Urdu in 1954. The independence movement was primarily about politics and economics. Mujib won the 1970 elections and was declared Prime Minister Designate. The assembly was not allowed to convene in March 1971 and this lead to riots all across united Pakistan.

 

[khair_ctg]

Mahmud Ali was a Bengali-Assamese politician in British India, in East Bengal/East Pakistan, and then in modern Pakistan. He was the secretary-general of the All-India Muslim League (Assam) with Bhashani as its president. During the Freedom Movement he worked towards making Assam a part of the eastern wing of Pakistan but a referendum was not giving in the province. He later concentrated his efforts to make Sylhet a part of Pakistan and the referendum was a success..After the creation of Pakistan, and after Jinnah and Liaquat passed away, he left the Muslim League as he saw the government drifting away from the needs of the people. He then founded Pakistan's first secular political party the Ganatantri Dal. The Dal demanded equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, abolition of feudalism, rights for women, and the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu. He also published a Bangla language newspaper the Nao Belal which played an important role in propagating Bengali rights. The Dal later merged with the United Front and it won the elections defeating the Muslim League in 1954. He was the sole member of the assembly to speak out against the 'One-Unit' scheme which divided Pakistan into two provinces - East and West Pakistan. After Ayub Khan and the bureacracy imposed military rule in 1958 he spent the next decade fighting for the restoration on parliamentary democracy. He also supported Miss Jinnah in the Presidential elections against Ayub. Ali believed that Bengalis were more politically advanced and wanted a united Pakistan where Bengalis would guide the country with their majority and often said that "the western provinces need Bengal politically and Bengal needs the western provinces economically." He did not approve of Mujib's politics but argued for his release after the Fall of Dacca.

Bangla Language and Script

Mahmud Ali was strongly against any effort to impose Arabic as a language in Pakistan, and did not favour any attempt to change or "Islamasize" the language.

I'm of the same opinion. I think it betrays a degree of insecurity and an inferiority complex when speaking in favour of this absurd change. Also, those advocating the adoption of the Arabic/Farsi script are undermining both their culture and heritage, and the tolerant nature of Islam. Do we hear of Indonesians or Malaysians arguing in favour of this?

Another thing I don't understand is this half-baked attempt to adopt something which religion has nothing to do with. I mean why just change the script? Is the language itself not Indo-Aryan? Either way, I think this childish idea should be tossed away.

Arabic has nothing to do with Islam itself.

Lastly, just in case you were wondering, I'm an ethnic Bengali who grew up in Pakistan.

i appreciate your presence in this discussion. when we are discussing changing of scripts, the issue of official patronage of at least a parallel script for bengali is implied. how about unofficial use of the persian-arabic script for bangla? isn’t it as old as bengal’s muslim community itself? what part of persian-arabic scripts “undermine culture and heritage” - when not only persian-urdu-arabic were used as separate languages (arabic for recital purposes) but the persian-arabic script was used for bengali as well? in this light how sensible was protesting the re-infusion of these muslim mediums since getting dropped in the brahmin renaissance era development of the official bangla?

there is a wealth of information available outside and on this forum. @kalu_mian has provided information here commendably.

since indonesians and malaysians were stated rhetorically in your statement, did they have practise of farsi as an official language and urdu for centuries? they did not; however they had their native jawi written in arabic script. would you call their entire older generations arab wannabes, for practicing their language which happened to be in arabic script? would you call themselves arab wannabes if they still practise that language?

this discussion does not concern facts like that Quran was revealed in arabic. and this discussion does not even warrant discussing whether non-arabic languages are non-Islamic or whether non-arabic script is non-Islamic (the answer is of course no).

 

[Joe Shearer]

i appreciate your presence in this discussion. when we are discussing changing of scripts, the issue of official patronage of at least a parallel script for bengali is implied. how about unofficial use of the persian-arabic script for bangla? isn’t it as old as bengal’s muslim community itself? what part of persian-arabic scripts “undermine culture and heritage” - when not only persian-urdu-arabic were used as separate languages (arabic for recital purposes) but the pecrsian-arabic script was used for bengali as well? in this light how sensible was protesting the re-infusion of these muslim mediums since getting dropped in the brahmin renaissance era development of the official bangla?

there is a wealth of information available outside and on this forum. @kalu_miah has provided information here commendably.

1. Unofficial use of the Persian-Arabic script for Bangla:
   
   The sources cited in this thread* uniformly inform us that such a script was tried again and again, and failed to take hold.
2. Isn't it as old as Bengal's Muslim community itself?
   
   The same sources cited* above inform us that these efforts were made occasionally, sporadically, at the outset, when the first rule of the Delhi Sultanate started, with no success.
3. what part of persian-arabic scripts “undermine culture and heritage” - when not only persian-urdu-arabic were used as separate languages (arabic for recital purposes) but the persian-arabic script was used for bengali as well?
   
   Please see the points above. Musulmani Bangla was a reaction to the artificial Sanskritisation of the language by Halhed and his Brahmin advisors at the Fort William college. The language that existed prior to this artificial Sanskritisation contained a significant borrowing of Persian and Arabic loan words; however, at the time of the reaction, there was a swing to the other extreme, and even more Persian and Arabic words were introduced than were prevalent before.
4. in this light how sensible was protesting the re-infusion of these muslim mediums since getting dropped in the brahmin renaissance era development of the official bangla?
   
   The dropping was of words, the vocabulary was affected, and not the script.

The sources provided have been cited by me*, in this forum, extensively. Please read the citations. All your assertions are amply discussed there. It is sad that these points are being made again and again, in the teeth of the evidence quoted by you yourselves.
____________________________________________________________________________
* My extensive citations started on page 29 of this thread, and continued. Please refer to those.
____________________________________________________________________________

since indonesians and malaysians were stated rhetorically in your statement, did they have practise of farsi as an official language and urdu for centuries? they did not; however they had their native jawi written in arabic script. would you call their entire older generations arab wannabes, for practicing their language which happened to be in arabic script? would you call themselves arab wannabes if they still practise that language?

this discussion does not concern facts like that Quran was revealed in arabic. and this discussion does not even warrant discussing whether non-arabic languages are non-Islamic or whether non-arabic script is non-Islamic (the answer is of course no).

No comment.

 

[Joe Shearer]

the Muslim community as whole in South Asia is as much a racial community as it is a religious community. religion/faith is not the only thing that separates the Muslims from the non-Muslims of South Asia. the converts and the settlers (who converted at another place) have mixed up in the melting pot called the South Asian Muslims. and so whether you are talking about the nastaliq-Punjabi, or subcontinental Farsi, or even a nastaliq-Bangla, they would all contain the influences that culminated into the South Asian Muslim community.

Eaton's research indicates that the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal at least was not due to migration, but to a demographic explosion linked to the rapid expansion of agriculture in east Bengal.

He has clearly established that efforts at using a different script had not succeeded in the early stages of Muslim rule of Bengal.

He has clearly differentiated the South Asian Muslims in general from the Bengali Muslims

an Urdu language for example would not exist if it was not for the Sanskrit heritage and the organic fusion of the cultures of the settlers and the converts (so i'm not saying it was only settlers who formed the Muslim community like it happened with European settlers in the New World).

what has also happened, as it has happened throughout world history, a high culture is more inclusive and takes the place of more fragmented or underdeveloped ones. this was seen when a lot of the Mughals and Pathans practised the more sophisticated Farsi in more formal contexts over their various Turkic languages and dialects from Central Asia.

in Bengal, after colonialism started, Farsi was politically displaced. and it existed rather informally within the Muslims. if you are discussing about Bengali Muslims, you cannot attempt to exterminate the Farsi and Urdu and Arabic languages. if you are, you are just isolating and ignoring the Bengali Muslim heritage. just like the Hindu-Brahmin intelligentsia was when they gained sole power to develop the current Bengali script and to call what is official Bengali language

The point has been made again and again (by researchers, in scholarly analysis, not by me) that the attempted amalgamations failed initially, that they got another opportunity during the Mughal period, that the language contained a lot of Persian and Arabic loan words, without any evidence of the use of the script, and that it was the generations of the late 19th century and the early 20th century which took up Urdu and Farsi once more, including the script, as a reaction to the Sanskritisation of Bengali by Halhed and his assistant pundits of the Fort William College.

The extensive use of Urdu and Farsi, to a much greater extent than earlier prevalent, was dated then from the last few generations only.

 

[khair_ctg]

Eaton's research indicates that the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal at least was not due to migration, but to a demographic explosion linked to the rapid expansion of agriculture in east Bengal.

What one finds, rather, is an expanding agrarian civilization, whose
cultural counterpart was the growth of the cult of Allah. This larger movement was composed of several
interwoven processes: the eastward movement and settlement of colonizers from points west, the
incorporation of frontier tribal peoples into the expanding agrarian civilization, and the natural population
growth that accompanied the diffusion or the intensification of wet rice agriculture and the production of
surplus food grains. {Eaton}

the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal is attributed to migration, incorporating indigenous people into the expanding civilization, and natural population growth supported by the resources available. what makes you leave migration out?

He has clearly established that efforts at using a different script had not succeeded in the early stages of Muslim rule of Bengal.

what made them "not succeed"? is it the innate difficultly of doing that, that was not the case with say Persian or Punjabi? there is no reason to ponder whether *some* Bengali was written in Persian-Arabic script, iwo in a script that a settler "ashraf" could read and in a sound an indigenous "atrap" could understand. but one of the instances when there was some kind of official backing to standardize it was in the 1600s and an example of such work was by writer Mohammad Khan on Hussein (ra) as referenced from BD Encyclopedia. do you consider similar works a failure? if you say so, because of lesser prevalence later on compared to the Hindus' Bengali, i would agree.

He has clearly differentiated the South Asian Muslims in general from the Bengali Muslims

Yes, the entire book of Eaton's "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier" studies Muslim civilization of Bengal in separation. the large population of Muslim Bengal for example is an important point of study. however the parallels with other Mughal/Islamicate centres of influence of the subcontinent, like Avadh and Punjab, and even Maharashtra, were discussed in how Mughal/Islamicate influence grew even when in independence from the imperial administration in northern India (Delhi and so on)

 

[Joe Shearer]

What one finds, rather, is an expanding agrarian civilization, whose
cultural counterpart was the growth of the cult of Allah. This larger movement was composed of several
interwoven processes: the eastward movement and settlement of colonizers from points west, the
incorporation of frontier tribal peoples into the expanding agrarian civilization, and the natural population
growth that accompanied the diffusion or the intensification of wet rice agriculture and the production of
surplus food grains. {Eaton}

the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal is attributed to migration, incorporating indigenous people into the expanding civilization, and natural population growth supported by the resources available. what makes you leave migration out?

I am separating your three points for convenience.

Here the difference between the conventional 'Migration' theory used to account for the huge preponderance of Muslims in the east of Bengal and what Eaton is referring to is that the conventional theory relates to supposed mass migration from central Asia and from Afghanistan. This does not seem to have happened in Bengal.

Instead, what Eaton is clearly referring to, in the context of his passage, is migration from the western parts of Bengal itself, where the shift away of the waters to eastern branches led to the diminution of trade and industry, as well as an underlying diminution of agriculture. This is when the early moves of European traders to the banks of the Hooghly - the Danish in Srirampore, the French in Chandannagar, the Portuguese and the Dutch in Chinsurah - proved to be false starts due to the gradual drying up of that distributary.

what made them "not succeed"? is it the innate difficultly of doing that, that was not the case with say Persian or Punjabi? there is no reason to ponder whether *some* Bengali was written in Persian-Arabic script, iwo in a script that a settler "ashraf" could read and in a sound an indigenous "atrap" could understand. but one of the instances when there was some kind of official backing to standardize it was in the 1600s and an example of such work was by writer Mohammad Khan on Hussein (ra) as referenced from BD Encyclopedia. do you consider similar works a failure? if you say so, because of lesser prevalence later on compared to the Hindus' Bengali, i would agree.

My interpretation is that the need did not exist.

The ashraf spoke Persian, and, where appropriate, Arabic. They had no need to speak Bengali. The Bengali-speaking Muslim formed a very small community, and there were not enough numbers for them to make a difference, or to lead to a different dialect.

As the dates of your reference makes it clear, it was only in Mughal times that the expansion of population occurred, and there was an extensive use of Persian and Arabic terms in the Bengali language. Eaton claims that there was no official backing for these efforts by the Mughal administrators, and no widespread usage took place. The existence of some work does not indicate a strong base or a mass-based language.