What's new

Should we make a Petition to change the Devanagari script of Bangla!?

Are we ready for this? Will you support the Bangladesh people for this CHANGE?


  • Total voters
    123
the Muslim community as whole in South Asia is as much a racial community as it is a religious community. religion/faith is not the only thing that separates the Muslims from the non-Muslims of South Asia. the converts and the settlers (who converted at another place) have mixed up in the melting pot called the South Asian Muslims. and so whether you are talking about the nastaliq-Punjabi, or subcontinental Farsi, or even a nastaliq-Bangla, they would all contain the influences that culminated into the South Asian Muslim community. an Urdu language for example would not exist if it was not for the Sanskrit heritage and the organic fusion of the cultures of the settlers and the converts (so i'm not saying it was only settlers who formed the Muslim community like it happened with European settlers in the New World).

what has also happened, as it has happened throughout world history, a high culture is more inclusive and takes the place of more fragmented or underdeveloped ones. this was seen when a lot of the Mughals and Pathans practised the more sophisticated Farsi in more formal contexts over their various Turkic languages and dialects from Central Asia.

in Bengal, after colonialism started, Farsi was politically displaced. and it existed rather informally within the Muslims. if you are discussing about Bengali Muslims, you cannot attempt to exterminate the Farsi and Urdu and Arabic languages. if you are, you are just isolating and ignoring the Bengali Muslim heritage. just like the Hindu-Brahmin intelligentsia was when they gained sole power to develop the current Bengali script and to call what is official Bengali language

India (pre-independence) was the largest melting-pot of cultures in the world (invasions, settlements,etc)
Your Bengalis look exactly like our Bengalis, I am sure there are some muslims of mid-estern descent, but majority is racially similar.

All the south-asian countries have very racially diverse people on the whole. In India there are people darker than the darkest people in the world and fairer than the fairest. Not that it matters.

Same goes for languages, Bengali is older than urdu and has no relation with Farsi.
 
.
@Joe Shearer the wrong impression you have are:
1. that I have not read the book, because I did read it
2. that there are any Bengali chauvinists here that are trying to portray a false image of history

I personally believe I am no chauvinist, if I have gaps in my knowledge, anyone is welcome to correct me.

You can quote the whole book if you like in multiple posts, not sure what you are trying to prove. The book is online, anyone can go and read it as a whole. I believe the author went to original sources and this is an excellent thesis work that shows how Islam spread in Bengal, much better than what I have read in other South Asian sources, specially the ones written by Hindu historians, most of whom I believe were either biased or plain incompetent or they lacked a sense of context about how the events in Bengal in particular or in South Asia in general were intimately connected to events in inner (Central Asia). There are exceptions though, such as the more recent work by Sunil Kumar, which I quoted here:
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate

You are welcome to debate any point that you may have about Bengal's history based on this book or other sources.
 
. .
@Joe Shearer the wrong impression you have are:
1. that I have not read the book, because I did read it
2. that there are any Bengali chauvinists here that are trying to portray a false image of history

I personally believe I am no chauvinist, if I have gaps in my knowledge, anyone is welcome to correct me.

You can quote the whole book if you like in multiple posts, not sure what you are trying to prove. The book is online, anyone can go and read it as a whole. I believe the author went to original sources and this is an excellent thesis work that shows how Islam spread in Bengal, much better than what I have read in other South Asian sources, specially the ones written by Hindu historians, most of whom I believe were either biased or plain incompetent or they lacked a sense of context about how the events in Bengal in particular or in South Asia in general were intimately connected to events in inner (Central Asia). There are exceptions though, such as the more recent work by Sunil Kumar, which I quoted here:
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate

You are welcome to debate any point that you may have about Bengal's history based on this book or other sources.

Hang on for a moment.

Both you and my Indian friends have the impression that this was some kind of exposure of your position.

Please read my repeated statement. I have cited, again and again, at one stage, before every post, your own post where you said that I had a wrong impression. There was a question, had you read the book, and there was a statement, that it would appall a chauvinist.

Having read the book - and thank you very kindly for introducing me to Eaton - I think that he has made a dramatic point: that the phenomenon of an overwhelmingly Muslim population in this isolated part of the world is due to a very special kind of agrarian expansion that occurred here, very late in the day, not very early. He has taken into account the four conventional reasons for this population,
  1. Migration
  2. Forcible conversion
  3. Patronage
  4. Social liberation
and has carefully, systematically dissected each of them, and disproved them. What is left is only the clear dating of the expansion of the Muslim population, which he assigns to as late as the Mughal period, an astounding assertion, contrary to everything that we had held earlier - certainly contrary to what I believed before reading this wholly persuasive book.

Since you have read the book, the question arises - what exactly is it that I seek to convey to you?

First, that it is a refutation of various chauvinist views that we have read here. Ironically, it shatters the illusions of both Muslim chauvinists, that the population was due to mass migration, that the Muslims of Bengal are really migrants who immigrated en masse, and the Hindu chauvinists, who claim variously that this population came into being due to the threat of violence, or that they are all former Hindus and Buddhists who converted due to either, slightingly, a desire to get out of the oppressed status as non-Muslims that they occupied, or, on the lines of the Ambedkar/Dalit argument, that they sought Social Liberation (my view till now).

All of us who advocated this, that or the other are now sitting here with egg on our faces, some of us, who have just read the book, with a happy smile under the yolk.

Second, that it is no longer a question of a long-standing composite Muslim Bengali culture, a view that was put forward so earnestly and sincerely by various sections, the @asad71 and @khair_ctg view among others, if I understood them correctly. Far from being long-standing, this was as late as the 16th century, perhaps later, and is after the Mughal conquest of Bengal. It is after the shift eastwards of the main channel of the Ganga eastwards, and the consequent opening up of vast forest areas for exploitation and conversion to agricultural, and the directly linked sudden expansion of the population under conditions of greater security and prosperity.

Third, that one of us, and I shall not name the individual, lands up with, not egg, but some other yellow and in that particular case vile-smelling substance on the face. Eaton proves decisively, and that is the reason for my extensive citations, that there was nothing like a composite Bengalo-Persian cultural composite which was built up in the centuries that passed between Bakhtiyar Khalji and the partitions of Bengal. Every citation, every paragraph of his book makes it very clear that it was the original culture and language that prevailed over the invaders, and that what remained, before the Mughal intervention, was a largely traditional and native tradition of kingship and rule, overlaid by the necessities of Islamic rule, the striking of coins and reading of the khutba, the legal system, in some aspects, and the influences at the very top, at the level of the Sultan himself, other than during the interregnum, if I may call it that, of Ganesh and his son. The Husain Shahis apparently were content to rule, and to allow some aspects of the earlier traditions of kingship to return, rather than stick to the straight and narrow path recommended by the Sufi savants.

Fourth, I believe that there are chauvinists here, of both sides, and I am wholly ready to believe, based on your remarks in your latest post, that you are not one of them. I also agree with you that the work is brilliant, nothing short of that, and has entirely converted me to this point of view. Your assertion that other south Asian histories - you mention Hindu, but I beg to draw your attention to this being a general malaise, not leaving out the Christians (Europeans) or Muslims (Indian, Persian, Turkish, Arabic) - were either biased, or plain incompetent or simply lacked any sense of context about how events unfolded, and about the intimate connection at some points of time between Central Asia and Bengal, are perfectly valid.

Incidentally, I read those parts with a sense of disbelief and a dawning enlightenment, as having thrown clear and lucid light on some aspects that were simply not making sense without this connection having existed.

If these views are yours, you are clearly an unbiased observer and analyst, perhaps even an historian by education, and also clearly not a chauvinist, at least not here , not now. I have no reason to doubt your statement that you hold these views.

I sincerely hope that this will set to rest the concept that what is being advocated in this thread is justified by tradition and past practice.

What remains is the path that the people of Bangladesh set for themselves in future, as a sovereign, independent nation. If they set themselves to reminding themselves of their membership of the Islamic community by changing the script in which Bengali is written, it is their sovereign desire, and good luck to them. There is nothing that anyone else can or should say. That, however, will be decided outside this forum. If such a debate arises, I, for one, shall watch it from the galleries with the keenest academic interest and no personal concern or emotional involvement, as being, ultimately, none of my business.

I hope that this will make my own position clear, and also the reason for such extensive citation. Far from my correcting gaps in your knowledge, this is an acknowledgement that gaps in my own knowledge have been corrected. However, it also puts to rest the canard that Bengalo-Persian culture prevailed in the centuries past. Instead, it makes it clear that it was at best restricted to the very short Mughal rule over Bengal, and throws new light on the Bengal Renaissance, correcting the impression that it was an entirely innovative, Eurocentric breakthrough and also the impression that it was a Bengali Hindu revenge on the Muslim elite, taken under cover of British patronage.

bengali was the language of the majority. but this Bengali means many accents and dialects and heavy Arbi-Farsi use. the ensuing Sanskritization of Bangla during colonial period even caused this Musalman Bangla to be considered as a dialect of Urdu, rather than a dialect of Bangla. and whether a standardized and written form of nastaliq-Bangla was developed or not in pre-colonial times, a standardized and written form apparently did not survive the colonial and Brahmin zamindari era.

I think Eaton has put this argument in its place. There is no need to spend time uselessly arguing over this obvious fallacy or to indulge in this sort of fantasising:

whether a standardized and written form of nastaliq-Bangla was developed or not in pre-colonial times, a standardized and written form apparently did not survive the colonial and Brahmin zamindari era.

Poppycock.


there was an agitation to elevate the status of Bangla above it's rightful place, i.e. as a provincial language to a national language. if you want to argue Urdu had a base in East Bengal/Entire Bengal, it is pointless to compare the region with another. in any case, refer to my comments at the bottom here:

Tribute to Language movement | Page 12
 
Last edited:
.
and has carefully, systematically dissected each of them, and disproved them. What is left is only the clear dating of the expansion of the Muslim population, which he assigns to as late as the Mughal period, an astounding assertion, contrary to everything that we had held earlier - certainly contrary to what I believed before reading this wholly persuasive book.

Since you have read the book, the question arises - what exactly is it that I seek to convey to you?

First, that it is a refutation of various chauvinist views that we have read here. Ironically, it shatters the illusions of both Muslim chauvinists, that the population was due to mass migration, that the Muslims of Bengal are really migrants who immigrated en masse, and the Hindu chauvinists, who claim variously that this population came into being due to the threat of violence, or that they are all former Hindus and Buddhists who converted due to either, slightingly, a desire to get out of the oppressed status as non-Muslims that they occupied, or, on the lines of the Ambedkar/Dalit argument, that they sought Social Liberation (my view till now).

All of us who advocated this, that or the other are now sitting here with egg on our faces, some of us, who have just read the book, with a happy smile under the yolk.

Second, that it is no longer a question of a long-standing composite Muslim Bengali culture, a view that was put forward so earnestly and sincerely by various sections, the @asad71 and @khair_ctg view among others, if I understood them correctly. Far from being long-standing, this was as late as the 16th century, perhaps later, and is after the Mughal conquest of Bengal. It is after the shift eastwards of the main channel of the Ganga eastwards, and the consequent opening up of vast forest areas for exploitation and conversion to agricultural, and the directly linked sudden expansion of the population under conditions of greater security and prosperity.

Third, that one of us, and I shall not name the individual, lands up with, not egg, but some other yellow and in that particular case vile-smelling substance on the face. Eaton proves decisively, and that is the reason for my extensive citations, that there was nothing like a composite Bengalo-Persian cultural composite which was built up in the centuries that passed between Bakhtiyar Khalji and the partitions of Bengal. Every citation, every paragraph of his book makes it very clear that it was the original culture and language that prevailed over the invaders, and that what remained, before the Mughal intervention, was a largely traditional and native tradition of kingship and rule, overlaid by the necessities of Islamic rule, the striking of coins and reading of the khutba, the legal system, in some aspects, and the influences at the very top, at the level of the Sultan himself, other than during the interregnum, if I may call it that, of Ganesh and his son. The Husain Shahis apparently were content to rule, and to allow some aspects of the earlier traditions of kingship to return, rather than stick to the straight and narrow path recommended by the Sufi savants.

Fourth, I believe that there are chauvinists here, of both sides, and I am wholly ready to believe, based on your remarks in your latest post, that you are not one of them. I also agree with you that the work is brilliant, nothing short of that, and has entirely converted me to this point of view. Your assertion that other south Asian histories - you mention Hindu, but I beg to draw your attention to this being a general malaise, not leaving out the Christians (Europeans) or Muslims (Indian, Persian, Turkish, Arabic) - were either biased, or plain incompetent or simply lacked any sense of context about how events unfolded, and about the intimate connection at some points of time between Central Asia and Bengal, are perfectly valid.

Incidentally, I read those parts with a sense of disbelief and a dawning enlightenment, as having thrown clear and lucid light on some aspects that were simply not making sense without this connection having existed.

If these views are yours, you are clearly an unbiased observer and analyst, perhaps even an historian by education, and also clearly not a chauvinist, at least not here , not now. I have no reason to doubt your statement that you hold these views.

I sincerely hope that this will set to rest the concept that what is being advocated in this thread is justified by tradition and past practice.

What remains is the path that the people of Bangladesh set for themselves in future, as a sovereign, independent nation. If they set themselves to reminding themselves of their membership of the Islamic community by changing the script in which Bengali is written, it is their sovereign desire, and good luck to them. There is nothing that anyone else can or should say. That, however, will be decided outside this forum. If such a debate arises, I, for one, shall watch it from the galleries with the keenest academic interest and no personal concern or emotional involvement, as being, ultimately, none of my business.

I hope that this will make my own position clear, and also the reason for such extensive citation. Far from my correcting gaps in your knowledge, this is an acknowledgement that gaps in my own knowledge have been corrected. However, it also puts to rest the canard that Bengalo-Persian culture prevailed in the centuries past. Instead, it makes it clear that it was at best restricted to the very short Mughal rule over Bengal, and throws new light on the Bengal Renaissance, correcting the impression that it was an entirely innovative, Eurocentric breakthrough and also the impression that it was a Bengali Hindu revenge on the Muslim elite, taken under cover of British patronage.



I think Eaton has put this argument in its place. There is no need to spend time uselessly arguing over this obvious fallacy or to indulge in this sort of fantasising:



Poppycock.
it's inconvenient for you now and that is understandable, but give it some time.

i don't think any of the Bangladeshis here asserted that only en masse migration resulted in the Bengal Muslim population. they only asserted it is one of the major factors in response to a total denial of that by Indian chauvinists. the highlighted portion (if i understand you correctly) would not make sense if we agree that the thrust of the Muslim population growth in fact happened during the Mughals. the low total Muslim population in the Turkic-Afghan period itself explains that. and since you are looking for a Persian-Bengali composite culture. the prevalence of the Musalman Bangla, Farsi and Urdu should be enough examples of that, and of Persian-Indic culture overall forming the Hindustani or South Asian Muslim culture.
 
.
it's inconvenient for you now and that is understandable, but give it some time.

i don't think any of the Bangladeshis here asserted that only en masse migration resulted in the Bengal Muslim population. they only asserted it is one of the major factors in response to a total denial of that by Indian chauvinists. the highlighted portion (if i understand you correctly) would not make sense if we agree that the thrust of the Muslim population growth in fact happened during the Mughals. the low total Muslim population in the Turkic-Afghan period itself explains that. and since you are looking for a Persian-Bengali composite culture. the prevalence of the Musalman Bangla, Farsi and Urdu should be enough examples of that, and of Persian-Indic culture overall forming the Hindustani or South Asian Muslim culture.

"Inconvenience" is not a factor either in my professional life or my academic pursuits, sad to say, considering how much time you seem to be spending on it. Which Bangladeshis precisely asserted that only en masse migration resulted in the Bengali Muslim population, or rather, to be fair, the bulk of the Bengali Muslim population is for you to explore. It is there, in clear print. Nor, from the excerpts that I have reproduced for those who will not read the inconvenient, perhaps including you, was it a major factor, by any measure. Here, I am considering the overwhelming bulk of the Bengali Muslim population having been in the east, with much less in the west. Considering that the seats of Muslim power were always in the west, until the Mughals set up Jahangirabad, I don't see why anyone even needs to read Eaton to figure out that an immigrant population located in the west of the province could not be contributing to the vast majority in the east. It is not, in this case, an Indian chauvinist denying it, but an American historian author of an excellent treatise*. Somehow, that salvo of yours lacks conviction.

Yes, the highlighted portion means precisely that: there was no composite culture during Turco-Afghan times, and each and every citation from the book shows that clearly, beyond the point of possible misunderstanding or of avoiding the "inconvenient". But your response is to agree that there was a low Muslim population during the Turco-Afghan period, and then to point to Musalman Bangla, Farsi and Urdu. How did that get there, considering that all the information that we have is contrary? A rabbit out of a hat is not inconvenient; the word is inconceivable. That culture did not exist in the way that chauvinists in this thread have described it.

What may be "inconvenient" is the realisation that many of the misconceptions about Muslim rule were based on retrospective myth-making. Eaton has dealt with it rather well; such flights of fancy are to be seen not merely among day-dreaming Muslim narratives which were written decades after the events described, but also among the romantic, fuzzy thinkers who are trying to create a brave new world out of thin air in this thread.

___________________________________________________________________________
*Incidentally, Eaton specifically rules out west to east migration, so that leaves us pondering the inconvenient possibility that the creators of the composite culture vanished into thin air.
 
Last edited:
.
@kalu_miah

Although Eaton's thesis is wholly convincing in the case of east Bengal, there is still a disturbing quiggle in one's mind about the universality of his explanation. He explains the creation of an unexpectedly large Muslim population isolated from other major centres of Muslim population through the expanding agricultural frontier and its demographic consequences. Presumably, there are similar reasons to explain the existence of two other pockets widely separated from other Muslim populations, the Malays of the peninsula and the Indonesians. Was there such a shifting of the agricultural frontier in those countries as well? If not, what explains the wholesale conversion of the population in those places? Brute force is quite clearly ruled out.
 
.
@kalu_miah

Although Eaton's thesis is wholly convincing in the case of east Bengal, there is still a disturbing quiggle in one's mind about the universality of his explanation. He explains the creation of an unexpectedly large Muslim population isolated from other major centres of Muslim population through the expanding agricultural frontier and its demographic consequences. Presumably, there are similar reasons to explain the existence of two other pockets widely separated from other Muslim populations, the Malays of the peninsula and the Indonesians. Was there such a shifting of the agricultural frontier in those countries as well? If not, what explains the wholesale conversion of the population in those places? Brute force is quite clearly ruled out.
this Eaton work for a large part revolves around the eastward moving empires into Bengal. i don't see how you are denying this theme all over this Eaton work and this obvious trend that did take place. i hope you also noticed some parts in this Eaton work talking about uncomfortable experiences of newly-settled Muslims in the more highly vegetated and humid Bengal. to deny ANY eastward migration to Bengal is to deny all administrations, and all the communities that grew under them, from Bakhtiyar Khilji there on. the only way to support that theory is by imagining there was an invisible shield stopping any Muslim migrants before reaching Bengal, except a handful of military leaders and peers to do the converting of masses before heading back out of Bengal during their lifetimes.

the Bengali language and vocabulary associated with Muslims, i.e. Musalman Bangla, and the prevalence of Farsi, Urdu and Arabic languages itself supports ANY migration, besides all the Muslim cultural elements prevalent among Bengali Muslims - it is not even a subject of concern. what is of concern and can be debated is how much migration. if you are asking "where is the Persian-Bengali composite culture?" i would say that you have been looking at it. because of an almost exclusive dependence on Farsi-Urdu-Arabic, arguably there was relatively more influence of those three 'Muslim languages' in Bengal even compared to places like Punjab, where the Musalman Punjabi language itself had a robust patronage from and development by the Muslim
 
.
@
Joe Shearer,
khair_ctg,
kalu_miah

Fols need to be noted, in my view:
a. Eastern and Southern parts of BD used to be North Arakan under the Sultanate of Arakan and Buddhist Moghs till these were annexed under Gov Shayesta Khan,1658. They were predominantly Muslims of Arab/semi-Arab origin. Physical features, local dialect,some customs and temperament of these Bengalee Muslims are different from those of West orNorth.
b. Almost all conversions in Hindustan,including Bengal, took place among high-cast/Brahmins/Khatryas. The reason is simple. These people wanted to continue in military and civil service - and prosper.These convertees invariably retained their tribal/family/cast/ja'at identity. In BD we have Muslim Thakurs,Biswas,Mazumdar,Chaudhury, Khastagir, etc.
c. Not so much Mughal-Uzbek as Afghan-Persian settlement took place in BD.The Suri dynasty was ours. Having been cornered into the east, the Afghan-Persians had long struggled against the Mughal-Uzbeks from their power base here. Most of our Muslim elites were not only Persian speaking, but were Shias too. With passage of time Urdu came into use although Persian had continued to be the official/court language. Time also allowed the predominant Sunni sect to overpower with the result that none now call himself a Shiah.
d. Diet,customs and celibacy gradually depleted the Hindu and Buddhist population while Muslims multiplied.
 
.
this Eaton work for a large part revolves around the eastward moving empires into Bengal. i don't see how you are denying this theme all over this Eaton work and this obvious trend that did take place. i hope you also noticed some parts in this Eaton work talking about uncomfortable experiences of newly-settled Muslims in the more highly vegetated and humid Bengal. to deny ANY eastward migration to Bengal is to deny all administrations, and all the communities that grew under them, from Bakhtiyar Khilji there on. the only way to support that theory is by imagining there was an invisible shield stopping any Muslim migrants before reaching Bengal, except a handful of military leaders and peers to do the converting of masses before heading back out of Bengal during their lifetimes.

Apparently your reading is as casual and relaxed as your manners.

I was referring to Easton's recurring assertion that there was no migration from the western part of Bengal to the eastern part of Bengal, and you seem to have misunderstood this entirely, perhaps because you have not bothered to read the original or the citation carefully.

the Bengali language and vocabulary associated with Muslims, i.e. Musalman Bangla, and the prevalence of Farsi, Urdu and Arabic languages itself supports ANY migration, besides all the Muslim cultural elements prevalent among Bengali Muslims - it is not even a subject of concern.

A circular argument.

If there is no proof of eastward migration, the Bengali language and vocabulary associated with Muslims, i.e., Mussalman Bangla, is a living witness to that migration; if there is no proof of the Bengali language and vocabulary being exclusively associated with Muslims in any manner, then the fact of eastward migration shows that such an exclusively Muslim dialect must have existed.

All the features that you have mentioned are of recent origin, at most dating to the Mughals, and in fact, there is counterbalancing evidence:

During the seventeenth century, however, the empire’s foreign character steadily diminished. By the end of that century, just over a third of the nobility were of known Iranian or Turkish ancestry, and fewer than a quarter of these were foreign-born immigrants.[19] Already by Jahangir’s reign there had emerged in the imperial corps an important and growing section of Muslims who, while claiming a paternal ancestry beyond the Khyber, had been born in India of Indian mothers. These persons not only spoke a form of vernacular Hindi-Urdu as their “mother tongue”; they also carried with them deeply held assumptions about life and death that for several centuries had been nurtured in North India within the matrix of Rajput culture.

Thus, for example, when the Mughal governor Qasim Khan faced imminent defeat in a bitterly fought battle near Dhaka in 1617, he personally beheaded his chief wives, after which many of his comrades similarly performed the rites of murdering their own families in one another’s presence.[20] The practice of jūhar, or the destruction of women and children as an alternative to suffering them to be captured by enemy forces, was a Rajput rite assimilated into imperial culture through Akbar’s policy of incorporating Rajputs into the Mughal corps and the inclusion of Rajput women in the Mughal harem. Now it was carried into Bengal. Similarly, too, Mughal officials in Bengal preferred Ayurvedic, or native Indian, medical theory over the Yunani, or Greek (“Yunani” is a corruption of “Ionian”), medical system inherited by classical Islamic civilization. The ailing Islam Khan, himself an Indian Muslim, requested an Indian physician when he neared death. There not being one available, the governor only reluctantly accepted a Muslim ḥakīm, who was later blamed for having administered the wrong treatment and unnecessarily killing him.[21] When the governor of Bihar suffered from an illness that paralyzed half his body, the Emperor Jahangir sent him two Indian physicians from amongst his personal staff.[22] And when illness seized Mirza Nathan, the officer’s advisors sent for a practitioner of Ayurvedic medicine (kabirāj) who successfully treated him by consulting the appropriate astrological signs and having him drink a poisonous drug mixed with lemon juice and ginger.[23] Such reliance on Indian systems of medical therapy in the face of fatal illness and on Rajput customs when faced with immanent annihilation in battle—both of them life-threatening situations—suggests how thoroughly Indian values had penetrated Mughal culture by the early seventeenth century.

Would you like to pick another card?


what is of concern and can be debated is how much migration. if you are asking "where is the Persian-Bengali composite culture?" i would say that you have been looking at it. because of an almost exclusive dependence on Farsi-Urdu-Arabic, arguably there was relatively more influence of those three 'Muslim languages' in Bengal even compared to places like Punjab, where the Musalman Punjabi language itself had a robust patronage from and development by the Muslim

Every one of the copious citations made contradict the possibility of this Farsi-Urdu-Arabic dialect of Bengali. All we have on the other side of the balance is your 'arguably'. Not a shred of evidence; only the attempted re-creation of a non-existent past by Muslim searches for identity in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
 
.
@
Joe Shearer,
khair_ctg,
kalu_miah

Fols need to be noted, in my view:
a. Eastern and Southern parts of BD used to be North Arakan under the Sultanate of Arakan and Buddhist Moghs till these were annexed under Gov Shayesta Khan,1658. They were predominantly Muslims of Arab/semi-Arab origin. Physical features, local dialect,some customs and temperament of these Bengalee Muslims are different from those of West orNorth.
b. Almost all conversions in Hindustan,including Bengal, took place among high-cast/Brahmins/Khatryas. The reason is simple. These people wanted to continue in military and civil service - and prosper.These convertees invariably retained their tribal/family/cast/ja'at identity. In BD we have Muslim Thakurs,Biswas,Mazumdar,Chaudhury, Khastagir, etc.
c. Not so much Mughal-Uzbek as Afghan-Persian settlement took place in BD.The Suri dynasty was ours. Having been cornered into the east, the Afghan-Persians had long struggled against the Mughal-Uzbeks from their power base here. Most of our Muslim elites were not only Persian speaking, but were Shias too. With passage of time Urdu came into use although Persian had continued to be the official/court language. Time also allowed the predominant Sunni sect to overpower with the result that none now call himself a Shiah.
d. Diet,customs and celibacy gradually depleted the Hindu and Buddhist population while Muslims multiplied.

As it happens, we have gone over this ground before, perhaps in posts that may not have come to your attention. Please allow me to rehearse those arguments once more.

First, it is a fallacy referring to the Suri rulers as 'ours'. Please look at the time lines, and the movements of Sher Shah Suri. He was born outside Bengal, lived outside Bengal, and raided Bengal exactly once, to confront Mahmud Shah. When he toppled Mahmud Shah finally, in 1538, he never even went to Bengal, but sent his generals instead.

How can anyone claim this Afghan from Bihar as Bengali?

At (a), we encounter our old friend, the Migration Theory. This has been sufficiently discredited by Eaton; please read him again.

At (b), we encounter the Religion of Patronage Theory. You will appreciate that we either need to accept an argument or rebuff it with facts and deductions from those facts. It does not help merely to re-state it.

Point (c) puzzles me. Where do you locate these Afghan-Persians? The whole argument rotates around the circumstances that the initial locations of the Afghans were in the north and the west (of Bengal), and that the east remained impervious to Muslim presence until very late. Until the Mughals shifted their capital to Dhaka, there was no majority Muslim presence in east Bengal.

With your permission, I shall return to your post later.
 
.
Is nobody else interested in this fascinating analysis which @kalu_miah has brought to our attention? It is a very short book, and exceedingly well written, also, from the bibliography and the notes, very well researched.
 
.
Even in the east, Islamicisation was late in coming.

Unlike the population of the northern frontier region, however, and despite the pillaging of village communities as had occurred in the campaign against Ananta Manik, the people of eastern Bengal did not mount a prolonged resistance to the imposition of Mughal authority. On the contrary, for much of this region’s population, political submission was gradually followed by the adoption of a distinctly Islamic identity. In the Dhaka region, Muslim peasant communities were reported as early as 1599, even as the balance of power in the region was shifting from ‘Isa Khan to Raja Man Singh. Such communities were also reported in the Noakhali region in the 1630s, and in the Rangpur region in the 1660s (see pp. 132–34 above). Map 3 indicates that by 1872, when the earliest reliable census data come to hand, Muslims predominated in Bengal’s eastern districts in proportions ranging from 60 to 90 percent, in contrast to western districts, where they shaded off from less than 40 percent of the total to virtually zero along the delta’s western edge.

Clearly, given its extraordinary incidence of Islamization, the cultural evolution of the east departed radically from that of the rest of the delta—or, for that matter, the rest of India. Yet Mughal policy, which in any case was not directed at converting the “natives,” does not appear to have been applied any differently in the east than in the west. Nor is there any evidence that Sufis were any more pious, preachers any more zealous, or warriors any more courageous in East Bengal than were those in the west. For so different an outcome to have occurred, there must have been other factors or forces operating in the east that were altogether unique to the region.

I wonder, under the circumstances, how was Farsi-Urdu-Arabic fostered and nurtured? By whom? where?
 
.
Is nobody else interested in this fascinating analysis which @kalu_miah has brought to our attention? It is a very short book, and exceedingly well written, also, from the bibliography and the notes, very well researched.

Joe Sir, why British didn't promote Urdu in Bengal unlike making Urdu as the provincial language of Punjab after securing the Hindi-Urdu divide in UP.
 
.
@INDIC

I'm not very sure why they should have promoted Urdu in Bengal at all. What would be the purpose? when they had a perfectly good language already? And the relevant dates were exactly a century apart: don't forget we are looking at the period between 1757 to 1857. When would they have had time to do all this language promotion?
 
.
Back
Top Bottom