Should we be grateful that Bose failed?

[Spectre]

Japanese were driven back after suffering their greatest defeat with 55,000 dead in the Battle of Kohima but just imagine if Japanese Army with INA support would have succeeded in occupying India.

Resource mining from India which provided the allies with logistics, men, money and materials - all critical parts of their fighting machine - would have been stopped and subverted. Same resources would have powered the Axis Engine and perhaps would have turned the tide of WW2. In such a scenario what would have happened to India?

Let us try to analyze this objectively. Notion that Japanese would view India as an equal partner or ally is borne out romanticism and no hard facts

What do we know for sure?

1. They had an history of racial discrimination even against their Eastern counterparts in Korea and China
2. Japanese had no democratic values and were imperialistic to the core
3. There was a minimal chance that they would have allowed even the smallest of liberties to the Indian Population
4. British themselves were highly divided over the continued occupation of India. US infact was continually pressurizing them to withdraw hence a non violent independence was a forgone conclusion even the minds of occupiers.

To dislodge the victorious Japanese supported by Nazis would have been a herculean task requiring an armed revolt from a populace who was pacifist for the most case. Further while the west appreciated the foolish ideals of Gandhi, Japanese and Germans would have no qualms sending all dissenters to the gas chambers. While British took our resources, Japanese and Germans would have taken our women for comfort and our men would have been pressed into slave gangs.

Just Imagine defeating them with the Gandhian ideology -The same ideology which advised the Jews to practically commit suicide in face of Nazi genocide in order to invoke sympathy from them.

The other portion is Bose himself - No doubt he would have been made the head of a puppet government. Would he have been as liberal as Nehru and Gandhi? He did not have the organizational strength of Congress backing him up which would have formed the backbone of a new government. Would congress have welcomed him back as a leader above and beyond Nehru, Gandhi and Patel?

The last part is the most disturbing - Even if everything turned out well - By some miracles Nazis and Japanese treated us brown Indians not as filthy subhumans but as equal partners and Bose established a democratic India - still is it worth it? Do we want it at the cost of pre-eminent powers of world being genocidal Nazis and Japanese? Would we have been safe from them? Would they not like all imperialistic powers turn their gaze over defenseless India after sating themselves on the European and American meat?

The only good thing in this alternate reality (from my perspective) is that partition wouldn't have happened and Islamic radicalism which has almost destroyed so many Muslim countries would never have taken root.

@third eye @Levina @hellfire @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx

 

[Hellfire]

Good riddance of all concerned.

 

[Viny]

Its like going into parallel universe to understand the reality of different perspectives.

 

[cloud4000]

Bose was a romantic fool. By joining in with the Japanese, Bose was simply swapping one colonial master for another. Bose knew this but went forward anyway. He was dictated more by ambition than common sense.

 

[livingdead]

of course... just see what japanese did to chinese... within a short span of time killed/raped/mutilated hundreds of thousands... did experiments on them live by chopping off limbs..

 

[Levina]

Thanks for the tag.


It was a gamble he played, despite being aware of the fact that he and his army of irregulars were being used as a distraction, so that a section of British Army was kept busy in a war within India.
But I refuse to believe that Bose was foolish to not have foreseen that Japanese control over the subcontinent would have been be more perilous compared to the British. It is interesting to note that by (Spring) 1945 he had realized that a Japanese defeat was most likely. It's then that he decided to court Stalin's fav. For this he made arrangements to travel to China and from there to Moscow.
I'm assuming that he had a well chalked out plan to confront the eventuality.
Tbh, I think it's wrong to judge whether Bose was right or wrong? We can merely speculate about the situation which would have arisen out of Japenese victory.
By the same logic, what would have happened to America had Japanese won WWII?

I wish he was alive to tell us his story.

@Spectre pls add an option "can't say" or something Similar to the poll.

 

[Spectre]

Thanks for the tag.


It was a gamble he played, despite being aware of the fact that he and his army of irregulars were being used as a distraction, so that a section of British Army was busy in a war within India.
But I refuse to believe that Bose was foolish to not have foreseen that Japanese control over the subcontinent would have been be more perilous compared to the British. It is interesting to note that by (Spring) 1945 he had realized that a Japanese defeat was most likely. It's then that he decided to court Stalin's fav. For this he made arrangements to travel to China and from there to Moscow.
I'm assuming that he had a well chalked out plan to confront the eventuality.
Tbh, I think it's wrong to judge whether Bose was right or wrong? We can merely speculate about the situation which would have arisen out of Japenese victory.
By the same logic, what would have happened to America had Japanese won WWII?

I wish he was alive to tell us his story.

@Star Wars

@Spectre pls add an option "can't say" or something Similar to the pole.

Well Reasoned.. Too many grey areas, I agree but in a way scenario will always stay relevant because of multiplicity of choices we face regarding allies, alignments, partners and camps.

For eg: Ideally I would have preferred had India aligned itself with US instead of Soviets, the socialist experiments of Nehru should have been abandoned at inception state but instead India languished and remained a beggar country for 30-40 years post independence. Had we adopted a free market economy, it is quite possible we would have been a middle income country by now.

 

[jha]

I am grateful about Bose's failure not because of Axis Power's victory. They were anyway going to be crushed after Pearl Harbour. Nuclear bombs were just too much for Japan-Germany to handle.

We would have become another communist autocracy under Bose and he would have been our own "Dear Leader".

 

[Levina]

nstead India languished and remained a beggar country for 30-40 years post independence.

If we had supported Aemrica
1) we would have never had our own nukes. Russia doesn't consider India to be a competition but that would not have been the case with US.
2) We would not have won the war against the Portuguese and liberated GOA. It was Russia which used its veto powers to forbid a resolution from being passed against India.
3) To a fledgling state like India, Russia was just the right partner to grow with and not America which crushes every competitor.
Nehru?
Yaaawn. Some other time.
We have been talking about that old man too often on this forum. Let him "rest in peace".

 

[Spectre]

I am grateful about Bose's failure not because of Axis Power's victory. They were anyway going to be crushed after Pearl Harbour. Nuclear bombs were just too much for Japan-Germany to handle.

We would have become another communist autocracy under Bose and he would have been our own "Dear Leader".

Quite possible but honestly I haven't read about Bose to comment authoritatively

I am missing @hellfire, @scorpionx and @Joe Shearer in this thread. @Joe Shearer come back from your sannyas

If we had supported Aemrica
1) we would have never had our own nukes. Russia doesn't consider India to be a competition but that would not have been the case with US.
2) We would not have won the war and liberated GOA. It was Russia which used its veto powers to forbid a resolution from being passed against India.
3) To a fledgling state like India, Russia was just the right partner to grow with and not America which crushes every competitor.
Nehru?
Yaaawn. Some other time.
We have been talking about that old men too often on this forum. Let him "rest in peace".

1. We never know! Nukes have a habit of slipping through in dark - more so for US allies Think - Pakistan, Israel, France and UK versus India and China. 4 vs 2 record. Ya, I know Pakistan can go either side but still US closed it's eyes at the least.

2. Simple, US would have vetoed. Infact to be honest Russians were quite stingy of Veto powers. Had it not been for Russian stinginess and double dealing in 65, boundaries of the subcontinent would have been different

3. How can you say that - Infact none of Russian allies are prosperous on the other hand look at how Europe was rebuilt, How Japan was rebuilt, Look at South Korea and even Look at Pakistan which was doing much better than India before they had an organ failure in form of Zia.

 

[Star Wars]

If Japan had one and has taken even parts of Eastern part of India, they would have been far worse than the British.
The Alliance with USSR ended up with India being infiltrated with way too many commies and socialists. On the other hand US actually at that time helped their allies, US allies were economically far off than USSR. IF thing were inverted and we had USA as allies and not USSR, i would assume India right now would be in a far different position.

 

[Anubis]

If Japan had one and has taken even parts of Eastern part of India, they would have been far worse than the British.
The Alliance with USSR ended up with India being infiltrated with way too many commies and socialists. On the other hand US actually at that time helped their allies, US allies were economically far off than USSR. IF thing were inverted and we had USA as allies and not USSR, i would assume India right now would be in a far different position.

You would be economically better off...you would have a strong (maybe stronger) conventional military...you would not have nukes....some people here spoke about France and the UK...well India at that time would not be considered to be the same "class" of allies as UK or France...it would be similar to Korea or post-war Japan (if we consider their were/are two tiers of US allies,equals and lesser than equals)...the US would help you build India as a stronger economic power but probably with a huge military base in the north to counter China.

 

[indiatester]

Had we gone Bose way, we would have started as a dictatorial country and continued that way.

 

[Spectre]

You would be economically better off...you would have a strong (maybe stronger) conventional military...you would not have nukes....some people here spoke about France and the UK...well India at that time would not be considered to be the same "class" of allies as UK or France...it would be similar to Korea or post-war Japan (if we consider their were/are two tiers of US allies,equals and lesser than equals)...the US would help you build India as a stronger economic power but probably with a huge military base in the north to counter China.

There are many ways to skin the Nuclear Cat! Pakistan managed to get it's hands on one didn't it all said and done and there is documentary evidence that it was done with full US knowledge. US would have similarly looked elsewhere when India did this - more-soever in light of Chinese containment.

 

[Indika]

Japanese were driven back after suffering their greatest defeat with 55,000 dead in the Battle of Kohima but just imagine if Japanese Army with INA support would have succeeded in occupying India.

Resource mining from India which provided the allies with logistics, men, money and materials - all critical parts of their fighting machine - would have been stopped and subverted. Same resources would have powered the Axis Engine and perhaps would have turned the tide of WW2. In such a scenario what would have happened to India?

Let us try to analyze this objectively. Notion that Japanese would view India as an equal partner or ally is borne out romanticism and no hard facts

What do we know for sure?

1. They had an history of racial discrimination even against their Eastern counterparts in Korea and China
2. Japanese had no democratic values and were imperialistic to the core
3. There was a minimal chance that they would have allowed even the smallest of liberties to the Indian Population
4. British themselves were highly divided over the continued occupation of India. US infact was continually pressurizing them to withdraw hence a non violent independence was a forgone conclusion even the minds of occupiers.

To dislodge the victorious Japanese supported by Nazis would have been a herculean task requiring an armed revolt from a populace who was pacifist for the most case. Further while the west appreciated the foolish ideals of Gandhi, Japanese and Germans would have no qualms sending all dissenters to the gas chambers. While British took our resources, Japanese and Germans would have taken our women for comfort and our men would have been pressed into slave gangs.

Just Imagine defeating them with the Gandhian ideology -The same ideology which advised the Jews to practically commit suicide in face of Nazi genocide in order to invoke sympathy from them.

The other portion is Bose himself - No doubt he would have been made the head of a puppet government. Would he have been as liberal as Nehru and Gandhi? He did not have the organizational strength of Congress backing him up which would have formed the backbone of a new government. Would congress have welcomed him back as a leader above and beyond Nehru, Gandhi and Patel?

The last part is the most disturbing - Even if everything turned out well - By some miracles Nazis and Japanese treated us brown Indians not as filthy subhumans but as equal partners and Bose established a democratic India - still is it worth it? Do we want it at the cost of pre-eminent powers of world being genocidal Nazis and Japanese? Would we have been safe from them? Would they not like all imperialistic powers turn their gaze over defenseless India after sating themselves on the European and American meat?

The only good thing in this alternate reality (from my perspective) is that partition wouldn't have happened and Islamic radicalism which has almost destroyed so many Muslim countries would never have taken root.

@third eye @Levina @hellfire @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx

lot of ifs & buts.
Bose knew what he was doing, wrt to a Nation he was doing right. Whats the point in begging for freedom , when you shouldnt have lost it in first place ? The fact that India got attacked right after 1947 exposed the fact that even having Independence is not good enuf, we should defend it. Bose arrangement was short term based on the geo -political conditions at that time, just like we try to pull in US now. He simply did what a free nation would do.

India certainly would not have been influenced by nazism as it would not have helped us in any way. On the contrary Axis powers were no saints , US was having phillipines, french having algeria ..etc.

At the best there would have been civil war like that in China and things would have realigned. In fact things might have spanned even better. Consider the fact that root cause of most of the conflicts in Middle east is the artificial boundaries & regimes imposed by Allies. Only saving grace for India was that we collectively pulled together instead of squabbling among ourselves. Thats the reason why most of the external powers keep ranting that India is a miracle. Its more of a disappointment for them not see us in pieces , just like pakistan for their own devious purpose they keep peddling that Nation state nonsense.