Should the US continue support to Israel?

[Falcon29]

This poll shows the vast majority of Americans(70%) stand against the continuation of US support to Israel:

Should the U.S. continue to support Israel? | Debate.org

As evident by this poll. The minority in favor of continuing support are Jewish conservative Americans/Christian Bible thumpers. That isn't so good for Israel.

It would be nice if there was a large scale US based poll with this specific question.

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This is also the growing trend amongst Americans and nobody can deny that.Poll results on this thread show 4 American citizens of various backgrounds oppose continuation of US aid to Israel. While 1 Indian-American citizen and 3 citizens of India support it.

Not surprised.

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If you don't like the way I analyze the situation, why did you ask? You've known as far back as the USS Liberty thread which side I take. I shouldn't have bothered responding, lesson learned.

I wanted both sides to have their say and hoped you and sandy would approach this with reason and not due to your anti-Muslim sentiment. That didn't work out as I though it would.

Although I addressed most of the points you tried getting across.

 

[The SC]

Well you are VERY misinformed. In 1967, the Israeli forces were able to literally win wars with many Arab nations if it came to that. So you are saying that if the support started in the 60's, in 7 years all the training, tactics, installations were built and excelled by the IAF and all?
How long is it taking you to induct the JFT? Just one platform.....here we are talking about a military that was going to take on many countries and MUCH larger ones. The support was there from the day 1. In the 60's, due to war and other issues, the US openly took the Israeli side.

Militarily mostly; The Brits and France from 1948 to 1957, and the US from than on...

 

[HariPrasad]

US Israel relations are very deep. They have common interest. There is absolutely no question on part of US to not to support Israel.

 

[Viper0011.]

Commitment to...? The US under Roosevelt wasn't so welcoming of Jewish refugees post-WWII. I agree with you on the point of religious factor. Although the justifications for that religious factor are also flawed scripture wise. I also see the religious right fading away in this country as time goes by.

I wasn't around when the President Roosevelt was running his business and frankly speaking, all these guys are the elected officials. They can make whatever policies they want to as the US is a democratic country and they are the chosen leaders by the people

Where did you see that the President back then wasn't welcoming Jews. You also realize that Jews, like Blacks, have been through some tough times in the US due to the race issue??

Religious right fades away or not in the US, the intensity of every religion is lessening by the day everywhere else too (effects of becoming a part of the Global Village). Take a look around you and name a few countries that haven't copied Hollywood, Bollywood and other "woods" of the world. I don't see a significant U-turn on the foreign policy in my lifetime (which I still have about 100 years left to live)

Militarily mostly; The Brits and France from 1948 to 1957, and the US from than on...

The US had been supporting them from way before but you are also correct, there was a mixture of French and the Brits in there, which eventually went away around the 50's. But the US supported Israel from day 1, no doubt about it.

 

[Falcon29]

I wasn't around when the President Roosevelt was running his business and frankly speaking, all these guys are the elected officials. They can make whatever policies they want to as the US is a democratic country and they are the chosen leaders by the people

Huh? Does this look like an American Gov't course to you?

Where did you see that the President back then wasn't welcoming Jews. You also realize that Jews, like Blacks, have been through some tough times in the US due to the race issue??

US used to deny Jewish immigration and some drowned in waters as a result.

Religious right fades away or not in the US, the intensity of every religion is lessening by the day everywhere else too (effects of becoming a part of the Global Village). Take a look around you and name a few countries that haven't copied Hollywood, Bollywood and other "woods" of the world. I don't see a significant U-turn on the foreign policy in my lifetime (which I still have about 100 years left to live)

May God extend your life another 100 years.

 

[Viper0011.]

US used to deny Jewish immigration and some drowned in waters as a result.
May God extend your life another 100 years.

The US denies anyone immigration without a reason or a case approved by the USCIS. I don't think just because someone is Jewish, they automatically get inside the country. There are laws in place. There has to be a legal case approved before someone can just migrate to the US.

Thank you for your last comment, may you live another 100 years too.

 

[Falcon29]

The US denies anyone immigration without a reason or a case approved by the USCIS. I don't think just because someone is Jewish, they automatically get inside the country. There are laws in place. There has to be a legal case approved before someone can just migrate to the US.

Thank you for your last comment, may you live another 100 years too.

Yes I know this, but it sort of pokes a hole in the argument that US was committed to Jews post-WWII or that religion played a role in American support to Israel. During that era, Americans didn't have favorable opinions towards Jews. This religious fervor is new to the society.

 

[Ahmed Jo]

Why should the US continue to support Israel?

1) We are bound to by treaty.
2) Lebanon is a failed state, Syria is a failed state, Iraq is a failed state, Libya is a failed state, Egypt is an open question. Israel is an anchor for our interests in the region.
3) Israel is a liberal democracy that largely shares our values.
4) Our support enables us to control their defense industry (veto rights over transfer of technology).
5) Our defense and technology sectors are deeply intertwined.
6) Our support binds them to us diplomatically (Israel has a socialist past, leaving an opening for Russia or China).
7) Their intelligence agencies are able to provide critical insight into the area.
8) Israel is a magnet for Muslim supremacists and terrorists who would otherwise go after us directly. $3bn in aid essentially leverages up to a $17bn or so mosquito torch for the region.
9) We can use Israel as diplomatic leverage in the region (i.e. we will restrain Israel, in return, you do something for us).

The better question is, why shouldn't we continue to support Israel?

1) The enemies of Israel tend to be the worst kind of authoritarian, fundamentalist states, which would naturally be hostile to US whether or not we supported Israel, or even whether or not Israel existed.

2) Can you provide an example of a country that is hostile to Israel, that would not be hostile to the US without our support of Israel, and that the US would derive any benefit from? Turkey is already in our corner, no matter what we do with Israel. Iran will always be against us, no matter what we do with Israel. We don't need Arab oil, which the Arab states realize after their failed oil embargo, so the "moderate" Arab states will stay on-side no matter what we do with Israel.

The only justification I can think of is the cost of the military aid, but that's part of a package with Egypt (and to some extent, Jordan), so it would be difficult to imagine cutting off Israel without cutting off the other two. Cutting off all three would essentially lock the US out of that region--for what benefit?

do you know that Israel receives more aid than Egypt and Jordan combined, even though they have a national surplus and the US has massive debt? That's not very sensible, in my opinion. Remember, this is a foreign nuclear power state, not the 51st state of the US.

 

[The SC]

The US had been supporting them from way before but you are also correct, there was a mixture of French and the Brits in there, which eventually went away around the 50's. But the US supported Israel from day 1, no doubt about it.

The US took on officially after the Suez war against Egypt where the Brits and the French fought openly alongside Usrael against Egypt, they continued that covertly in 1967 war, and much before that they have armed Usrael to the teeth and provided training and equipments, like the blue prints of the mirage that became the Kfir, or the nuclear reactor and material in Dimona, and much more support than what has been discovered, those two entities went too far when they helped Usrael steal a substantial quantity of plutonium from the US, So the latter decided to take all matters in its hands, without cutting the military support, but enhancing it, while keeping an eye on the nuclear matter, they know better than anyone else that Usrael is the most extremist of extremists and suicidal...

 

[Viper0011.]

There is ample support from people who firmly believe Jesus will come if US will support Israel , and top that off all major financial companies have huge Jewish presence or ties

They don't say it out loud but the religious group , effects the presidential election and the elections day anyone who wins reaffirms to US people they will support Israel for a reason.

A myth has been created and is spread at lower levels in USA in radio , talk shows and media that Jesus will only support those who support Israel , and that is what they believe in

In 2007 there was I think a drive , to stop the settlement in Palestine Israel was doing so this whole financial crisis came out of blue where stocks and banks almost went under.

I agree with your first two points to some degree about the religious factor. But on Financial Institutions having Jewish presence, the Jewish Americans, like the rest of us, are educated and have careers. I don't think the organizations really go looking for a "Jewish" executive for hire per say.
If we are talking about diversity, I've seen Indian (Hindu) executives and many of them are friends actually, I'm friends with executives from Pakistan and of course many Jewish friends are executives along with some African American brothers. I don't think its about the religion, its about who is the most suitable and qualified person for the job and can take an organization forward.

And there is no myth. People believe in religion of their choice. Heck, people protest and end up damaging their country's economy and kill innocents in the name of religion elsewhere in the world. Religion and Se*x sells, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever system you believe in as an individual.

Last, I don't know how much you know about the market. But I've seen it come and go multiple times. The Financial Crises was in making since 2002 due to inflated asset values in the Real Estate markets. Banks were loaning almost anyone with decent borrowing history without caring about the amounts and what happens if they lost their jobs. If you read the investigations, the crises didn't come out of the "blue". It took years worth of greed to build it and when shi*t hit the fan, the fan spread it everywhere. There was no "Jewish Settlement Connection" with the financial crises. Let's not add conspiracy theories to a pure Capitalism / Market driven event that got screwed over by some people's greed.

 

[The SC]

I agree with your first two points to some degree about the religious factor. But on Financial Institutions having Jewish presence, the Jewish Americans, like the rest of us, are educated and have careers. I don't think the organizations really go looking for a "Jewish" executive for hire per say.
If we are talking about diversity, I've seen Indian (Hindu) executives and many of them are friends actually, I'm friends with executives from Pakistan and of course many Jewish friends are executives along with some African American brothers. I don't think its about the religion, its about who is the most suitable and qualified person for the job and can take an organization forward.

And there is no myth. People believe in religion. Heck, people protest and end up damaging their country's economy and kill innocents in the name of religion elsewhere in the world. Religion and Se*x sells, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever system you believe in as an individual.

Last, I don't know how much you know about the market. But I've seen it come and go multiple times. The Financial Crises was in making since 2002 due to inflated asset values in Real Estate and banks loaning almost anyone with decent borrowing history without caring about the amounts and what happens if they lost their jobs. If you read the investigations, the crises didn't come out of the "blue". It took years worth of greed to build it and when the shi*t hit the fan, the fan spread it everywhere.

This poll shows the vast majority of Americans(70%) stand against the continuation of US support to Israel:

Should the U.S. continue to support Israel? | Debate.org

As evident by this poll. The minority in favor of continuing support are Jewish conservative Americans/Christian Bible thumpers. That isn't so good for Israel.

It would be nice if there was a large scale US based poll with this specific question.

..............

This is also the growing trend amongst Americans and nobody can deny that.Poll results on this thread show 4 American citizens of various backgrounds oppose continuation of US aid to Israel. While 1 Indian-American citizen and 3 citizens of India support it.

Not surprised.

.................


I wanted both sides to have their say and hoped you and sandy would approach this with reason and not due to your anti-Muslim sentiment. That didn't work out as I though it would.

Although I addressed most of the points you tried getting across.

Well thought of thread, good work...

 

[Falcon29]

The US took on officially after the Suez war against Egypt where the Brits and the French fought openly alongside Usrael against Egypt, they continued that covertly in 1967 war, and much before that they have armed Usrael to the teeth and provided training and equipments, like the blue prints of the mirage that became the Kfir, or the nuclear reactor and material in Dimona, and much more support than what has been discovered, those two entities went too far when they helped Usrael steal a substantial quantity of plutonium from the US, So the latter decided to take all matters in its hands, without cutting the military support, but enhancing it, while keeping an eye on the nuclear matter, they know better than anyone else that Usrael is the most extremist of extremists and suicidal...

Nuclear cooperation is going on till this day. Here is a good piece documenting this:

Revealed: Europe's "discreet" cooperation with Israel's nuclear industry | The Electronic Intifada

 

[The SC]

Nuclear cooperation is going on till this day. Here is a good piece documenting this:

Revealed: Europe's "discreet" cooperation with Israel's nuclear industry | The Electronic Intifada

If they do have a bomb it is the one they have developed and tested with South Africa (When it was European!) a 20 kt very sophisticated miniature design one, 'cause I am pretty confident they had none before that, maybe some designs and materials, since I've seen pictures of American F-4s carrying Nuclear bombs stationed in Usrael during the 1973 conflict, Usrael was in such a dire situation that it took the US to go that far to persuade Egypt to open a gap for Sharon to save face (... and getting the Sinai back anyways without "killing" Usrael), and the world at large since the USSR threatened to send in its elite troops and Nuclear bombs as well...

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

do you know that Israel receives more aid than Egypt and Jordan combined, even though they have a national surplus and the US has massive debt? That's not very sensible, in my opinion. Remember, this is a foreign nuclear power state, not the 51st state of the US.

Understood, but that was the condition set forth in the Camp David Accords as a condition for returning the Sinai, which was no small thing. This was further amplified by the Oslo Accords. It is precisely the aid that the US gives to Israel that provides the leverage (as was the case when the US withheld aid guarantees to force Israel into Oslo), and it is European trade that provides it with leverage (the whole business with labeling goods manufactured in the territories). Besides, $3bn sounds like a lot until it is compared to the annual $125bn+ the US spends on a fraudulent scheme to pay people to retire early (also known as the Social Security Disability Program). Aid to Israel isn't even a rounding error in the budget.

The US can abrogate its treaty obligations, to be sure. But then it's likely that Israel will act unilaterally, and the chances for Palestinian statehood will be either lost forever, or reduced to a Lesotho-level existence.

 

[UKBengali]

The US can abrogate its treaty obligations, to be sure. But then it's likely that Israel will act unilaterally, and the chances for Palestinian statehood will be either lost forever, or reduced to a Lesotho-level existence.

How about full Western economic sanctions to destroy the Jewish economy, in order to to force them to do anything you want?

Where there is a will, there is a way.