Should Russia supply weapons to NAF?

[SouI]

No one should supply no one.

 

[Icometus]

The Ukrainian parliament lacked 10 votes impeach Yanukovych. By Ukrainian constitution, needed 75% of votes in the parliament to impeach a president. Needed 338 votes to do that, only got 328 votes. By Ukrainian constitution, Yanukovych was the legal president of Ukraine at the time of the May 26 Ukrainian presidential election in which Poroshenko won.

So if you care so much about the nuances of the Ukrainian constitution (which I don't honestly - I subscribe to Majoritarianism) and want to defend it so, why do you support Russia's annexation of Crimea? Ukraine's constitution requires that "Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum" according to The Economist article "Whether secession in Crimea would be legal" (which I'd link but my account is new so I can't post links yet)

You're using a blatant double standard, calling for the law to be followed slavishly to the exact letter one minute when it suits you, but then disregarding it completely the next minute when it happens to be inconvenient.

Further, do you seriously believe that Yanukovich being president would improve the lives of Ukrainians so much that its worth thousands of lives and billions of dollars of damage?

 

[Superboy]

So if you care so much about the nuances of the Ukrainian constitution (which I don't honestly - I subscribe to Majoritarianism) and want to defend it so, why do you support Russia's annexation of Crimea? Ukraine's constitution requires that "Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum" according to The Economist article "Whether secession in Crimea would be legal" (which I'd link but my account is new so I can't post links yet)

You're using a blatant double standard, calling for the law to be followed slavishly to the exact letter one minute when it suits you, but then disregarding it completely the next minute when it happens to be inconvenient.

Further, do you seriously believe that Yanukovich being president would improve the lives of Ukrainians so much that its worth thousands of lives and billions of dollars of damage?

Most of Ukrainians want Yanukovych, which is precisely whey Yanukovych won election in 2010 and Party of Regions was the biggest party in the Ukrainian parliament. This is a war Right Sector cannot win because they are only the minority and they will all be dead.

Why do I support Russia's annexation of Crimea? Because I am Chinese and China and Russia are brother nations, that's why.

 

[Icometus]

Most of Ukrainians want Yanukovych

That actually wasn't true -
according to the Reuters article "Poll shows limited differences between east, west Ukraine" (which, again, sorry I can't link to - this is a new account), “In eastern Ukraine, more than 67 percent of respondents approved of Yanukovich's overthrow, with the figure climbing to 94 percent in the west”.

So the vast majority of people in Ukraine - including the East - wanted him gone.

Why do I support Russia's annexation of Crimea? Because I am Chinese and China and Russia are brother nations, that's why.

So you're admitting to using a double standard? Isn't that hypocrisy?

 

[Vassnti]

The only people that describe it as a coup are Yanukovich, Putin and some Chinese kid in Canada, the Ukrainian parliment call it a vote.

"Ukraine's parliament voted on Saturday to remove President Viktor Yanukovich, who abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup after a week of fighting in the streets of the capital.
Parliament also freed his arch-nemesis, former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who walked free from the hospital where she had been jailed, completing a radical transformation in the former Soviet republic of 46 million people.
The apparent toppling of the pro-Russian leader, after bloodshed in Kiev that saw 82 people killed and the centre of the capital transformed into an inferno, looks likely to pull Ukraine away from Moscow's orbit and closer to Europe.

Protesters seized the Kiev office of President Viktor Yanukovich on Saturday, which appeared to have been abandoned.
It is also a stark reversal for Russian President Vladimir Putin's dream of recreating as much as possible of the Soviet Union in a new Eurasian Union, in which Moscow had counted on Yanukovich to deliver Ukraine as a central member
Members of the Ukrainian parliament, which abandoned Yanukovich after this week's bloodshed, stood, applauded and sang the national anthem after it declared the president constitutionally unable to carry out his duties and set an early election for May 25."

Ukraine parliament removes Yanukovich, who flees Kiev in 'coup'
On topic: Should Russia supply weapons ROFL they have been for the last year.

 

[Superboy]

That actually wasn't true -
according to the Reuters article "Poll shows limited differences between east, west Ukraine" (which, again, sorry I can't link to - this is a new account), “In eastern Ukraine, more than 67 percent of respondents approved of Yanukovich's overthrow, with the figure climbing to 94 percent in the west”.

So the vast majority of people in Ukraine - including the East - wanted him gone.



So you're admitting to using a double standard? Isn't that hypocrisy?

What poll is that? Yanukovych won election in 2010. This proves most Ukrainians want Yanukovych as president.

 

[Syrian Lion]

No - what they should do is stop arming a warmongering army that fights in the name of lies. If the Russian government actually cared about the people in Ukraine they'd stop all of this immediately.

Is life somehow so much better in Russia than in Ukraine that its worth losing thousands of lives and billions of dollars? Nobody is benefiting from this

so why is it allowed that US only arms such factions? US invades nations and destroys countries, it is okay, Crimea joins Russia with democratic voting, and that is a crime?
you see the double standard here?

 

[vostok]

If Parliament votes you out, and the people want you out, then you're impeached.

You realize the legislature stayed, right? That's how parliamentary systems work: if there's a vote of no confidence then the executive is out.

So the guy nobody wanted is out, a new guy is elected. That's pretty much the image of how representative democracy should work.

There are certain laws. Everybody need to follow them - this is democracy. You can not just take the money from the West and organize anti-constitutional coup to oust the legitimate government and then pretend that it was all democratically.
President of Ukraine may leave his post in 3 cases: death / poor health, impeachment, own desire. There was noone of those 3. They simply seized power by force. So they are the junta and have no legitimacy. The only legitimate authority in the former Ukraine is only in the Crimea and the Donbass, as they express the will of the people, not the western sponsors-puppeteers.

 

[Declein]

The only legitimate authority in the former Ukraine is only in the Crimea and the Donbass, as they express the will of the people, not the western sponsors-puppeteers.

No, they express the will of Russia. Different things, as Russia isn't "the people" of Ukraine....Furthermore, NAF isn't elected in the East, they have even less legitimacy than the Kiev government.

Spin it as you want but having a "coup" as you put it doesn't legitimize a third actor (Russia in this case) going for land grabs.

On the topic itself, there are already Russian supplied weapons in Ukraine, you can find pictures on the internet. If the West should supply lethal aid to Ukraine is another discussion..and at the moment, the UK army doesn't really need it.

 

[vostok]

No, they express the will of Russia. Different things, as Russia isn't "the people" of Ukraine....Furthermore, NAF isn't elected in the East, they have even less legitimacy than the Kiev government.

Spin it as you want but having a "coup" as you put it doesn't legitimize a third actor (Russia in this case) going for land grabs.

On the topic itself, there are already Russian supplied weapons in Ukraine, you can find pictures on the internet. If the West should supply lethal aid to Ukraine is another discussion..and at the moment, the UK army doesn't really need it.

In the Crimea and the Donbass were held referendums, the locals have chosen their path. And in Kiev Western puppets kicked legitimate authority and destroyed the sovereignty of Ukraine, and consequently, the state "Ukraine" has ceased to exist. In Kiev - Nazis Western puppets . In the Crimea and the Donbass - the power of the people. Of course, Russia helps to legitimate authorities, although less than necessary. At the same time, the West helps to illegal Nazi junta.

 

[Declein]

In the Crimea and the Donbass were held referendums, the locals have chosen their path.

Referendums with armed polite people outside the voting section don't count. Secondly, NAF wasn't elected by anybody.

And in Kiev Western puppets kicked legitimate authority and destroyed the sovereignty of Ukraine, and consequently, the state "Ukraine" has ceased to exist.

That's not for you, or Russia to decide. As it stands now, Ukraine exists.

In Kiev - Nazis Western puppets

Oh please...

. In the Crimea and the Donbass - the power of the people. Of course, Russia helps to legitimate authorities, although less than necessary.

What's weird is that "the people" aren't very enthusiastic about all this fighting and joining Russia, isn't it? Ofcourse, it's not like someone actually asked them if they agree with all of this.

Was it Strelkov the one lamenting about east Ukarinians refusing to join the rebels? That they only got a hand full of volunteers out of the millions ethnic Russians?
He got a little to opened mouthed about this little "liberation" by the Holly Rus thing and was swept under the rug..

 

[Superboy]

The only people that describe it as a coup are Yanukovich, Putin and some Chinese kid in Canada, the Ukrainian parliment call it a vote.

"Ukraine's parliament voted on Saturday to remove President Viktor Yanukovich, who abandoned his Kiev office to protesters and denounced what he described as a coup after a week of fighting in the streets of the capital.
Parliament also freed his arch-nemesis, former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who walked free from the hospital where she had been jailed, completing a radical transformation in the former Soviet republic of 46 million people.
The apparent toppling of the pro-Russian leader, after bloodshed in Kiev that saw 82 people killed and the centre of the capital transformed into an inferno, looks likely to pull Ukraine away from Moscow's orbit and closer to Europe.

Protesters seized the Kiev office of President Viktor Yanukovich on Saturday, which appeared to have been abandoned.
It is also a stark reversal for Russian President Vladimir Putin's dream of recreating as much as possible of the Soviet Union in a new Eurasian Union, in which Moscow had counted on Yanukovich to deliver Ukraine as a central member
Members of the Ukrainian parliament, which abandoned Yanukovich after this week's bloodshed, stood, applauded and sang the national anthem after it declared the president constitutionally unable to carry out his duties and set an early election for May 25."

Ukraine parliament removes Yanukovich, who flees Kiev in 'coup'
On topic: Should Russia supply weapons ROFL they have been for the last year.

1. Parliament never removed Yanukovych. You think a few Right Sector thugs a threat to the president of Ukraine?

2. Yanukovych went to Russia because Putin told him so to start the New Russia conquest of Ukraine.

On topic: Should Russia supply weapons ROFL they have been for the last year.

Russia has not given a single bullet to NAF. Where are Kornet missiles, AK-74M guns, RPG-32 bazookas? Russia uses these. Ukraine does not have any of these.

 

[Icometus]

What poll is that?

I'd link to it but can't yet - but search for that article's title on Reuters and you'll find it.

Yanukovych won election in 2010. This proves most Ukrainians want Yanukovych as president.

That proves they wanted him as president in 2010. Four years later they had changed their minds. Its hardly unusual for a leader's popularity to change over time.

There are certain laws. Everybody need to follow them

So if you care so much about the minutia of the law of the Ukrainian constitution why do you support Russia's annexation of Crimea? Ukraine's constitution requires that "Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum" according to The Economist article "Whether secession in Crimea would be legal" (which I'd link but my account is new so I can't post links yet)

You’re using a double standard.

and organize anti-constitutional coup to oust the legitimate government

Was the Parliament not legitimate? The vast majority of them voted for his ouster. The others abstained – there wasn’t a single vote to keep him.

They simply seized power by force.

It was a vote of no confidence. In parliamentary systems, when that happens the president is removed. This happens all the time.

So they are the junta and have no legitimacy.

You realize that not even Putin agrees with that, right? In the Guardian article “Russia will recognize outcome of Ukraine poll, says Vladimir Putin”, Putin said that the presidential election reflected the “choice of the Ukrainian people” and said he would respect it.

Even if you think Yanukovich’s ouster was wrong, it’s a moot point now. He’d already be out of office and Ukraine would have already had another election. Russia officially recognized that election as legitimate. You want a war over the past.

Further, even if everything you were saying was right, do you really think that an impeachment standard of 70% of votes vs. 75% of votes is worth killing thousands of people, ruining tens if not hundreds of thousands of people’s lives (since their relatives are now dead – do you know what that does to people?!), and causing billions of dollars of damage?

Look at what you’re saying. Its pointless warmongering. Jesus said “blessed are the peacemakers”. Do you think he’d be in favor of a war over something this trivial?

 

[boomslang]

.... I am Chinese and I admire Russia.

That explains everything.

 

[Superboy]

That explains everything.

You Americans will always be enemies of us Chinese. And this comes from a Chinese who has family who are Americans.