Should Pakistan copy the Turkish state system for religious affairs?

[Zulkarneyn]

Yes, definately

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Kaptaan @That Guy @waz @Oscar @Khanate

What do you guys think about this topic? Can you explain me the current system in Pakistan? Who is controlling the mosques? Who is paying the Imam?

Okay the way I understand it is thus. We have thousands of franchises being run in Pakistan. All the franchises are of course subject to the franchisor who in effect provides a licence to the franchisee. The product being peddled is religion. Like any business enterprise profit - monetary or power are the motivating factors.

The result is 100s of differant interpretations are being pushed by these differant franchisees. Because this is religion your talking about each franchisee believes that he is doing Allah's work and therefore anybody who opposes him is kaffir. Although this is rather extreme and reductive narration of reality but i think it sums it up rather effectively. The problem is because there are 100s of differant franchisors differant version of "Islams" clash and chaos ensues. Furthermore these franchisors acting as they do in the belief that have agency from Allah believe they are above the state. Therefore they often openly flout or take the law into their own hands.

Almost all franchisors are sponsored or are affiliated to a external force. The Saudi's and Iranian's have carved their own turfs. Therefore to say that the government should not get involved is invalid as foreign forces are at the moment influencing the "Islams" being preached.

What you have in Turkey is perfect. First it creates harmony between the state and Islam. Second it prevents outside countries from gaining influence inside your country. So the Turkish idea is great. Only one problem. Although these franchisors are bitterly divided but if the government makes any such move to regulate them they unite and because for decades nothing was done these franchisor mullahs are very powerful and can cause havoc. Ataturk was able to do that at the right time. It is like muzzling a baby tiger. If you don't do it in time and it gets too big it becomes almost impossible. That is where Pakistan is today.

It's bound to fail

Kemal Ataturk was many things but I don't think he was religious expert either. Food for thought?

 

[Moonlight]

One word; of course.

At the end of the day it will come down to two sides in Pakistan, if Mullahs win there will be mass killings of Brelvi and Shia Muslims, minorities and basically anyone who doesn't fit the narrative of narrow minded Mllahs, the other scenario where Mullahs would be hunted down and wiped out is not possible in Pakistan. most Pakistanis listen more to Mullah then what Quran says or what common sense dictates.

That's not the case for one particular sect or group. Very unfortaunelty, representatives of a sect are rigid minded and bring up their own laws. Only if they would have read Quran, then why would the problem be there in first place?
Even worse is, their followers blindly trust them and their words. Don't bother seeking knowledge on their own. And they buy whatever their followers give them.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Pakistan needs to create its own system that will work for it. It's called customization. The mullahs aren't too knowledgable on Islam though they like to believe it. The only man I know of that had a good amount of knowledge was Dr. Israr Ahmed. You can't just copy a system that worked for another country and expect it to do the same for you. Before talking about what kind of system Pakistan needs first and foremost you need to drastically reduce or get rid of corruption or else nothing will work.

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

And exactly how can you call non-government sponsored imams as civil servants! The Turkish state and the current party themselves invest heavily into mosques and other religious institutions, Pakistan can't do that.

Who is controlling the mosques? Who is paying the Imam?

Most are private funded and get their funds from Middle Eastern countries and local people and organizations.

 

[Manidabest]

no Pakistan shouldnt follow Turkish model because Turkey has different set of problems compare to Pakistan and Turkish ethnic background and composition is different in culture and thinking whereas Pakistanis have a different problems ....it means different solutions to different problems...

 

[Jawad iqbal]

totaly agree.. this could help us getting rid of brainwashed children , sects division , will provide us with control over out of control imams like abdul aziz of lal masjid.they could also be productive as they may share towards state

 

[Nexus]

no Pakistan shouldnt follow Turkish model because Turkey has different set of problems compare to Pakistan and Turkish ethnic background and composition is different in culture and thinking whereas Pakistanis have a different problems ....it means different solutions to different problems...

this !

 

[Luffy 500]

Throughout Islamic history mosques and scholars were always independent and all most all renowned scholars and jurists of islam were known for their fierce independence from political authority. And as such all Islamic sciences flourished and orthodoxy prevailed over heresy and kufr.

What you have in kemalist turkey is clipping of the wings of islamic scholarship. I hope the current situation has improved. The founder of turkey was himself a non-muslim (prominent islamic scholars declared him a kafir) who openly hated islam with a passion. Its amusing that certain pakistanis who call themselves muslims want to mimic the model set up by a kafir. @PaklovesTurkiye @unleashed @RAMPAGE

It was only after the dissolution of the ottoman empire that the rulers of post-colonial muslims states , drenched in ignorance and thoroughly intellectually colonized by western ideas , wanted to control mosques and friday sermons. The secular liberal world order is afraid of complete expression of islam in public life. The west and their secular agents like @Kaptaan want a lobotomized version of islam that is subservient to the secular liberal world order and hence they hate flourishing of Islamic scholarships. They can't stand islamic scholars and imams advocating good and forbidding evil.

Those who want to stifle Islamic scholarship find no problem in spreading false and kufr ideas of evolution , LGBT rights , secularism , individualism etc etc in universities and academic circles. Why should those kufr ideas get a free run in muslims states and Islamic ideas get stifled? If you have a law and order problem do NOT balme islam for that. Blame your goverments who believe in western values mind body and soul and run your states accordingly. @Oscar

So it can be "Dont kill Shia's or Dont bomb Sufi Shrines" but nothing on whether they preach against or harass them?

SO you want imams to refrain from exposing and refuting heretical ideas and beliefs? In other words you want to ban orthodox normative isalmic beliefs? An imam can't state the islamic principle that reviling the sahabas is disbelief or that grave worship is shirk ?

And how would you define what constitutes harassment? A grave worshipper may find intellectually refuting their beliefs as harassment? SO should imams and scholars NOT enjoy good forbid evil , one of the central tenet of islam?

If you have a law and order problem in your secular country why blame imams and mosques?

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Throughout Islamic history mosques and scholars were always independent and all most all renowned scholars and jurists of islam were known for their fierce independence from political authority. And as such all Islamic sciences flourished and orthodoxy prevailed over heresy and kufr.

What you have in kemalist turkey is clipping of the wings of islamic scholarship. I hope the current situation has improved. The founder of turkey was himself a non-muslim (prominent islamic scholars declared him a kafir) who openly hated islam with a passion. Its amusing that certain pakistanis who call themselves muslims want to mimic the model set up by a kafir. @PaklovesTurkiye @unleashed @RAMPAGE

It was only after the dissolution of the ottoman empire that the rulers of post-colonial muslims states , drenched in ignorance and thoroughly intellectually colonized by western ideas , wanted to control mosques and friday sermons. The secular liberal world order is afraid of complete expression of islam in public life. The west and their secular agents like @Kaptaan want a lobotomized version of islam that is subservient to the secular liberal world order and hence they hate flourishing of Islamic scholarships. They can't stand islamic scholars and imams advocating good and forbidding evil.

Those who want to stifle Islamic scholarship find no problem in spreading false and kufr ideas of evolution , LGBT rights , secularism , individualism etc etc in universities and academic circles. Why should those kufr ideas get a free run in muslims states and Islamic ideas get stifled? If you have a law and order problem do NOT balme islam for that. Blame your goverments who believe in western values mind body and soul and run your states accordingly. @Oscar



SO you want imams to refrain from exposing and refuting heretical ideas and beliefs? In other words you want to ban orthodox normative isalmic beliefs? A imam can't state the islamic principle that reviling the sahabas is disbelief or that grave worship is shirk ?

And how would you define what constitutes harassment? A grave worshipper may find intellectually refuting their beliefs as harassment? SO should imams and scholars NOT enjoy good forbid evil , one of the central tenet of islam?

If you have a law and order problem in your secular country why blame imams and mosques?

hmm

 

[Bouncer]

When you have people in Government with hardly any knowledge of Islam and not implementing Shariah. If these kind of people will try to take over mosques they would fail and fail badly.

As opposed to the mullahs currently in our mosques who are masters of their domain? I'd gladly take corrupt government appointed illiterate but tame mullah rather than the current corrupt and sectarian violence inducing ones we have now.

On a side note; the military already does this. All mosques in cantonments and even DHAs are controlled by the army.

What you have in kemalist turkey is clipping of the wings of islamic scholarship.

Thank God we didn't clip the wings of this "Islamic Scholarship" in Pakistan. Otherwise we wouldn't have these Shia hating, Ahmadi killing angels of deaths running around our country today.

And what exactly is Islamic Scholarship today? The most renowned and historical places of learning were under patronage of the Caliphs of their times.

 

[Gentelman]

Yes ohh yess.....
When enemy needs to corrupt you, they simply need to corrupt your religion by adding different things and explaining actual things in different way...
And according to Islam, Mimbar of Jumma's khutba belong to the administrator not the religious clerk.
We invested least on religion and we are and will soe the thrones cultivated by our brothers(KSA, UAE, Oman, Iran) and enemies (nationality doesn't matter here)....
We need to setup proper administration and start training clerks and common citizen about what we are following! About the Divine book and about who we really are!

 

[unleashed]

@Luffy 500
I will conclude by saying..

"Tassub se bara paigham yeh hai
Bahoo khoon Dars e Aaam yeh hai
Musulmanoon ka gar anjaam yeh hai
Main Kafir hun agar Islam yeh hai"

I request you not to reply me pls..

 

[.]

Hey we're good in our Country,We don't care about sunis Ahmedis Deobandis Christians(I grewup very close to christians even though I'm a sunni muslim,One of my best teachers were christians who changed my life forever,One of the best people I know were christians)
Whatever sect that is.
Religion is not a matter of state as quaid-e-azam rightly said.
People of our country are peaceful let them be.Its only the outsiders that create problem with Islamic fundamentalism.
However I do believe that Quranic verses that are mistratslated like the famous 72 Virgins which actually is 72 Raisins should be corrected.
http://www.justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216
We don't need to follow turkey I believe our people will be terror free just like they were before 2003.
One day I'll ride my bicycle around GHQ just like my elder brother used to,That's how much peaceful our country used to be.

 

[tarrar]

Pakistan will have to completely control mullahs, monitor all mosques & control on what these mullahs say, just like Turkey.