Should Pakistan copy the Turkish state system for religious affairs?

[SQ8]

There is a Deobandi Mosque a few streets from my house. It was built illegally, some twenty years ago, on CDA land near a dried nallah and has a Khateeb with an army of Madressah students with ample support from the local community. How do you plan on removing him from the mosque and installing a government approved Mullah?

Similar situations existed in Turkey during Ataturk's time; the biggest mistake one can make is to be afraid of these types. Lets be clear, a bloodbath will prevail with either smaller massacres or an eventual genocide for whatever side opposes these Mullahs.

Do we want to preserve a semblance of progress in our society or do we let Pakistan descend further into an egypt like situation where the sham democracy under Mubarak is replaced by a religious rightwing and then another never ending dicatorship?

The difference being, Sisi's army still had popular support among a certain group to keep power; pakistan's army may not have any left.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Oscar

The real threat is not the sermons or the Mullahs. The real threat is the presence of impressionable teenagers in madrassahs who will graduate with a degree in bigotry and nothing to offer to the society beside just that. The priority should be the enrollment of those children in schools and their mainstreaming into the modern world. Take that away from the Mullahs and they will eventually die out. This is most crucial and very doable compared to what has been proposed.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

The real threat is not the sermons or the Mullahs. The real threat is the presence of impressionable teenagers in madrassahs who will graduate with a degree in bigotry and nothing to offer to the society beside just that. The priority should be the enrollment of those children in schools and their mainstreaming into the modern world. Take that away from the Mullahs and they will eventually die out. This is most crucial and very doable compared to what has been proposed.

And I agree wholeheartedly, the Mullahs of today are just a progression of the previous generation. But since no alternative exists to provide what many people deem(and have a right to) necessary religious education that is regulated and vetted in addition to common knowledge subjects at low cost; we are facing a situation where the rate at which those hordes of brainwashed teenagers are being created is much higher than any plausible attempt to subdue the hate.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Similar situations existed in Turkey during Ataturk's time; the biggest mistake one can make is to be afraid of these types. Lets be clear, a bloodbath will prevail with either smaller massacres or an eventual genocide for whatever side opposes these Mullahs.

Do we want to preserve a semblance of progress in our society or do we let Pakistan descend further into an egypt like situation where the sham democracy under Mubarak is replaced by a religious rightwing and then another never ending dicatorship?

The difference being, Sisi's army still had popular support among a certain group to keep power; pakistan's army may not have any left.

My dear fellow, you are wrong, in my opinion, to equate the post-Great War Turkey with the Pakistan of today. The reason why Turkey was able to brave Kemalism was their proximity to the enlightened Europe. Pakistan enjoys no such luxuries.

And I agree wholeheartedly, the Mullahs of today are just a progression of the previous generation. But since no alternative exists to provide what many people deem(and have a right to) necessary religious education that is regulated and vetted in addition to common knowledge subjects at low cost; we are facing a situation where the rate at which those hordes of brainwashed teenagers are being created is much higher than any plausible attempt to subdue the hate.

You are wrong again my friend. The madrassahs do not exist because the Muslim population needs low-cost tuition centers for religious education. They exist because a laborer in Dera Ismail Khan or Mir-Ali cannot feed his son and so he sends him to a Madressah in Rawalpindi where a Mullah gladly takes him in and installs him as a part of his Zakat laundering venture.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

These "masaalik" have destroyed the true essence of Islam.

 

[SQ8]

My dear fellow, you are wrong, in my opinion, to equate the post-Great War Turkey with the Pakistan of today. The reason why Turkey was able to brave Kemalism was their proximity to the enlightened Europe. Pakistan enjoys no such luxuries.

You are wrong again my friend. The madrassahs do not exist because the Muslim population needs low-cost tuition centers for religious education. They exist because a laborer in Dera Ismail Khan or Mir-Ali cannot feed his son and so he sends him to a Madressah in Rawalpindi where a Mullah gladly takes him in and installs him as a part of his Zakat laundering venture.

You have mistaken my suggestion of Kemalism as an analogy to Turkey whilst I suggested a similar but not same approach; hence my next post clarifies that Pakistan's situation is not analogous.

In addition, you are mistaking my support for religious education as it being the core cause of Madressas. Yet, many a families including those in DI Khan, Kohat and so on will still send their children to Madressas even AFTER they are enrolled in public schools. Hence, the long standing claim of being a hobsons choice isnt the only reason for their existence.

 

[RAMPAGE]

You have mistaken my suggestion of Kemalism as an analogy to Turkey whilst I suggested a similar but not same approach; hence my next post clarifies that Pakistan's situation is not analogous.

In addition, you are mistaking my support for religious education as it being the core cause of Madressas. Yet, many a families including those in DI Khan, Kohat and so on will still send their children to Madressas even AFTER they are enrolled in public schools. Hence, the long standing claim of being a hobsons choice isnt the only reason for their existence.

Those families are one among twenty other families who send their children because it is indeed a Hobson's choice. I have seen this much too intimately to be wrong. But all that matters not. What matters is that we swiftly opt for what I have suggested in my previous post.

 

[SQ8]

Those families are one among twenty other families who send their children because it is indeed a Hobson's choice. I have seen this much too intimately to be wrong. But all that matters not. What matters is that we swiftly opt for what I have suggested in my previous post.

Everyone's intimate experience is based upon the bold word and is different. Hence mine would disagree on the ratio you propose but I do agree that your suggestion is the most viable one that could( should is out of our hands anyway) be implemented without the use of too much force.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What do you guys think about this topic?

Fantastic topic. Pakistan is fantastic country. I have been brought up outside Pakistan has so much potential. It is land which has set tempo of history from begining of time.

However the country is deeply troubled by two fundamental ailments. First religious and then economic. I believe the solution for religion is to be found in Turkish system of control of the mosque and for economic model China is a inspiration. Pakistan badly needs the Turkish system. I don't have time now but your going to be surprised if not shocked how religion is ran in Pakistan and how much source of trouble it is.

 

[Zibago]

There is a Deobandi Mosque a few streets from my house. It was built illegally, some twenty years ago, on CDA land near a dried out nallah and has a Khateeb with an army of Madressah students with ample support from the local community. How do you plan on removing him from the mosque and installing a government approved Mullah?

You live in G 6 ?

Do i see a problem with Turkish model for religious affairs no would most Pakistanis be ok with it nope

 

[T-123456]

They exist because a laborer in Dera Ismail Khan or Mir-Ali cannot feed his son and so he sends him to a Madressah in Rawalpindi where a Mullah gladly takes him in and installs him as a part of his Zakat laundering venture

The main reason why people send their children to these Madressahs.

The priority should be the enrollment of those children in schools and their mainstreaming into the modern world. Take that away from the Mullahs and they will eventually die out. This is most crucial and very doable compared to what has been proposed.

The only way to do that is to make sure the children get fed in schools(free schoolstuff,free education,free clothes,shoes etc etc)so that the parents dont have to worry about them, they will not have the need to send their children to these Madressahs.
The next generation would gladly accept the new laws.
But since Pakistan hasnt got the means to do all that,we have to wait for a better economic situation.

 

[Kambojaric]

If Pakistan wants to thrive as a nation then yes, it has to centralise control over religious groups sooner or later. However there will be a strong backlash and I suppose for that reason the establishment at the moment is not going after such groups too strongly. Internal instability will further invite our enemies (from both the eastern and western border) to intensify their agendas against Pakistan.

 

[Jaanbaz]

At the end of the day it will come down to two sides in Pakistan, if Mullahs win there will be mass killings of Brelvi and Shia Muslims, minorities and basically anyone who doesn't fit the narrative of narrow minded Mllahs, the other scenario where Mullahs would be hunted down and wiped out is not possible in Pakistan. most Pakistanis listen more to Mullah then what Quran says or what common sense dictates.

 

[unleashed]

?

Bro, feel pity on our religious clerics. If this happens, how our religious clerics will use Mosques and Madrasas for their own interest.

 

[Zarvan]

In Turkey, the Presidency of Religious Affairs (Turkish: Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı also Religious Affairs Directorate, and normally referred to simply as the Diyanet) is an official state institution established in 1924 in article 136 of the Constitution of Turkey by the Grand National Assembly of Turkey as a successor to the Sheikh ul-Islam after the abolition of the Ottoman Caliphate.[1]​

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Religious_Affairs

Every mosque, every Imam, every muezzin in Turkey is under the supervision of the Turkish authorities. According to Turkish law, Imams are considered as civil servants trained by the state. Without a state license, it is illegal to preach a sermon in the mosque. Right now the Diyanet controls aprox. 87000 mosques (85k in Turkey, 2k abroad). Every Friday sermon across Turkey is delivered by Diyanet. So, you and your friends are going to listen to the same sermon even if you don't live in the same state/province/city. And of course, every religious school/madrasa is controlled by Diyanet as well in Turkey.

Webpage of the Presidency of Religious Affairs: http://diyanet.gov.tr/en/home


Presidency of Religious Affairs
Basic Principles and Objectives

To carry out work on Islamic belief, worship and ethics, enlighten society on religion and administer places of worship (Article 1, Law No.633) in line with the principle of secularism, by staying out of all political views and thinking and aspiring to national solidarity and integration (Article 136 in the Constitution).

-To take substantial information based on the Quran and Sunnah, that are two fundamental sources of religion as a basis while enlightening society on religion,

-To take into consideration Muslims’14 centuries long religious experience and value modern life and common heritage of mankind.

-To offer services according to the principles of citizenship without distinction of sect, understanding and practice regarding religion.

-To continuously produce knowledge, share this knowledge with society and make timely statements on current issues.

-To accept that standing by people who need care and support like the disabled, homeless, elderly, poor and prisoners is an inseparable part of religious service.

-To have religious officials who have assimilated Islamic faith and its practical principles, have a high educational and cultural level, are at peace with themselves and society, play a pioneering role in human relations, understand their counterparts and can produce practical solutions to religious issues, can use religion and scientific date together and live an exemplary life with their words and behavior.

-To contribute to Turks living abroad not to lose their self-identity and be in harmony with the society they are living in without being assimilated.

-To introduce Turkey’s experience and heritage in the field of religion abroad, enable Islam to be correctly understood, closely follow discussions about religious understanding and practices in both EU member states and Turkey and give accurate information to the public opinion in the West on this matter.

http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/en/category/basic-principles-and-objectives/23

This system proved to be extremely successful to counter religious radicalism.To tell you the truth, reality is a bit more complex. Diyanet was and still is a heritage of the Kemalist revolution under M.K. Atatürk.

Maybe this system isn't fitting exactly to Pakistani needs but I'm sure that Pakistan needs urgently more centralization and more regulation in religious affairs.
(Sorry for my bad English.)

It's bound to fail. When you have people in Government with hardly any knowledge of Islam and not implementing Shariah. If these kind of people will try to take over mosques they would fail and fail badly.