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Should Pakistan Bomb illegal indian dams

Well there were some issues with design of Baghliar dam. Some of the design changes suggested by Pakistan were upheld, others were rejected by independent swiss expert when Pakistan took the matter to world bank.

Although Pakistan was not happy with the decision, GOP accepted the decision of independent expert.

Now if anyone is to blame its is GOP. If it thought that decision is in some way biased or the expert has not taken into consideration PK's genuine concerns then GOP should have not accepted the decision and could have pursued the matter further. Under international laws no dam of whatever type cannot be built without permission of all the concerned parties downstream. This is the very reason why Pakistan deferred the Kalabagh project because of opposition of Sindh.

Only requirement is you need to present your case in strong manner and leave usual "Yes Boss" strategy

Hence it is not fair to say all our problems are due to Baghliar dam. The problem is we have not constructed any major dam after tarbela was completed in 1974. Kalabagh or any other big dam should have been built by early 1990's. During Zia era almost everything was finalized, just an approval from Zia was required but Zia deferred the matter to the next meeting...and since that day we have not made any progress on that matter. Also work on small dams under construction in FATA area has been suspended due to security situation in the area.

I am not suggesting that Indian hands are clean. It is possible that presence of such a dam can effect water flow specially in low flow season. But if that is the case the matter can be taken to World Bank for a decision.

It should be noted that India is allowed under IWT to build projects that donot effect the flow of river for hydal power.not all projects on rivers are intended for water storage some only utilize flow of water to generate electricity. Go and read about Ghazi-Barotha Hydal Project(this project has more generation capacity as compared to Mangla dam)

People who suggest things like 'nuke india' & 'bomb india' must first go and read indus water treaty and what have we done on our part to cater water needs of almost double population compared to time when tarbela was completed.
 
As for my indian friends:there are people on both sides of border who think war is solution to everything.Secondly we can also say that why do you forget pakistani reply when you talk about surgical strikes.

Anyways, "bigger economy" has become a constant feature of replies from indian members.I know indian economy has grown over past few years but it does not mean you are something like china and USA that you can go on threatning anybody in this world.

so just ignore war promoting posts and live in peace

enjoy your stay at PDF

regards,
taha :pakistan:
 
As for my indian friends:there are people on both sides of border who think war is solution to everything.Secondly we can also say that why do you forget pakistani reply when you talk about surgical strikes.

Anyways, "bigger economy" has become a constant feature of replies from indian members.I know indian economy has grown over past few years but it does not mean you are something like china and USA that you can go on threatning anybody in this world.

so just ignore war promoting posts and live in peace

enjoy your stay at PDF

regards,
taha :pakistan:

Well this thread was started as a question posed by a Pakistani Poster...about Surgical Strike on Infrastructure...
 
hahaha ...good one...

BTW a lot of rookies are coming now-a-days with bombing and going down fighting theory..
Hamid gul seems to create an impression out there..he once openly said-" bangalore ke silicon valley ko hum dhuen me uda denge"...

best example of hate clouds one's thinking. Instead of thinking up ways to make Pakistan's IT field more competent and challenge Banagalore, all he can think of is destroying it.

These idiots always prefer a lose-lose strategy to a win-win one.
 
Salam Everyone,
I am not expert in terms of military talks. But i do know economic stuff and according to me the way its going, within two years pakistan will have enormous shortage of water due to illegal stoppage of pakistani water due to indian dams. Now i just want to know is it possible for pakistan airforce to somehow bomb those dams. I was confused cuz i heard from somewhere if pakistan bomb those dams it will destroy itself as those huge dam water will then flow towards pakistan and cause huge destruction. Sorry if its a stupid question. Thanks

Yes it is a stupid question and the only reason you are asking it cause you wanna start a flame war.
 

that was what pakistan press reported?

well the neutral expert was -Lafitte and his verdict is as follows....

Baglihar Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lafitte declared his final verdict on February 12, 2007, in which he upheld some minor objections of Pakistan, declaring that poundage capacity be reduced by 13.5%, height of dam structure be reduced by 1.5 meter and power intake tunnels be raised by 3 meters, thereby limiting some flow control capabilities of the earlier design. However he rejected Pakistani objections on height and gated control of spillway declaring these conformed to engineering norms of the day. India had already offered Pakistan similar minor adjustments for it to drop its objection. The Indus Waters Treaty of 1960 divided the Indus river — into which the Chenab flows — between the two countries and bars India from interfering with the flow into Pakistan while allowing it to generate electricity. However the key issue that any dam constructed by India should be strictly run of the mill was rejected. Pakistan government expressed its disappointment at the final outcome. Both parties (India and Pakistan) have already agreed that they will abide by the final verdict.
The verdict acknowledged India's right to construct 'gated spillways' under Indus water treaty 1960.The report allowed pondage of 32.58 MCM as against India's demand for 37.5 MCM. The report also recommended to reduce the height of freeboard from 4.5 m to 3.0 m.



Baglihar And Other Chestnuts By Zafar Choudhary

Baglihar And Other Chestnuts

By Zafar Choudhary

26 February, 2007
Countercurrents.org

On February 12, the Indian Water Resource Minister Saif-ud-Din Soz (a Kashmiri) was exceptionally joyful as equally was his Pakistani counterpart Liaqat Ali Khan Jatoi. Soz said it is a “win-win” situation for India while Jatoi described it as victory for Pakistan when World Bank appointed Neutral Expert Prof Raymond Lifette delivered his verdict on Baglihar hydro-electric project –a bone of contention between both countries.

The 450 MW run of the river project coming up on river Chenab in Doda district of Jammu and Kashmir, Baglihar ran into troubled waters two years back when Pakistan accused India of violating the Indus Water Treaty of 1960. At the time of independence, the boundary line between the two newly created independent countries i.e. Pakistan and India was drawn right across the Indus Basin, leaving Pakistan as the lower riparian. Moreover, two important irrigation head works, one at Madhopur on Ravi River and the other at Ferozepur on Sutlej River, on which the irrigation canal supplies in Punjab (Pakistan) had been completely dependent, were left in the Indian Territory. A dispute thus arose between two countries regarding the utilization of irrigation water from existing facilities. Negotiations held under the good offices of International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (World Bank), culminated in the signing of Indus Waters Treaty in 1960. The Treaty was signed at Karachi by Field Marshal Mohammad Ayub Khan, the then President of Pakistan, Jawaharlal Nehru, the then Indian Prime Minister and. W.A.B. Ill if of the World Bank on 19th September, 1960. The Treaty however is effective from 1st April, 1960.

In 2004-05 Pakistan lodged severe protest against India for raising height of the dam, at Baglihar hydro-electric project, which it said violated the treaty that has weathered all storms between both countries over past 47 years. The matter came up for discussion at the Indus Water Commission (as provided under the treaty, India and Pakistan both have a special commission on Indus Water). During several rounds of meetings between the officials of Indus Water Commission from both countries in New Delhi, Islamabad and then site visit to Baglihar; Pakistan outrightly rejected what India had offered to resolve the dispute. Following, protests from Pakistan, which were already telling on the bilateral relations between both countries, India offered well thought out concessions which included: 1.5 meter reduction on the 4.5 meter freeboard –a safety device to prevent overtopping of the dam in event of surging of sudden storm. Pakistan did not agree. The matter was reported to the World Bank for arbitration. On January 15, 2005 Pakistan rushed to the World Bank with its Baglihar complaint. Subsequently after consulting the governments of India and Pakistan, the World Bank appointed Prof. Raymond Lafitte, Professor at the Federal Institute of Technology of Lausanne, Switzerland as the Neutral Expert (NE) on 10th May, 2005, to determine the claims.

Pakistan’s request made on 15th January, 2005 raised a number of Points of Difference for Expert Determination in respect of the design of the Project on the basis that certain features of the design did not confirm to criteria specified in the Treaty. Pakistan contended, inter alia, that conditions at the Baglihar site did not require a gated spillway; that the spillway gates were not at the highest level; Indian calculations of the design, flood and the height of the dam (Freeboard) were excessive; India’s calculation of the required Pondage of 37.5 Mm was also too high as the correct Pondage should be 6.22 Mm; and that the level of intakes for the Power Plant were not at the highest level as required by the Treaty”.

Third Party intervention

After two years of arbitration, meetings, spot survey, case studies and wastage of time, Prof Raymond Lifette has delivered almost nothing beyond what India had offered as concession to Pakistan. And interestingly, the Neutral Expert refused to entertain what Pakistan had demanded. India had offered Pakistan 1.5 meter reduction on the 4.5 meter freeboard –the only significant recommendation made by NE in his verdict. Pakistan had demanded reduction of Baglihar pondage from 37 million cu m to 6.22 million cu m to convert the project from peaking to constant load station –contention firmly rejected by Pakistan.

Both countries have agreed to a verdict which was already under discussion. Save for the mutual mistrust between India and Pakistan, the issue could have been resolved two years back when India had offered to Pakistan what now Prof Raymond Lafitte has suggested. Prof Raymond Lafitte was appointed as Neutral Expert by the World Bank which is a signatory to the Indus Water Treaty and not the guarantor. The settlement described by India and Pakistan in their battle term phraseology of “win-win and victory” has been arrived at by a third party intervention. The countries made their people think that they had little choice but to accept ruling made by a third party –though neutral.

Baglihar is not the only water dispute between India and Pakistan and also water is not the only point of conflict between two neighbours divided at birth for a mutual animosity ever after. There is politics, there is territorial conflict. The rejoice in New Delhi and Islamabad over the Baglihar verdict has made the peacenicks to think beyond the water disputes about the possibility of a third party brokering. The verdict has thrown some questions: is this unprecedented agreement between India and Pakistan to agree on a third party verdict an indication of a mutual will between both countries on moving from conflict management to conflict resolution. Does this change in approach points a way to setting a maritime boundary in Sir Creek by the international cut off date; Can India and Pakistan accept a UN monitored peace zone in Siachen glacier –the world’s coldest, highest, bloodiest and costliest battlefield. Though India has always been suspicious about motives of the West but has shown amenability to Baglihar; it has to be seen keenly if Pakistan uses Baglihar to make a way for third party intervention on Kashmir.

The Verdict

During the 18 months of study Prof Lafitte had five meetings-in Paris, Geneva, London, and Washington and a visit to the Baglihar site and its hydraulic model at Roorkee. The Parties made written and oral submissions during the course of the Expert Determination. The NE upheld the overall design of Baglihar Dam who also recognized India’s right to utilize waters of western rivers more effectively within ambit of Indus Water Treaty for Power generation.


The NE after a detailed analysis of a data base of about 13000 dams from the International Commission on Large Dams’ world Register of Dams to analyse the type of spillway, gated or ungated, and a historical review of construction of large orifice outlets as well as a consideration of International Commission on Large Dams (ICOLD) guidelines, held that the site conditions at Baglihar require a gated spillway, and also held that in view of the high flood discharges and heavy silt loads, India’s design of gated spillways-both chute (surface) spillway and sluice spillways, as well as the number, size and location of their gates for the Baglihar dam complies with the design criteria set out in Annexure D of the Indus Water Treaty.


This important element in the NE’s Determination will deeply influence all future interpretations of the Indus Water Treaty. The NE has observed that the present day state of scientific and technical knowledge with advances in technology in dam design, not known or developed in 1960, can and should be utilized in dealing with problems such as those posed by heavy sediment which shorten the effective life of a plant. He is of the view that the reference in the Treaty to conceptual notions such as the need to ensure “satisfactory construction and operation”, “sound and economical design” and “customary and accepted practice of design” clearly not only permit but require use of latest technology. The NE has adopted the principle of effective interpretation which gives full effect to the rights and obligations provided by the Treaty, taking into account its object and purpose set out in the Preamble which is “attaining the most complete and satisfactory utilization of the waters of the Indus System of rivers”.
The NE accepts and regards as prudent India’s calculation of the design flood of 16,500 cumec (as against Pakistan’s figure of 14,900 cumec). After observing that for such possibilities India has developed all possible methods of analysis specially climatological and geo-morphological analysis.

The NE observes that the designer of a spillway is not only faced with the problem of flood control but also with that of sediment control and cites the “ICOLD” to note that the state of the art is today that “Bottom outlets may be used for under sluicing of floods, emptying of reservoirs, slucicing of sediments and preventing sediment from entering intakes etc”.
Accordingly, India’s design of sluice spillway at Baglihar with five outlets is regarded as appropriate and permissible under the Treaty for sediment control of the reservoir and evacuation of a large part of the design flood and being in conformity with the international practice and the state of the art. This decision will help India to deal more effectively with the problems of sedimentation in its future projects as the NE has confirmed India’s design of large bottom outlets (sluice spillway) as the most important technique to be employed in managing the high volumes of sediment which characterise the Himalayan Rivers. Incidentally, this had been an element of strenous objection and India, in the course of the Expert Determination, constantly maintained that India’s design to deal with sedimentation problems by modern methods does not in any way interfere with the flow of waters of Chenab River into Pakistan as required by the Treaty Based on the guidelines of ICOLD, the NE considers that the freeboard could be reduced by 1.5 metres. In this context, it is to be noted that India, in the spirit of good neighbourly relations, had offered possible reduction of freeboard to Pakistan even before the process of Expert Determination had started.

According to the NE, the first objective of “Pondage” is to regulate the flow of the river to meet the consumer demand. He considers that “Pondage” volume should be calculated taking into account only the variations in the load thus confirming the methodology adopted by India for calculation of Pondage. He disagrees with Pakistan’s method of determination of “Pondage” i.e. with the objective of operating the plant at constant power and regulating the fluctuations in the river flow. The NE has recognized the uncertainties in projecting future load variations. The NE has arrived at a slightly lower value of 32.56 Million Cubic Metre (MCM) of maximum permissible “Pondage” as against India’s design of 37.50 MCM. NE arrived at the lower value as he adopted a daily pattern of power generation which is slightly different from that adopted by India. As a result, there will be a minor change in the schedule of peak power generation. However, the number of hours of power generation per week would remain at about 49 hours as designed by India. According to Pakistan’s calculations, the maximum “Pondage” allowed was 6.22 MCM.

Another point of difference raised by Pakistan was regarding the elevation of Intakes for the Turbines for the Plant. The Treaty requires these to be located at the highest level, consistent with satisfactory and economical construction and operation of the Plant and with customary and accepted practice of design for the designated range of the Plant’s operation. Pakistan had suggested that provision of anti-vortex devices could raise the intake levels by about 7 metres from that designed by India. According to the NE, the normal practice is to go for an appropriate arrangement of the intake structure. In particular cases where this is not possible for technical or economic reasons, then resourse could be taken to anti-vortex devices. The NE has also observed that the intakes should be so located as to avoid asymmetrical flow of water towards them. From his application of well know semi-empirical formulae, the NE considers that it is necessary to raise the power intakes by 2 metres and an additional 1 metre to allow for the slight reduction in “Pondage”. While the Indian designers of the project do not agree with the NE’s approach, as it reduces the water seal by 2 metres, no difficulty is expected in incorporating this change in the design of the Baglihar Plant.

The three elements of design which require marginal changes, i.e. reductions in freeboard and Pondage and increase in the height of the intakes all arise from calculations and not from basic principles.

The NE’s Final Determination confirms that India’s design has been compliant with the basic principles of the Indus Waters Treaty.
:yahoo::chilli::P
 
Well there were some issues with design of Baghliar dam. Some of the design changes suggested by Pakistan were upheld, others were rejected by independent swiss expert when Pakistan took the matter to world bank.

Although Pakistan was not happy with the decision, GOP accepted the decision of independent expert.

Now if anyone is to blame its is GOP. If it thought that decision is in some way biased or the expert has not taken into consideration PK's genuine concerns then GOP should have not accepted the decision and could have pursued the matter further. Under international laws no dam of whatever type cannot be built without permission of all the concerned parties downstream. This is the very reason why Pakistan deferred the Kalabagh project because of opposition of Sindh.

Only requirement is you need to present your case in strong manner and leave usual "Yes Boss" strategy

Hence it is not fair to say all our problems are due to Baghliar dam. The problem is we have not constructed any major dam after tarbela was completed in 1974. Kalabagh or any other big dam should have been built by early 1990's. During Zia era almost everything was finalized, just an approval from Zia was required but Zia deferred the matter to the next meeting...and since that day we have not made any progress on that matter. Also work on small dams under construction in FATA area has been suspended due to security situation in the area.

I am not suggesting that Indian hands are clean. It is possible that presence of such a dam can effect water flow specially in low flow season. But if that is the case the matter can be taken to World Bank for a decision.

It should be noted that India is allowed under IWT to build projects that donot effect the flow of river for hydal power.not all projects on rivers are intended for water storage some only utilize flow of water to generate electricity. Go and read about Ghazi-Barotha Hydal Project(this project has more generation capacity as compared to Mangla dam)

People who suggest things like 'nuke india' & 'bomb india' must first go and read indus water treaty and what have we done on our part to cater water needs of almost double population compared to time when tarbela was completed.

I agree with most of the part of your post

but

may i know what is a diffrence between Pakistan and GOP if you don't mind??:undecided:
 
I agree with most of the part of your post

but

may i know what is a diffrence between Pakistan and GOP if you don't mind??:undecided:

they are the same.just did not bother to critically analyze my post before posting :hitwall:
 
Wouldn't really be the smartest idea, for starters, it would signal the beginning of the first Indo-Pak water war, thats not good news, secondly, the water released from the busted dams will flood territory within PAKISTAN, so in a nutshell both countries suffer unnecessarily, i must stress again that such issues are better solved through dialogue rather than conflict.
 

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