Should PAF go for J-13? ( including possible first flight photo)

[mean_bird]

Its been claimed by many that the J-11B suites PAF needs being a heavy fighter. But we know that such a purchase is unlikely because apart from PAF's decision for going for a heavy fighter, J-11 is roughly a copy of the Russian Su-27...and hence intellectual rights might come in play. In simpler words, China won't piss off Russia by making a copy and then selling it.

With the J-13 being rumored to be roughly in the same class, twin-engined, heavy weight, and might incorporate the latest China has to offer including possibly many systems developed for next gen aircraft. The advantage being its bigger is size so can accomodate heavier and more powerful equipment, have better payload and range, might even have significantly low RCS.

The lows are that its a dedicated Aircraft carrier based so the strengthening is an over-cost and not necessary for us. But same goes for Super-hornet but still finds its way in Australian and spanish airforces and is competing in the Indian MMRCA.

Btw, here's a "supposed" first flight of it. Doesn't look very credible but who knows. (courtesy china-defense forums).




Your views...

 

[Haanzo]

looks like PS ....the lighting gives it away...and there are no exhaust trails visible either ...like in the photo for example

...but if they have really built and flown it .... china is on the right path

 

[Arsalan]

well J11B was never right for us!
it is a twin engine fightr, expensive to buy and the keep it flying! for an airforce like our's with a low budget, it will surely turn out to be a night mare,
all that is possible is that we only incorporate two squadrons of twin engine heavy fighters for high end role but this should only be pursuaded when we have got enough single engine light to mediumweight fighters!
surel a J11, Su30 or F18 in limited number wil not be taht much effective when accompanied by F7 or Mirage III or V,,
first we must get about
100 JF17
50 - 60 J10B/FC20
some F16 with block 52 or near block 52 upgrades!

only then we can think of such a beast and who know that by then china have the JXX for offering so for me at the moment it is SIT BACK AND WATCH!!

regards!

 

[MZUBAIR]

Heard abt J-13. Dont know much abt it.
Lets wait when it get developed. I hope PAF look for 5th generation fighter in 2015.

 

[Owais]

Its been claimed by many that the J-11B suites PAF needs being a heavy fighter. But we know that such a purchase is unlikely because apart from PAF's decision for going for a heavy fighter, J-11 is roughly a copy of the Russian Su-27...and hence intellectual rights might come in play. In simpler words, China won't piss off Russia by making a copy and then selling it.

With the J-13 being rumored to be roughly in the same class, twin-engined, heavy weight, and might incorporate the latest China has to offer including possibly many systems developed for next gen aircraft. The advantage being its bigger is size so can accomodate heavier and more powerful equipment, have better payload and range, might even have significantly low RCS.

The lows are that its a dedicated Aircraft carrier based so the strengthening is an over-cost and not necessary for us. But same goes for Super-hornet but still finds its way in Australian and spanish airforces and is competing in the Indian MMRCA.

Btw, here's a "supposed" first flight of it. Doesn't look very credible but who knows. (courtesy china-defense forums).




Your views...

I think its a fake pic. look at the color of aircraft, most of the prototypes are flown without any paint job to find out the weakness and cracks in airframe.

 

[mean_bird]

I think it is fake too, just added it at the end since it appeared today on china-defense.

The actual thread is about people like MK, Muradk, and others saying we need J-11. We know that is rather difficult so why do they think we need J-11 and if those benefits that people regard in the J-11 would be satisfied by a J-13.

edit: If you zoom it enough, you can also see evidence pointing to it being PS like blurred around the edges.

 

[araz]

I know why Muradk is proposing J11B. But the point I want to make is , there are too many ifs and buts attached to this deal. To me the deal becomes a reality if India pisses off the Big bear and goes and sits in Uncle Sams laps and starts playing with his toys. The big Bear is then open to suggestions as we all like money coming our way. Whether it act itself or through China is anyone's guess. We also know that J10 is on hold because of Engine issue, but people have not put 2and 2 together to say that if a new engine is used and approved for J10Bs, why not use the same engine for J11Bs for commonality.We know of WS15 which has been shown to PAF officials as a possible future engine for J10.
the next procurement spree is in 2015 which gives us 3-4 yrs(2012--13---when we place our orders) in which to see the progress of the chinese avionics and engine manufacturing prowess. If the chinese do not advance sufficiently, then we have the option of asking the big Bear for engines. However, in my view, The PAF has been very specific in its ask of the Chinese with regards to the Engines, and although the chinese winge and moan, they will deliver, in the nick of time as potentially this could be a huge order.I dont have any hard evidence for it though.
Although there may be engines to suit thunder in the market at the moment, there do not appear to be any western engines, except the ones on f16s which will suit J10/11s hence my slight hesitation about looking west wards for an engine for J10/11 series.
All in all these are exciting times for PAF and we need to carefully watch this space for future developments.
My 2 paisas worth
WaSalam
Araz

 

[hj786]

I agree with the points made by Araz.

Just want to say that I don't think the new plane will be named J-13. There is already a J-13:
Shenyang J-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China started on it in 1971 according to the wikipedia article. The picture shows that it looks like a Mirage F1 crossed with an F-16. It even has leading edge root extensions just like F-16.

"The J-13 was to be a single-engine, single-seat, light-weight, indigenously developed, air-superiority fighter. The J-13's finalised design was a cantilever winged fighter with fuselage side mounted air intakes. The airframe was designed for high speed and high-altitude interception with limited secondary air-to-ground capabilities, the J-13 possessed a service ceiling of over 19000 metres, a maximum speed of mach 2.45 and a climb rate of 254m/s. The maximum range has been stated to be 2340 km and a maximum overload of +9Gs. Although an entirely a Chinese design, the J-13 bore a passing resemblance to the French Dassault Mirage F1 fighter aircraft."

 

[Luftwaffe]

Did u know PAF got a single F-16 blk 52 single engine for how much? if russians are giving Vietnam SU-30MK2 in 40 million dollars while on paper looks good to the world definitely its a downgraded version.. J-11/B would and might cost us $52 million? add $10M more juiced up J-11B twin engine eventually we'll come to that day to order twin engine fighters from China whether it be 2020 or 2021 that day will come we must be prepared....we shouldn't be talking about fiction stuff or either get prepared to build a JF-17 V2 on par with FA-18E/F which unfortunately we're not ready at all..

 

[mean_bird]

Just want to say that I don't think the new plane will be named J-13. There is already a J-13:
Shenyang J-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hj786,

If you look at that page again, on the top right side it says:

Project status: Canceled.


The J-13 is the Naval chinese carrier-borne fighter. Previously, it was rumored to be a version of Su-33 ( or Su-27 navalized). Later rumors suggest it is a new design, semi-stealth (or Low RCS) which incorporates several of the next gen technologies. Ofcourse nothing is known about it for sure and its all rumors.

China had J-9 and J-10 programs too in the 60s/70s that got canceled. Yet the current J-10 got the same designation as the previously canceled 2nd/3rd gen plane.

 

[SSGPA1]

For now (next 10 yrs) PAF should stick with single engine fighters. Here are my reasons:

1. PAF works as a defensive AF, an intercepter and a repulsor, we don't need long range jets.
2. With the latest SAM, BVR and Missile technology on hand, PAF doesn't need long range fighters.
3. Cost of maintenance and jet fuel consumption is going to severely effect other critical PAF projects.

IMHO, Pakistan armed forces should invest in the improvement of existing missile technology and stealth tech for our missiles.

Lets shower our enemies with missiles.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Once on a defencive footings---PAF is a dead air force---no ifs and buts about it. If you let IAF fly without impunity from their bases within 200 to 500 miles radius from our border---PAF is a dead duck.

The enemy must fear fear air attack on its bases. We cannot depend on cruise missile strikes----the cruise missile strikes will take the war to a different level---even though we can't stop it from happening.

For that reason when I say and I believe when MuradK states that we need a J11----my personal belief is that we are stating a plane with similiar capabilities.

Weapons procurement is based upon competing against the enemy mano a mano and winning everytime----it cannot be based upon " twin engine strike aircraft are expensive to maintain" for that reason we cannot and must not buy them.

Well---then this question must be asked---what is the price of freedom and the defence of the motherland---

The other option is very easy-----make a statement to the world----pakistan is declaring its non aggression stance from today---all the the nuclear weapons are being destroyed---we don't want war with india under any circumstance---we are cutting down our expenses on the millitary to a minimum---do the Mahatama Gandhi routine---turn the other cheek. That is the only way india can be defeated---through peace----the same way israel can be defeated.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Masterkhan good point one thing Israel is offered peace talks recently by Syria which Israel rejected how can we offer peace to Israel when it declared covert enmity on Pakistan back 4-5 decades...

 

[MastanKhan]

Yessirs,

Going off topic here---but to follow through---israel can never be defeated by war. It can only be taken down by a peace deal---at least a 50 to 75 years deal.

War is the only thing that keeps them together---in time of peace---they will be at each others throats like the different sects muslims are.

 

[MZUBAIR]

missing

In Musharaf govt ... after every 2 weeks musharaf always entertain his people lol

especially after 2 - 3 months 1 Missile test lov em.... thats the only thing i love in his govt...

WE URGENTLY TEST 1 MORE MISSILE because we are already much late... we havnt done any missile test since last 1 year atleast we again test ICBM ......

About Aircraft

We must ask for New F16s, Cobra gunships Super Cobra, NVG (night vision) and hi tech military equipments.. Why we are waiting for her offer we should ask ourself.. that we need new hi-tech weapons ..

Atleast new Block F16s (let see 18 in 2010 - 2011)
more thn 50 Cobra Gunships (if not in production but already refurb used in US military)
Hi-tech weapons like NVG and other weapons for ground forces
and Transport heliz like Chinook & C-130z

If we will get these weapons thn im sure we again beat in (Quality rather thn Quantity)

right now lak of Quality & Quantity...

This govt iss......................

Dear, I dont have any reference but I heard that Pakistan tested a cruise missel few weeks ago when Zardari was on America tour.
Pakistan and India has signed understanding that when any one of them tests a missel must inform other. but the agreement is for only Billestic missel not for cruise.
The other reason if Pakistan bring the news on media uncle sam will not like this. Uncle will get more consious abt Pakistan nuckes.
As for new jets, I have doubt that US might create problems for upcoming 18 F-16's.
I think now Pakistan shld forget USA aids and their miltary equipments. We have lost and paid many things to get American arms. But this all depends on our hungry leaders ( ). Look at the number of forign visits zardari had for last 1 year. All are paying by GOP.

We should look for new friends like france, China, Sweden, Germany etc.
I think we did mistake to buy F-16.
We have 2 options in mid/late 80's to buy F-16 or Mirage 2000. We rejected Mirage 2000 and went for F-16. I think we are still paying for the wrong descion.