Sheikh Abdul Aziz Killed - Violence Flares in Kashmir

[dr.umer]

Daily Times

UN asked to intervene to end Kashmir crisis

WASHINGTON: A large number of United States and European academics, writers, artists and human rights workers have written a letter to the Geneva-based United Nations high commissioner for human rights, Justice Navanethem Pillay, asking him to take immediate steps to ease the plight of the beleaguered Kashmiris of the Indian-held valley and the Muslims of Jammu who are being subjected to ethnic cleansing.

The signatories, who include Prof Angana Chatterjee from California, point out that the profound humanitarian crisis is continuing in the Kashmir Valley on account of the ongoing blockade of the Srinagar-Jammu highway by religious nationalist groups from India. This has resulted in severe shortages in the Kashmir Valley of food and vital provisions. Petrol and essential medical rations, including blood, are in critically short supply. So is newsprint, while communication services and infrastructure are severely disrupted. The situation in Jammu, where the Muslim minority is facing violence on a scale that can be described as “ethnic cleansing”, is alarming. The Government of India and the military and paramilitary forces have shown themselves unable and/or unwilling to take any effective action, either to end the blockade or to stop the violence against Muslims in Jammu. Meanwhile, military and paramilitary forces have opened fire on counter-demonstrators in Kashmir, using live bullets and mortar.

The letter notes that about 95-97 percent of the population of the Valley is Muslim, which has made Indian-held Kashmir the target of increasingly aggressive campaigns by Hindu nationalist groups since 1947, despite guarantees of autonomy written into the Indian Constitution. The Government of India has failed to take measures to prevent these campaigns, consisting of marches and demonstrations, and culminating in the current blockade. To a population suffering the effects of 19 years of armed conflict, the economic crisis caused by the blockade comes as the last straw. The signatories recommend that the Government of India should immediately end the economic blockade and ensure that goods and services, including emergency medical and food supplies, can move in both directions along the Srinagar-Jammu border. The Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road should be opened, as it would ensure that the current crisis situation is not repeated. It will also be a step forward in the peace process. Immediate action should be taken to stop the violence against the Muslim minority in Jammu and bring those responsible to justice. There should be an end to ongoing human rights abuses by Indian forces and pro-India militias, something repeatedly promised by the Indian prime minister. Steps should be taken top hold the Indian state accountable under the provisions established by the constitution of Jammu and Kashmir, the constitution of India, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and international laws and conventions.

I think its time to call UN Peace Keeping Force in Kashmir as India has failed to control the situation so far.

 

[vish]

How about you tell us with confirmed links and proof?

Beyond which could say that any Kashmiri supportive of staying with India was "paid X number of Quid" or did so out of fear out of the massive Indian military presence in Kashmir.

250,000 protectors, Pakistani flags waving, those killed being buried draped in Pakistani flags - says it all.

I pointed out to Salim once, that Pakistan's coup in Kashmir has been ideological, that is pretty obvious now.

I cannot give you any link or proof. Protests on both sides were initially staged and later when people were pissed off, the protests became "real." Why do I say this? Because that's how protests are conducted. The Pakistani flags were waved because somebody wanted and hence paid for them to be waved.

Plus, those 250000 people march? You think that is true? Anybody counted?

Dead bodies being draped in Pakistani flags, really can you send me some pics?

Pakistan's coup in Kashmir is the regions anti-India sentiment (which is not entirely our fault) and that's about it. This is aggravated by your "ideological" and moral support, which is nothing but a front to cover your designs for the region.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I cannot give you any link or proof. Protests on both sides were initially staged and later when people were pissed off, the protests became "real." Why do I say this? Because that's how protests are conducted. The Pakistani flags were waved because somebody wanted and hence paid for them to be waved.

Plus, those 250000 people march? You think that is true? Anybody counted?

Dead bodies being draped in Pakistani flags, really can you send me some pics?

I am going by news reports which if you go back in the thread you can read. So, at the very least I have that to back me up, unlike your own 'few quid' remarks.

The protests are considered the biggest in two decades, and here is another 'neural link' suggesting 100,000 at the funeral.

"In Srinagar, the main city in Indian Kashmir, about 100,000 people gathered at Martyrs Graveyard for Aziz's funeral, vowing to fulfill his legacy and achieve independence for Kashmir from India."

India security forces kill 13 Kashmiri protesters - 08/12/2008 - MiamiHerald.com

Pakistan's coup in Kashmir is the regions anti-India sentiment (which is not entirely our fault) and that's about it. This is aggravated by your "ideological" and moral support, which is nothing but a front to cover your designs for the region.

Our 'designs' in the region are entirely legal, and have been recognized by the international community and the UN through its resolutions and the status of Kashmir as 'disputed'. We don't hide the fact that we consider the status of J&K to be unresolved, and until the two countries come to a mutually acceptable solution, it will remain that way.

Our ideological and moral support, which is all it has been for quite a few years now (you have entirely yourself to blame for this fiasco), is completely justified keeping in mind the internationally accepted status of Kashmir as disputed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I believe it is the rogue's which were being pointed out. But that they were ins significant numbers as a lot in the ISI still have sympathies with the Taliban and maintain their earlier friendship.

I don't believe it is possible for them to exist in significant numbers within the ISI anymore. It was probably true before the Musharraf assassination attempts, but since then the DG ISI's, especially Kiyani, initiated a purge in the ranks to weed them out. You have to realize that these very people would also be a threat to the Army command, since they were supportive of the WoT.

Tell me, how is India destabilizing Pakistan? Everytime i hear is that what are the 6 or 7 consulates in Afghanistan doing? Does having 7 consulates in Afghanistan constitute support for Baloch insurgency? Or are you going to mention the news report that the 'structure' of the guns found by baloch insurgents is the same as that of the Indian embassy guards?!

Pakistan has in fact handed over its evidence to the US, I'll see if I can dig out the article on that, pretty sure its in the ISI thread I linked to in the other section. The public may never be privy to the full scope of intel and evidence that is accumulated, but both sides continue to believe that the other is involved in destabilizing the other. On that count I referred to India 'upping the ante' in Baluchistan and elsewhere.

Another ceasefire violation today. Read it in the other thread.

*Shrug* Could be your guys, could be ours. You know that neither side is completely innocent in these.

Its not as if Pakistan had a lot of choice. It was pressured into WoT. It did not have the room to maneuver there. Now that US and Pakistan are falling out, Pakistan seems glad to send a couple of fighters each time from here and there.

The WoT and the subsequent changes within the military leadership gave Musharraf the room to move in the direction he wanted to. He had already established his moderate credentials with his plans for reforming Pakistan, unfortunately, Pakistan's Afghanistan policy was tied to the Taliban, and through it so was Pakistan's Kashmir policy. The overthrow of the Taliban gave Musharraf the space to change both. SO I disagree that the change was entirely 'forced'. Owen Bennet Jones writes about this in detail in his book 'Pakistan'.

Yes, there are. But you find that the money to support them inevitably comes from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. What does that tell you? ISI is supporting them albeit indirectly.

Considering that B Mehsud is operating ona budget of a hundred million dollars or so, its not really that hard to see that institutional support is not needed for raising funds. The drug and weapons trade, donations, protection money from businesses etc. The crackdown on various charities was done because of their roles as fronts raising money for banned groups.

India has stated time and again, that bilateral relations can truly move ahead only when Pakistan's support for terrorism stops.

During Musharraf's reign it had, and I would argue that there is no evidence that such support exists today either, yet we still see no movement on bilateral issues, nor did we really see anything major develop during Musharraf's regime.

I honestly doubt your countries intentions on that count. Perhaps if Pakistan just gives up on Kashmir India may be interested, but other than that it seems the bare minimum interest.

I will remember that next time mate, when there is a statement released by India and everyone here protests about it.

Has India protested anything in Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas? I don't recall participating in a discussion on that at least.

NA does not mean NWFP, to clarify.

 

[Contrarian]

I don't believe it is possible for them to exist in significant numbers within the ISI anymore. It was probably true before the Musharraf assassination attempts, but since then the DG ISI's, especially Kiyani, initiated a purge in the ranks to weed them out. You have to realize that these very people would also be a threat to the Army command, since they were supportive of the WoT.

I was not aware of that. There was a LOT of speculation that those attempts were done by Musharraf himself to gain more credibility. I would request if you have some links if at all this was published, whether there indeed was some purging done in the ISI.

Pakistan has in fact handed over its evidence to the US, I'll see if I can dig out the article on that, pretty sure its in the ISI thread I linked to in the other section. The public may never be privy to the full scope of intel and evidence that is accumulated, but both sides continue to believe that the other is involved in destabilizing the other. On that count I referred to India 'upping the ante' in Baluchistan and elsewhere.

*Shrug* Could be your guys, could be ours. You know that neither side is completely innocent in these.

Roger.

The WoT and the subsequent changes within the military leadership gave Musharraf the room to move in the direction he wanted to. He had already established his moderate credentials with his plans for reforming Pakistan, unfortunately, Pakistan's Afghanistan policy was tied to the Taliban, and through it so was Pakistan's Kashmir policy. The overthrow of the Taliban gave Musharraf the space to change both. SO I disagree that the change was entirely 'forced'. Owen Bennet Jones writes about this in detail in his book 'Pakistan'.

Considering that B Mehsud is operating ona budget of a hundred million dollars or so, its not really that hard to see that institutional support is not needed for raising funds. The drug and weapons trade, donations, protection money from businesses etc. The crackdown on various charities was done because of their roles as fronts raising money for banned groups.

I agree, things under Musharraf were much better.
But LeT has its base in Pakistan, and when it was banned under US pressure, they merely changed their name to dawaa ul something. India has been asking Pakistan for a long time now to ban them as well, but Pakistan refuses to do so. This implies that Pakistan is only serious against terrorism when US tell it to. That maybe it wants to still keep its Kashmir terrorism card while being against Al-Qaeda or Taliban. It doesnt want to dismantly the Kashmir terrorist infrastructure.

During Musharraf's reign it had, and I would argue that there is no evidence that such support exists today either, yet we still see no movement on bilateral issues, nor did we really see anything major develop during Musharraf's regime.

The problems started cropping after the civlian government came on board. Either the ISI or someone else in the ranks thinks that the civilian government does not have the control Musharraf did, or something else. But the problem remains that as soon as the civilian government took power, things started going down. I am particularly inclined to think that the ISI does not consider itself to be below the elected government, while under Musharraf it did as it was told. I believe the problem is that the civilian government does not have the control or credibility infront of the Army or the ISI.

Has India protested anything in Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas? I don't recall participating in a discussion on that at least.

It did not. That was the whole issue, there was this huge thing in India when India did not give its standard statements the last time round, editorials were published among other things saying that Indian foreign policy might have come of age or matured.

 

[dabong1]

The Pakistani flags were waved because somebody wanted and hence paid for them to be waved.

...i got paid

Plus, those 250000 people march? You think that is true? Anybody counted?

Did you count them..?

Dead bodies being draped in Pakistani flags, really can you send me some pics?

Al Jazeera......you can find it yourself.

Even if all the above are proved to you to be true will it change a single thing in your kashmir mindset ?.....i dont think so

 

[dr.umer]

Pakistan has in fact handed over its evidence to the US, I'll see if I can dig out the article on that, pretty sure its in the ISI thread I linked to in the other section. The public may never be privy to the full scope of intel and evidence that is accumulated, but both sides continue to believe that the other is involved in destabilizing the other. On that count I referred to India 'upping the ante' in Baluchistan and elsewhere.

Agreed!

US told not to back terrorism against Pakistan
Tuesday, August 05, 2008

By Kamran Khan

KARACHI: Pakistan has complained to the United States military leadership and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that Washington’s policy towards terrorism in Pakistan was inconsistent with America’s declared commitment to the war against terror.

Impeccable official sources have said that strong evidence and circumstantial evidence of American acquiescence to terrorism inside Pakistan was outlined by President Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani and Director General Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) Lt. Gen. Nadeem Taj in their separate meetings with US Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen and CIA Deputy Director Stephen R Kappes on July 12 in Rawalpindi.

The visit by the senior US military official along with the CIA deputy director — carrying what were seen as India-influenced intelligence inputs — hardened the resolve of Pakistanís security establishment to keep supreme Pakistan’s national security interest even if it meant straining ties with the US and Nato.

A senior official with direct knowledge of these meetings said that Pakistan’s military leadership and the president asked the American visitors “not to distinguish between a terrorist for the United States and Afghanistan and a terrorist for Pakistan”.

For reasons best known to Langley, the CIA headquarters, as well as the Pentagon, Pakistani officials say the Americans were not interested in disrupting the Kabul-based fountainhead of terrorism in Balochistan nor do they want to allocate the marvellous predator resource to neutralise the kingpin of suicide bombings against the Pakistani military establishment now hiding near the Pak-Afghan border.

In the strongest evidence-based confrontation with the American security establishment since the two countries established their post-9/11 strategic alliance, Pakistani officials proved Brahamdagh Bugti’s presence in Afghan intelligence safe houses in Kabul, his photographed visits to New Delhi and his orders for terrorism in Balochistan.

The top US military commander and the CIA official were also asked why the CIA-run predator and the US military did not swing into action when they were provided the exact location of Baitullah Mehsud, Pakistan’s enemy number one and the mastermind of almost every suicide operation against the Pakistan Army and the ISI since June 2006.

One such precise piece of information was made available to the CIA on May 24 when Baitullah Mehsud drove to a remote South Waziristan mountain post in his Toyota Land Cruiser to address the press and returned back to his safe abode. The United States military has the capacity to direct a missile to a precise location at very short notice as it has done close to 20 times in the last few years to hit al-Qaeda targets inside Pakistan.

Pakistani official have long been intrigued by the presence of highly encrypted communications gear with Baitullah Mehsud. This communication gear enables him to collect real-time information on Pakistani troop movement from an unidentified foreign source without being intercepted by Pakistani intelligence.

Admiral Mullen and the CIA official were in Pakistan on an unannounced visit on July 12 to show what the US media claimed was evidence of the ISI’s ties to†Taliban commander Maulana Sirajuddin Haqqani and the alleged involvement of Pakistani agents in the bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul.

Pakistani military leaders rubbished the American information and evidence on the Kabul bombing but provided some rationale for keeping a window open with Haqqani, just as the British government had decided to open talks with some Taliban leaders in southern Afghanistan last year.

Before opening new channels of communication with the Taliban in Helmand province in March this year, the British and Nato forces were talking to leading Taliban leaders through†Michael Semple, the acting head of the European Union mission to Afghanistan, and Mervyn Patterson, a senior UN official, before their unprecedented expulsion from Afghanistan by the Karzai government†in January this year.

The American visitors were also told that the government of Pakistan had to seek the help of Taliban commanders such as Sirajuddin Haqqani for the release of its kidnapped ambassador Tariquddin Aziz, after the US-backed Karzai administration failed to secure Aziz’s release from his captors in Afghanistan.

Admiral Mullen and Kappes were both provided information about the activities of the Indian consulates in Kandahar and Jalalabad and were asked how the CIA does not know that both Indian consulates are manned by Indian Intelligence who plot against Pakistan round the clock.

“ We wanted to know when our American friends would get interested in tracking down the terrorists responsible for hundreds of suicide bombings in Pakistan and those playing havoc with our natural resources in Balochistan while sitting in Kabul and Delhi,”, an official described the Pakistani mood during the July 12 meetings.

Throughout their meetings, the Americans were told that Pakistan would like to continue as an active partner in the war against terror and at no cost would it allow its land to be used by our people to plot terror against Afghanistan or India . However, Pakistan would naturally want the United States, India and Afghanistan to refrain from supporting Pakistani terrorists.

Pakistani officials have said that the current “trust deficit” between the Pakistani and US security establishment is not serious enough to lead to a collapse , but the element of suspicion is very high, more so because of† the CIA’s decision to publicise the confidential exchange of information with Pakistan and to use its leverage with the new government to try to arm-twist the Army and the ISI.

The Pakistani security establishment, officials said, want a fresh round of strategic dialogue with their counterparts in the US, essentially to prioritise the objectives and terrorist targets in the war against terror, keeping in mind the serious national security interests of the allies.

Also

How they see us: Pointing the finger at Pakistani intelligence

The U.S. has found a scapegoat for its failure in Afghanistan, said S.M. Hali in the Islamabad Nation. It has settled on Pakistan’s Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, alleging that “rogue elements” in the agency were “abetting and aiding the Taliban.” Of course, the allegations are just “Indian propaganda” that the “gullible” CIA has swallowed. For months, India has conducted a “whispering campaign” against the ISI. Last month, India took the “extreme measure” of attacking its own embassy in Afghanistan “and pinning the blame on the ISI.” Indian operatives even fabricated evidence, in the form of messages supposedly from the ISI to the militants. India has long been “especially wary of ISI and has left no stone unturned in besmirching its good name and blaming it for all its woes.”

It’s no coincidence that the so-called evidence against the ISI emerged now, said Ahmed Quraishi in the Islamabad Daily Mail. (No evidence has been delivered to Pakistan Govt.) The Americans may not even believe the Indian propaganda; they are just pretending to because they want to discredit the ISI. That’s because the ISI can prove that Washington has been colluding with “Indian intelligence operatives based in major Afghan cities” to support terrorism in the Pakistani province of Balochistan. The Balochistan terrorists have been photographed going to safe houses in Afghanistan with the full knowledge of the U.S. military. The ISI believes that the U.S. may even have ties to Baitullah Mehsud, Pakistan’s top terrorist—the man behind numerous bombings, possibly including the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. At the very least, the U.S. failed to strike at Mehsud even after the ISI gave the U.S. military his precise coordinates.

Article continues...

 

[dr.umer]

Yes, they are common people asking for justice. No doubt.

But its part of larger game.

99 acres of land does not cause any harm to kashmiris, especially in a location where muslims don't visit.

It's a political game play by APHC. They used the land row to their benefit.

Now kashmiri's did not understand that peace is more valuable than 99 acers of land, and were blindly lead by APHC.

Had they not violently opposed the grant of land, things would have been much peaceful.

The VHP/BJP are also to be blamed, wheather they have 99 acers of land or not, the pilgrimage is not hindered. So they should have keep quiet.

But, it was the kashmiris that protested violently against the decision of the court to grant land.

There is no economic blocade, army is providing security to the transport vehicels.

There is no doubt that Pakistan is trying to make the most of the situation.

Neutral minds will understand, anti-india minds will try to cash in.

Land was and never had been the real issue. Kashmiris agree.

But it does have triggered the events.

Unfortunately this GAME is not a GAME.

People losing their lives for more then half a century are not playing games. 0.7 Million trained troops deployed to control civilians is NOT A GAME.

Homes of People being destroyed is NOT A GAME.

Killing leader of People whom they love the most is NOT A GAME.

It is a MISTAKE BY INDIAN GOVT & PEOPLE OF INDIA to consider it a GAME.

It is a MISTAKE to think that giving right of self determination to Kashmiris will catalyze more then DOZEN Independence movements going on in INDIA.

Sooner they realize that it’s not a game, earliest the peace shall be achieved.

That’s why Kashmiris are giving lives, protesting on the streets & roads, standing bare handed in front of well equipped military, to tell the world, that…

IT IS NOT A GAME.

ATLEAST NOT FROM NOW ONWARDS…

 

[Neo]

Yes, they are common people asking for justice. No doubt.

But its part of larger game.

Its for the Kashmiri's to decide how the game's played.

99 acres of land does not cause any harm to kashmiris, especially in a location where muslims don't visit.

Its funny to hear you say that. When Pakistan 'gifted' an insignificant part of porous, rigid, inhabitlable, infertile peace of Northern Area's to China for the benefit of building better and stronger ties it became in issue. 99 acres of fertile grounds is a non issie?

It's a political game play by APHC. They used the land row to their benefit.

A game meant to benefit political parties, not the local population. Its an immoral and unethical move.

Now kashmiri's did not understand that peace is more valuable than 99 acers of land, and were blindly lead by APHC.

Had they not violently opposed the grant of land, things would have been much peaceful.

Again its up to the Kashmiri's. Being a disputed territory any move against the wish of comon people is a violation of local integrity.

The VHP/BJP are also to be blamed, wheather they have 99 acers of land or not, the pilgrimage is not hindered. So they should have keep quiet.

But, it was the kashmiris that protested violently against the decision of the court to grant land.

There is no economic blocade, army is providing security to the transport vehicels.

There is no doubt that Pakistan is trying to make the most of the situation.

Neutral minds will understand, anti-india minds will try to cash in.

When almost everything becomes anti India in a region then its time to wake up and smell the coffee....

 

[Neo]

Continued unrest in IHK could delay Indian nuclear deal: experts​

* Kashmir violence could fuel human rights lobbies in West to block deal
* Indian minister warns Pakistan to stay out of J&K issue​

NEW DELHI: Pakistan's attempts to internationalise the Kashmir issue by approaching the United Nations (UN) coupled with the continued unrest in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) has the potential to delay the passage of New Delhi’s nuclear deal with Washington, said experts on Thursday.

At a time when India had launched a diplomatic blitz around the world to seek passage of its nuclear deal in the US Congress as well as a waiver at the 45-nation Nuclear Supplies Group (NSG), the spiralling violence in Kashmir could provide fuel to power human rights lobbies in the West to block the deal. The return of diplomats over the past few days has already affected the peace process between the two countries. India again strongly reacted to President Pervez Musharraf's remarks on Kashmir, with Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee warning Islamabad to stay out of the Jammu and Kashmir issue.

India had successfully cornered Pakistan on the issue of the bombing of its mission in Kabul, with Indian officials saying they had found "irrefutable evidence" leading them to elements involved in the bombing within Pakistan. Experts here believe that by raising the issue of the Kashmir unrest, Pakistan was paying India back in the same coin.

Commenting on Kashmir developments and the killing of unarmed civilians, The Hindustan Times Diplomatic Editor Amit Barua wrote, "It is our mess. We can't even blame the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate of Pakistan." Former naval chief Admiral (r) L Ramdas believes that developments in Kashmir would impact the dialogue process between India and Pakistan. "At the official level, nothing much will happen in the dialogue process," he said.

However, unlike in the past, Americans have not yet reacted to the Kashmir situation, but the UN has said that Secretary General Ban Ki Moon was monitoring the situation. India's former director general of military operations Lt Gen VR Raghavan said the situation was a “large dent” in India's claims to a secular Jammu and Kashmir. "We have gone out of our way to disprove our claims on Jammu and Kashmir for the past 60 years. These are all sparks (the agitation). There is a cauldron out there (in Jammu and Kashmir). All this will be exploited by others," he said.

Meanwhile, reacting to President Musharraf's remarks on Kashmir, Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said, "We have never interfered in Pakistan's internal matters. Pakistan should do the same."

 

[Neo]

Meanwhile, reacting to President Musharraf's remarks on Kashmir, Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said, "We have never interfered in Pakistan's internal matters. Pakistan should do the same."

What planet is he from...?

 

[dr.umer]

What planet is he from...?

I think this is heat of issue that he has forgotten to respond appropriately.

 

[Neo]

Kashmir protest is not internal, and will never succeed.

Btw, peace is returning to vally. Thanks to GoP's rhetoric over kashmir, it helped the normal man to realize that adversary is making benefit.

Keep denying, one day you will regret it.

Kashmir is an Integral Part of India.

For the rest of the world its disputed territory.

 

[ashfaque]

For the rest of the world its disputed territory.

And in the rest of the world, owner of diputed territory is who has possession. Though India have to become very sensitive to Kashmir issue, and should not allow seperatists to create situation like current one.

 

[Neo]

And in the rest of the world, owner of diputed territory is who has possession. Though India have to become very sensitive to Kashmir issue, and should not allow seperatists to create situation like current one.

The situation is not created by the seperatists this time but by your own police. It your own mess, can't blame anyone else.