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Sheikh Abdul Aziz Killed - Violence Flares in Kashmir

Fine mate, valid point.



Mate, the part that Pakistan has was taken over before the Indian Army ever got there. It is when Pakistan started occupying land there, that the Indian Army was asked to enter. When Pakistan entered, it was a free walk with only the King's troops there, nothing much to talk about!

What i mean is that since the time Kashmir acceded to India, no amount of direct or indirect military force has been able to take Kashmir away. No country in the subcontinent or for that matter even in the continent has the wherewithal(military) to actually physically remove Kashmir from India by force.


This is the one issue that unites Pakistan as well as the extremists who are on the warpath against the Pakistani state. It serves as a rallying point. I'd say it is of great significance especially now.


And i dont find this article saying that India wants Musharraf to stay. It only says that if Musharraf goes, there will be a political vacuum. And isnt it right? You tell me mate, as of now, the civilian government isnt exactly calling all the shots, its not the real center of power.


Mate, Pakistan and India have been at it for a long time now, and this includes the very recent Kargil War. It wont hurt India half as much as it would hurt Pakistan. India has the money and economy to sustain an arms race, Pakistan doesnt. As a direct consequence, Pakistan will ask for military aid/help from US/China, which would further compromise its sovereignty. I dont wish to flame at this point, but you dont see the US attacking Indian territories without permission. Neither would they in the future. Pakistan has paid a great price in its desire to match India gun for gun till now.


Sure, Pakistan is a threat, but not near to what it was a decade ago or what it was prior to that. India has moved beyond Pakistan, two factors count here-economy and military. In relative terms, Pakistan isnt close to what it was matching India like it did in the prior decades. Pakistan will truely have to practice minimum credible detterence now, because till last decade, Pakistan not only had minimum credible detterence, it was an equal military to match India.

As things get more and more expensive, Pakistan will have to have a minimum deterrence as opposed to an equal military machine.


No mate, that used to be true some time back, not any more. All the things you mention are already on order including RFP's already released. None of the equipment is in the planning stages, all of it is in the tendering process, from new arty guns to planes, from carriers to subs. Its either under construction or in the tendering stage, no vague plans. You know, it will fructify, and at this point, Pakistan does not have the money to match even half the things.


You have seriously fallen prey to the Indian media reports. The Indian CoAS played on the public sentiment to get the MRCA tender released soon. Allow me to ask you a simple question, if the Indian AF levels are declining because of retiring old platforms, dont you think Pakistani AF too has to retire its old planes? The letter of the CoAS was absolutely brilliant-he deliberately removed all of India's old planes from the equation while still keeping Pakistan's current strength and added its intended acquisitions!

The imbalance in the Airforce is also rising mate.


Its not that simple about attacking another country mate. There was a serious flaw in the military machine. The mobilization took around 2 months! A ridiculously high time. That flaw is being rectified.


Thats Kashmir's problem. I'd rather Jammu and Leh/Ladakh not suffer because of Kashmir. I say make Jammu a new state with Leh/Ladakh as its part and make Kashmir valley a Union Terrority. Remove Article 370, then we will really see some change.

Malay, I think your viewpoint is a bit outdated. Pakistan did not have military parity last decade, it wasn't even close. I think the term "the lost decade" justifies that.

currently, pakistan army is "NATO-standard" well-equipped and very well trained. a lot of our equipment is being produced indigenously now, no longer do we have to suffer from sanctions in military conflicts like in the past. our army is significantly larger than it was in the past, not to mention the vast numbers of irregulars who willingly serve without pay in times of emergency.

as i mentioned before, budget is never a problem for the military, remember that. whether we drain the economy and lead the country to bankruptcy, is totally irrelevant when it comes to security. after the 1965 war, a large chunk of the annual budget went to the military until this period. believe me, money is never a problem and if it ever is, we have the certain "trump cards" from the private sector and other friendly-muslim countries.

don't think this will be anything like the US-Soviet arms race where the other country went bankrupt. pakistan has been doing this for a while now with debt and sanctions, it's still here and not going anywhere anytime soon.

as for our airforce, there hasn't been any better period in the past. free MLU-ed F-16's, new F-16's, at least 36 J-10's (this number will definitely go up), 150-250 JF-17's, Erieye, and our own indigenous AWACS. as far as I can see here, Pakistan has increased the size of its military in all wings unlike in the past when our numbers were much lower.

neither country will go into an all-out war, it would be too costly on both sides. india can't use everything in her arsenal, it has to worry about the nuclear threat and China.
 
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Those would be what I am referring to as being debunked.
Never read those threads, would be glad if you could give me a short summary as to why were those reports baseless.

So what exactly is your point?

If bilateral relations don't matter, why shouldn't we protest?
Because it hurts Pakistan most. When i said bilateral relations dont matter, i meant it in this context. That is, if Pakistan continues to cash in on oppurtunities in Kashmir, it hurts Pakistan more. It makes both the countries hostile, and Pakistan goes back to supporting militancy which in the end gnaws at Pakistan itself.

And if they do matter, India has, with the litany of issues I outlined earlier, provocative statements, ceasefire violations etc., already ruined the atmosphere.
Provocative statements started only after the Embassy bombing. And i dont know if you have read Indian newspapers, the ceasefire violations were from the Pakistani side. Now im sure the Pakistani papers, reported that India violated the ceasefire.

So i would point out, its not India that has ruined the atmosphere.

Pakistan stands to lose nothing by protesting Kashmir in the current atmosphere, because the GoI has indicated that it isn't interested in sincere discussions on anything.
That is because of Pakistan's continued support for terrorism.

Even the IPI negotiations have been postponed reportedly till the 123 deal is finalized (or not).
GoI has said that it is committed to the IPI pipeline.

India has nothing on the table for Pakistan right now so empty rhetoric about 'losing something', that isn't even on offer, is pointless and not very impressive.
Next time, if there is political turmoil in Pakistan, i dont think you would like India commenting. And India did refrain from making such comments the last time.
 
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as i mentioned before, budget is never a problem for the military, remember that. whether we drain the economy and lead the country to bankruptcy, is totally irrelevant when it comes to security. after the 1965 war, a large chunk of the annual budget went to the military until this period. believe me, money is never a problem and if it ever is, we have the certain "trump cards" from the private sector and other friendly-muslim countries.
This is the root of your troubles. The reason why US continues to violate your sovereignty and why other countries take you for granted. Why your economy is nothing to be proud of.

don't think this will be anything like the US-Soviet arms race where the other country went bankrupt. pakistan has been doing this for a while now with debt and sanctions, it's still here and not going anywhere anytime soon.
I never said its going anywhere. But you are facing problems that i dont need to mention wrt the economy. The military mindset is hurting, and bad.

as for our airforce, there hasn't been any better period in the past. free MLU-ed F-16's, new F-16's, at least 36 J-10's (this number will definitely go up), 150-250 JF-17's, Erieye, and our own indigenous AWACS.
In absolute terms, you might think its never been better. But in relative terms, its not. Even 36 J-10's are not confirmed, let alone more. There is no indigenous AWACS of Pakistan, there's one that China's making, and you might buy it, when it comes of age. OTOH, India's procurement plans are way ahead. Money talks mate.

as far as I can see here, Pakistan has increased the size of its military in all wings unlike in the past when our numbers were much lower.

neither country will go into an all-out war, it would be too costly on both sides. india can't use everything in her arsenal, it has to worry about the nuclear threat and China.
We are digressing. This topic is about Kashmir.
 
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Never read those threads, would be glad if you could give me a short summary as to why were those reports baseless.

Because it hurts Pakistan most. When i said bilateral relations dont matter, i meant it in this context. That is, if Pakistan continues to cash in on oppurtunities in Kashmir, it hurts Pakistan more. It makes both the countries hostile, and Pakistan goes back to supporting militancy which in the end gnaws at Pakistan itself.

Provocative statements started only after the Embassy bombing. And i dont know if you have read Indian newspapers, the ceasefire violations were from the Pakistani side. Now im sure the Pakistani papers, reported that India violated the ceasefire.

So i would point out, its not India that has ruined the atmosphere.

That is because of Pakistan's continued support for terrorism.

GoI has said that it is committed to the IPI pipeline.
Malay, check the WOT and Strategy sections for the threads. Main point being that no evidence illustrating institutional support from the ISI has been provided (by India, Afghanistan or the US), and even the contacts with Jalaluddin Haqqani, that allegedly form the basis of the US accusations, have been explained.

Pakistan does retain contacts with some Taliban groups, but that is different from plotting terrorist attacks- though rogues cannot be ruled out.

Pakistan won't go back to sponsoring the insurgency unless India pushes it to do so, by upping the ante in destabilizing Pakistan. It is up to India to indicate that it is interested in putting the peace process back on track, since she is the one to take it off track, for Pakistan to not comment.

The provocative statement was to blame Pakistan without evidence (as usual), therefore it was entirely India's initiative to vitiate the atmosphere. The ceasefire violations were also analyzed, and I would argue that the Indian claim was debunked since they issued several conflicting statements - check my posts in the ceasefire violations thread.

The same old bogey of 'support for terrorism' does not fly. Pakistan has dramatically reduced support for infiltration into Kashmir for several years now, something acknowledged by some Indian analysts as well, despite the warnings every year of 'hundreds of fighters waiting to enter IK', never happened. The terrorism in India too has its roots within India as shown by the recent bombings, and probably always did but India was more interested in blaming the ISI hours after every blast.

All of this indicates only one thing, that India is back to vitiating the atmosphere by dredging up these canards of 'sponsoring terrorism' without evidence, and that has had a direct impact on bilateral atmosphere.

Stating it is committed to the IPI does not mean anything - final negotiations have been postponed - nothing is on the table, Pakistan should continue to protest Kashmir.
Next time, if there is political turmoil in Pakistan, i dont think you would like India commenting. And India did refrain from making such comments the last time.

Next time there is turmoil in AK/NA's, India is within its rights to protest, beyond that it isn't.
 
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This is the root of your troubles. The reason why US continues to violate your sovereignty and why other countries take you for granted. Why your economy is nothing to be proud of.
malay, the US violates everyone's sovereignty. if they were right next door to india, you would be in the same position as us. believe, there's nothing you can do about it.

I never said its going anywhere. But you are facing problems that i dont need to mention wrt the economy. The military mindset is hurting, and bad.
malay, pakistani's have a habit of making things worse than they already are. the economy is not in ruins, it still works. our current defense budget is frozen, it won't go up for probably a year depending on the situation. don't worry about what we say here on the forum, we just have a problem with our politicians. trust me, the sky isn't falling like everyone's making it out to be. the same events will continue to happen for time to come, until the US leaves afghanistan.

don't worry about NWFP/FATA, there has always been some trouble in all of our provinces. the same Mehsud tribe has caused problems in the 60's, believe me, everything works out in the end. the taliban are not taking over karachi, that's just a threat tactic to make it look like they are winning. actually the situation has only gotten better, Mehsud's group is breaking apart. they are using civilians in their own tribe as shields against air strikes, you can see where this is going. And believe me, once the tribe has enough they won't just overthrow Mehsud, they will kill him.

In absolute terms, you might think its never been better. But in relative terms, its not. Even 36 J-10's are not confirmed, let alone more. There is no indigenous AWACS of Pakistan, there's one that China's making, and you might buy it, when it comes of age. OTOH, India's procurement plans are way ahead. Money talks mate.

no, Malay it's much different from before. as for your 36 J-10's, Musharraf has personally seen the aircraft upclose. I don't think it gets any better than that, the chinese have offered their best aircraft personally. even if we don't contribute anything in the AWACS project, there is still ToT. and trust me, there's a lot more indigenous efforts in pakistan than what you see here on this forum. pakistan keeps these things hidden from the public like any other country should.

We are digressing. This topic is about Kashmir.
yes, we are digressing. but it can't be helped when someone is erecting flamebait all over the thread.
 
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I am sure you do not mean Malay by that.

Quite a gentleman he is, always civil.
no! of course not. this is the first time i've had a discussion with Malay Sahib, he always keeps it civil unlike some others. at least Malay provides facts and details unlike someone else who runs on pure speculation.

someone who can't even acknowledge pakistan's nuclear capabilities, although he knows that the Indian military wants to avoid "Pakistan's nuclear threshold", hint Cold Start.
 
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Some of the leading newspapers are equating the occupation of Georgia by Russia with the occupation of Kashmir by India.

Los Angles Times

Will Georgia war and Kashmir tensions influence U.S. voters?

As if the Russian-Georgian conflict wasn’t adding enough tension to the world stage, it looks like the long-running conflict over the Kashmir province on the India-Pakistan border is heating up.

Sheikh Abdul Aziz, an influential separatist leader, was shot and killed by police as he led a march by roughly 100,000 Muslims attempting to breach the border, the Times of London reports. The march was part of an escalation of tensions that began ratcheting up in June, and the killing is likely to add fuel to the fire.

We’ll let other blogs dissect the underlying issues and implications of that complicated situation in Kashmir. Its relevance here: With war underway in Georgia, if Kashmir erupts into broader violence, then Americans’ political attention could well shift from the economy to increased concerns about foreign policy and U.S. national security.

With the economy as the top issue, Barack Obama has been topping John McCain in polls. But if war and national security move back to the forefront, that could shift the balance among the undecideds and independents and give McCain a chance to reestablish himself among an electorate that already says it is tiring of Obama. And it’s the kind of calculation that the McCain insiders apparently have already been contemplating.

No one knows, obviously, what will happen. But the shifting conditions in both places are a reminder that it will likely be future — and unknowable — events and actions that will weigh heaviest on how the election turns out. On both sides, the easy votes have been won. The hard votes are, in many cases, those who aren’t even paying attention yet. And who knows what fears or ambitions will push them which way? — Scott Martelle

Also

Thousands demand independence in Indian Kashmir

Los Angles Times

From the Associated Press
5:29 AM PDT, August 14, 2008


SRINIGAR, India -- Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.

Pakistan's statement drew a sharp rebuke from India, which called the comments "deeply objectionable."

More than six weeks of unrest in India's part of Kashmir have pitted the region's Muslim majority against its Hindu minority and left at least 34 people dead, many of them protesters shot during violent clashes with police and soldiers. Villages have been attacked, police stations torched and, in at least one town, security forces have been ordered to shoot on sight any protesters violating a curfew.

The latest death came Thursday when police opened fire on protesters in Srinagar, Kashmir's main city, killing at least one and wounding three others, police and hospital officials said.

The trouble was grown out of a dispute over a government plan to transfer land to a Hindu shrine in Kashmir.

Another man, a Hindu, committed suicide Thursday in Jammu, Kashmir's only Hindu-majority city, to protest the scrapping of the land transfer. He was the second Hindu to kill himself in protest.

The spiraling unrest has unleashed pent up tensions between Kashmir's Muslims and Hindus and threatened to snap the bonds between India and its only Muslim-majority state. There are also growing fears that the violence could drive a wedge between Hindus and Muslims in other parts of India, where Hindu nationalist political parties have been organizing rival protests and calling for the government to give the land back to the shrine.

The latest protests, which began overnight in Srinagar and continued Thursday, were sparked by a rumor that security forces were breaking into houses and beating up women and children.

"This is a question of our honor, come out of your homes," said announcements played over the public address systems at various mosques in Srinagar.

People in Srinagar -- a mountain town once famed for its cool summer weather and the houseboats that ply the lake in its center -- responded by the thousands, pouring into the streets and chanting "Long Live Pakistan!" and "We Want Independence!"

Perhaps more than anything seen in the last six weeks, it is those sentiments that are most worrying to India.

Kashmir has been divided between India and Pakistan since 1948, and is at the center of their six-decade rivalry.

There is also a long history of separatist movements in New Delhi's part of the region. Most were peaceful until 1989 when a bloody Islamic insurgency began. The insurgents want to see India's part of the region merged with Pakistan or given independence.

The rebellion that has so far killed an estimated 68,000 people still festers, and India accuses Pakistan of aiding the insurgents -- a charge Pakistan denies.

On Wednesday, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry called for the United Nations to step in and curb "the gross violation of human rights" in Kashmir.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf followed that up a few hours later, saying: "I strongly condemn the human rights violation and the suppression on these oppressed people."

India's reaction was swift and angry.

"To call for international involvement in the sovereign internal affairs of India is gratuitous, illegal and only reflects reversion to a mind-set that has led to no good consequences for Pakistan in the past," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement released soon after Musharraf's remarks.

On Thursday, former Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif -- a key power broker in its ruling coalition -- said the matter was of deep concern to Pakistan. "This matter of Kashmir is not India's internal affair, it is as much a matter for Pakistan as it is for Kashmiris."

Meanwhile, two international human rights groups -- Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International -- demanded in separate statements that India stop police and soldiers from using guns against protesters unless the officers lives were being threatened.
 
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UN monitoring Kashmir situation

The Economic Times
14 Aug, 2008, 0933 hrs IST, IANS

UNITED NATIONS: The United Nations is monitoring the situation in Kashmir and the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon is aware of it, according to a spokesman of the world body.

UN human rights officials in Geneva are also aware of it and are "determining whether to make any comment," associate spokesman Farhan Haq said Wednesday when asked by a Pakistani correspondent whether the UN is aware that Kashmir is suddenly becoming a 'hot spot'.

"The Secretary-General is aware of the situation. We are monitoring it," he said. "We don't have any extensive comment to make on this at this stage."

"I believe our human rights colleagues in Geneva are also aware of this and are determining whether to make any comment. I don't have anything further to say at present," Haq added.

Taking strong exception to Pakistan's attempt to internationalise the Kashmir issue, New Delhi has warned Islamabad to desist from such a course of action that is "gratuitous and illegal" and has the potential to harm the peace process between the two countries.

Pakistan Wednesday had urged the international community to press India for "restraint" in the Kashmir Valley, where 20 people, including senior Hurriyat leader Shaikh Abdul Aziz, were killed in police firings early this week during protests over the land transfer to a board that manages the Hindu shrine dedicated to Lord Shiva.

For the last two months, both the Hindu-majority Jammu region and the Muslim-dominated Kashmir Valley have witnessed violence over transfer and subsequent revocation of 40 hectares of land to the Amarnath shrine board.

The burning issue has set off a wave of protests, shutdowns and violence virtually paralysing the strategic border state.

At least someone is watching but shamefully not making any comments. Lets see for how long...
 
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6c53e90bd56b76dccd1cc1ebece9ea90.jpg


Kashmiri Muslim protesters shout pro-freedom slogans atop the wreckage of a police vehicle after they burnt it during a protest in Srinagar, India, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir overnight, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.


f27efcf6c1ca28ee8967cae55fcc56b9.jpg


Kashmiri Muslims shout pro-freedom slogans as others prepare to carry the body of Tanveer Ahmed Handoo during his funeral after he was shot during a protest in Srinagar, India, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.
 
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8570445a6ed7069767ab9a0c0ce9274d.jpg


Unidentified relative kiss the shroud of Tanveer Ahmed Handoo, during his funeral after he was shot during a protest in Srinagar, India, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.


c55d335a30fc0ef9eaced19cfc106d64.jpg


A Kashmiri Muslim runs past the body of Tanveer Ahmed Handoo, as others pray during his funeral after he was shot during a protest in Srinagar, India, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.
 
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8ecf1748f42322727040d51362ff7a54.jpg


Kashmiri Muslims shout pro-freedom slogans as others prepare to carry the body of Tanveer Ahmed Handoo during his funeral after he was shot during a protest in Srinagar, India, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.

8600222a27cdc1f7924266b4bae8c6cf.jpg


Kashmiri Muslims carry a wounded man on a stretcher after he was shot during a protest at a local hospital in Srinagar, India, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Thousands of Muslims poured into the streets of Kashmir on Thursday, demanding independence from India hours after archival Pakistan called on the United Nations to stop what it characterized as gross human rights violations in the divided Himalayan region.
 
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Pictures tell more than thousand words, they're taken from Srinagar.

They don't look like terrorists or extremists but just comon people, men, women and children asking for justice.
 
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I am sure you do not mean Malay by that.

Of course not, he is referring to me... Unfortunately when I keep things civil, my thread gets deleted while some get leeway in posting personal attacks.

IPF

someone who can't even acknowledge pakistan's nuclear capabilities, although he knows that the Indian military wants to avoid "Pakistan's nuclear threshold", hint Cold Start.

Why are we digressing and anyways you never proved you have a super computer. Let us keep this discussion for some other day.
 
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