'Shadinota' Class corvette news and discussion.

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri will be upset that you do not consider IN as blue-water Navy.

Nope I agree with @Michael Corleone 100% and @madokafc as well , Indian navy is definitely not a blue water navy, neither is China...though both are on their way, over time lets see....it will take quite a while. They both have some blue water capabilities (like other major navies), but thats different to "blue water navy".

True blue water navy is only the USN in my books. One can make an argument for UK and France to limited extent too. It all depends how much power projection and for how long a Navy can sustain across in any and all maritime theaters in the world.

@AUSTERLITZ @Vergennes

As long as BN can safeguard BD interests, then I am not interested in what definitions are given.

That is very very different to blue water navy you were harping on about earlier.

 

[UKBengali]

Nope I agree with @Michael Corleone 100% and @madokafc as well , Indian navy is definitely not a blue water navy, neither is China...though both are on their way, over time lets see....it will take quite a while. They both have some blue water capabilities (like other major navies), but thats different to "blue water navy".

True blue water navy is only the USN in my books. One can make an argument for UK and France to limited extent too. It all depends how much power projection and for how long a Navy can sustain across in any and all maritime theaters in the world.

@AUSTERLITZ @Vergennes



That is very very different to blue water navy you were harping on about earlier.

Like i am trying to say there are different definitions of what a "blue-water" Navy is. Let us look at the one I am using:

Todd & Lindberg classification:

Using the above scale, BD can realistically get to Rank 3 with around 15-20 years - hardly difficult as Spain already makes it there.


Lol @ trying to compare IN with PLAAN. China is far more technologically advanced and wealthier than India is.
You Indians need to get out of your China fantasies for your own good.

All that matters to me is that BN will become serious headache for the IN in the Bay of Bengal and will have the capability to venture further outside when required.

 

[Genesis]

Kamorta is only P28 series,its follow on 8 P28A are coming soon.You see unlike type 056 which is a coastal ship with low tonnage,kamorta is a true blue water ship of frigate level with plenty of space left open for any future upgrades.Its a dedicated ASW and unlike type 56 actually had passive countermeasures /anti torpedo decoy launchers and a hangar .I don't understand how you can have a credible ASW ship without a hangar based helo.Total we will have 12 dedicated ASW corvettes which are frigates in all but name.Unlike PLAN which is faced by a 100 odd japanese and american submarines we have at best half a dozen PN subs and whatever subs the PLAN can send without running out of endurance from faraway SCS to worry about.So we don't need such gigantic numbers,we need quality.Coupled with the latest P-8 poseidons,our own subs and other ships,maybe the 22 guardian drones we can deal with the issue.Also unlike PLAN all our major warships(destroyer level) are equipped with 2 ASW helicopters rather than 1 for better,wider and consistent coverage.

Coming soon. When was the first Kamorta laid down? How soon is soon. Kamorta is not a frigate level ship, compare the armament and radars on a frigate with Kamorta and you tell me which one is it similar to.

The 056 has a role in the SCS and ECS yes, and they most likely won't leave it in any conflict, but it is not expected to conduit major operations. It is simply to monitor and patrol a large area around home waters, while larger ships conduct offensive operations. So unless your Kamorta does more than that, it would not be a game changer compared to 056 in that role. Unlike a 002 V Nimitz situation.

Even if I am to accept the role you think Kamorta should play, that would place the Kamorta in the 054A class, which compared to 054A is not a credible ship in this role at all.

Another point to consider, as China adds Djibouti base, an actual military base where we will base ships and men, home water to these ships don't have to be the China seas.

In total, you have 3+1 construction ASW corvette, forgive me if I don't place particular faith in ships you constructed in the 90s.

Without a hanger, 056 cannot conduct blue water operations yes, but again that is not its role. If you think with a hanger Kamorta can be an effective force on its own, or be part of a major battle group, then let me mention they cannot, nothing in history have ever indicated that they could play such a role.

I am happy you mentioned Japanese and American subs, because their submarines are going to be key in future Chinese development. American ASW innovation came at the constant "battles" they engaged in with the Soviets. So yes, you don't have to faced them, but in a conflict, not that there would be one, neither of these two country will come to your aid. In this sense, their existence is only positive. China's ASW capability certainly wouldn't have increased by this much if not for them.

The fact that you think you have it covered really shows how unprepared the Indian navy is. ASW is unpredictable in the best of times, and yet you think it's no problems at all. This is the same mindset China had 20 years back, it is only through playing these great power games with America has China really realized how limited its capabilities are and started to expand them.

But sure, I am sure 8 planes and 3 ships are going to handle the dozens of modern submarines we have. (ones that we have exported at the expense of other naval powers, including France and Germany, not necessarily means we are better, but it does mean we are in the ball park)

Nope I agree with @Michael Corleone 100% and @madokafc as well , Indian navy is definitely not a blue water navy, neither is China...though both are on their way, over time lets see....it will take quite a while. They both have some blue water capabilities (like other major navies), but thats different to "blue water navy".

True blue water navy is only the USN in my books. One can make an argument for UK and France to limited extent too. It all depends how much power projection and for how long a Navy can sustain across in any and all maritime theaters in the world.

@AUSTERLITZ @Vergennes



That is very very different to blue water navy you were harping on about earlier.

What capabilities do you consider to be a blue water navy? This is more directed at France and UK than US. I respond to your other post later.

 

[Nilgiri]

Using the above scale,

Posts some wiki scale for STRONK feel for future will-force of BD navy.

Lol @ trying to compare IN with PLAAN.

but then laughs after just posting STRONK feel scale that put India at level 3, but China at level 4.

You seriously can't make up this level of hypocrite retard. No wonder:

Asks for opinion:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/need-for-a-proper-land-planning.558172/page-2#post-10490004

Says opinion was worth "used toilet paper" from get go:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/need-for-a-proper-land-planning.558172/page-3#post-10491023

So obviously has a used toilet paper fetish. BD STONK!

 

[Genesis]

Always highly laughagle when one reads what China actually plans to station in these "naval" "bases" lol. Tokenism paper tiger stuff as always, but to be expected given what the USN, ROKN, JPN and ROCN have sitting on China's doorstep.

What does the ROCN have on our doorsteps? Since you mentioned them, you must know exactly what they have. I know I do. What do they have?

 

[Nilgiri]

All that matters to me is that BN will become serious headache for the IN in the Bay of Bengal and will have the capability to venture further outside when required.

They will be interesting tin can highlights on blips of P-8 radar....not even worth a harpoon lock to send message....chota-bhai needs to feel speshul.

What does the ROCN have on our doorsteps? Since you mentioned them, you must know exactly what they have. I know I do. What do they have?

Those kidd class pack some punch you know. Have you read up history of spruance class hulls?...and why they were used even for ticonderoga (before dedicated arleigh burke design for AEGIS)? Not to mention the NATO-class style of Taiwan's C4I overall....which mind you probably integrated closely with Japan and US.

 

[UKBengali]

They will be interesting tin can highlights on blips of P-8 radar....not even worth a harpoon lock to send message....chota-bhai needs to feel speshul.

Let us see.....

BD will have no less than 6 modern 4000+ tonne frigates.

You are aware of the capabilities of modern frigates? Most can fire a wide range of short,medium and long range SAMs. How many harpoons will the P-8 need to fire to even overwhelm the multi-layered defences of a single frigate?

Now if BD was to get the Chinese Type-054B design with it's 200km-range HQ-9X then it may be P-8 hunting season.

Those kidd class pack some punch you know. Have you read up history of spruance class hulls?...and why they were used even for ticonderoga (before dedicated arleigh burke design for AEGIS)? Not to mention the NATO-class style of Taiwan's C4I overall....which mind you probably integrated closely with Japan and US.

Now how long will any of these ships last when China unleashes hundreds of cruise and ballistics missiles at them?

US rightly fears Iran's missiles and China has 10 times as many to fire.

 

[Bilal9]

BN is likely to have 4-6 modern SSKs by 2030.

As for PLAN, are you aware that it's Navy will be by far the 2nd most powerful in the world by 2030 and not that much far behind the US?
We are talking about dozens of cutting-edge Type-95 SSNs and those P-8s and Drones will be taken care of by SAMs from the PLANs destroyers and frigates, not to mention the fighters based on their carriers.

I am sorry but this think tank guy's thinking is stuck in the 80's. Completely hobbled by backdated notions and pre-conceptions about the Chinese Navy.

Comparing the Indian Navy with the Chinese Navy. What kind of a superpower(?) equips (cobbles together?) its naval platforms with borrowed sensor and missile bits from any source that will provide it?

I guess I have had enough entertainment for the week.

You see unlike type 056 which is a coastal ship with low tonnage,kamorta is a true blue water ship of frigate level with plenty of space left open for any future upgrades.

Which makes it exactly incapable of conducting operations in littoral zones. All future conflicts in Asia will inevitably be fought in littoral zones, where nimble ASW equipped and sensor-networked 056's or C13B's (our future builds) will operate. Kamorta class can't get in there with its draft. Even 'plenty of space left open for any future upgrades' will not help there - because that will only increase draft. Useless.

You need small nimble well-armed platforms for littoral warfare. Not 3500 ton behemoth ships. Kora, Khukri and other classes of missile boats which serve in the Indian Navy for operations in shallow water, lack any sort of ASW capability and will be totally dependent on the Kamortas for protection. But Kamorta's draft (which is at least 5 plus meters) will prevent operations in shallow water. Whose bright idea in IN was this?

Guys - look at the stealth littoral platform the US fields (Independence class) - even that has faced criticism in US Navy circles because at 2300+ tons it is way too big and heavy. But draft at 4.3m is only as deep as a 600 ton ship. The trimaran design helped a lot.

Indian Navy planners realized this a bit late, that is why they are building the 700 ton ASW littoral patrol boats at GRSE and Cochin. By the time these are built - Bangladesh will also have locally built ASW C13B's equipped with AW-159's etc. We already have four Durjoy class (two ASW versions) and are planning to build four more. Plenty for our littoral patrol area.

Unlike PLAN which is faced by a 100 odd japanese and american submarines we have at best half a dozen PN subs and whatever subs the PLAN can send without running out of endurance from faraway SCS to worry about.So we don't need such gigantic numbers,we need quality.

Keep underestimating PN and PLAN capability - nice going. Like someone else has already mentioned - Burma will have a PLA Naval base in five years' worth of time. Good luck dealing with that.

 

[Genesis]

Those kidd class pack some punch you know. Have you read up history of spruance class hulls?...and why they were used even for ticonderoga (before dedicated arleigh burke design for AEGIS)? Not to mention the NATO-class style of Taiwan's C4I overall....which mind you probably integrated closely with Japan and US.

Well, China still have those Russian destroyers, modernized to a greater extent than Kidd class mind you, but in a modern naval battle, they would still be vulnerable and they have been relegated to the same role as a 054A more or less.

The falklands decisively proved that only modern fleets with a system similar to AEGIS can survive a battle.

Now this integration, again, your argument almost boils entirely down to China being declared war on by the world.

You have to remember what my first post was about. Someone called 056 mediocre, when he ignored the major benefits that a 056 provides, mission specific capabilities, cheap and easy to operate, as well as fast to built. The first Kamorta was laid down in 06, the first 056 was in 2011, in 60% of the time, we have made more than 10 times the ship number and have delivered 4 more to customers.

 

[Nilgiri]

modernized to a greater extent than Kidd class mind you,

How so? Kidd has very extensive FCS upgrade to proven NATO standards.

but in a modern naval battle, they would still be vulnerable and they have been relegated to the same role as a 054A more or less.

That's where the larger C4I integration comes in. Taiwan is not a force-projector, it will not use its assets in stand-off role.

Now this integration, again, your argument almost boils entirely down to China being declared war on by the world.

Not really, there is much cooperation that will happen whether an adversary declares open war or not. Not to mention the problems China faces in breaking its navy out past the chokepoints of 1st island chain and then ASEAN and then trying to support that fleet far away from its own shores without any requisite support structure for that scale...especially with remote sensing cooperation that would monitor any different strategy trying to be employed before the war. China basically has a good defensive navy for protection against the US + JPN forces given the setup....its not a large scale force projector yet....it would probably need a navy 50% bigger than the USN in raw tonnage and manpower to attempt to effectively do this given the sheer unfortunate geography.

Someone called 056 mediocre,

Fair enough....no one really gets to define classification qualities if they are not proven in battle to begin with imo. Only the US and NATO have done conclusively with their current tech. Till then its just paper warfare at diff scales (1 of this = 1 of that with no underlying concrete evidence), its the natural domain of the dreamers of puny BD found here.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Which makes it exactly incapable of conducting operations in littoral zones. All future conflicts in Asia will inevitably be fought in littoral zones, where nimble ASW equipped and sensor-networked 056's or C13B's (our future builds) will operate. Kamorta class can't get in there with its draft. Even 'plenty of space left open for any future upgrades' will not help there - because that will only increase draft. Useless.

You need small nimble well-armed platforms for littoral warfare. Not 3500 ton behemoth ships. Kora, Khukri and other classes of missile boats which serve in the Indian Navy for operations in shallow water, lack any sort of ASW capability and will be totally dependent on the Kamortas for protection. But Kamorta's draft (which is at least 8 plus meters) will prevent operations in shallow water. Whose bright idea in IN was this?

Guys - look at the stealth littoral platform the US fields (Independence class) - even that has faced criticism in US Navy circles because at 2300+ tons it is way too big and heavy. But draft at 4.3m is only as deep as a 600 ton ship. The trimaran design helped a lot.

Kamorta class draft is just 3.5m,so wth are you talking about?
We have no need of coastal warfare ships except in shallow waters of arabian sea.And for that purpose kamorta has 2x RBU-6000 as well as ACTAS sonar.

 

[Bilal9]

Kamorta class draft is just 3.5m

No offense - but do you have some idea about the connection between size of ship and it's draft?

Ships the size of Kamorta class (3500 tons) will have at a minimum draft of 5m plus IMHO.

Our modified Hamilton class cutter (training ship) Samudra Joy displaces 3200+ tons (less than Kamorta class) and has a draft of 4.6 meters.

What is your source that Kamorta draft is 3.5m?

Kamorta cannot operate in the coastal regions (littoral shelf) in Eastern region.

 

[Genesis]

How so? Kidd has very extensive FCS upgrade to proven NATO standards.

That doesn't mean it is capable. China's Sovremennyy-class has been given modern sensors and control systems. 48 VLS cells have been added.

However, while it is carrying more, it's structure cannot be altered to such an extent, at least not practically, that it can match the efficiency and capabilities of a modern 054A.

Kidd has had none of these modern upgrades, in fact they been in storage for a while, and the condition has not been the best when Taiwan commissioned it.

That's where the larger C4I integration comes in. Taiwan is not a force-projector, it will not use its assets in stand-off role.

It can use it in any role it wishes, but it still cannot act as effectively as a Burke or Atago can. The Kidd class is old. It cannot engage in a way that a 054 with a 052 or 055 can. It is at most a glorified missile launcher.

Not really, there is much cooperation that will happen whether an adversary declares open war or not. Not to mention the problems China faces in breaking its navy out past the chokepoints of 1st island chain and then ASEAN and then trying to support that fleet far away from its own shores without any requisite support structure for that scale...especially with remote sensing cooperation that would monitor any different strategy trying to be employed before the war. China basically has a good defensive navy for protection against the US + JPN forces given the setup....its not a large scale force projector yet....it would probably need a navy 50% bigger than the USN in raw tonnage and manpower to attempt to effectively do this given the sheer unfortunate geography.

Defensive navy? What in your view is defensive about it? The Submarines that carry VLS land attack missiles? The second largest fleet of modern replenishment ships? The largest modern destroyer outside of the American Zumwalt? The carriers? The LHDs? The LPDs? (BTW, the LHDs are confirmed via photo, it will be assembled within a reasonable time, his year or early next)

China already has the second largest fleet of LPDs, in less than 5 years, the second largest LHD fleet as well. We will pass Japan for second largest modern destroyers fleet this year and then the difference will get bigger as time goes by.

We can't take on the US, no way. However, since no nuclear power has fought, ever, minus one skirmish between you and Pakistan, I think we are safe on that front.

What, in your mind, limits our ability to project power far from our shores? If we are limited, then who today can do so? Not named the USN.

Fair enough....no one really gets to define classification qualities if they are not proven in battle to begin with imo. Only the US and NATO have done conclusively with their current tech. Till then its just paper warfare at diff scales (1 of this = 1 of that with no underlying concrete evidence), its the natural domain of the dreamers of puny BD found here.

It isn't that, it is the complete lack of understanding on roles that is astounding me. The 056 corvette, or any corvette is not a front line ship, it's main job is to be numerous in number and sufficient in capability. That is the key when discussing this class of ships.

The current discussion is centering on how powerful it is, which is completely beside the point. This is like Hyundai making an Equus, yes it's a good car, but it's still a Hyundai. Let's not kid ourselves. That's not your role, don't even try.

The topic at hand should be how many ships can Bangladesh get in what time frame. Can it accomplish the mission it is set to.

 

[Bilal9]

So yes, you don't have to faced them, but in a conflict, not that there would be one, neither of these two country will come to your aid.

My thoughts exactly.

The fact that you think you have it covered really shows how unprepared the Indian navy is. ASW is unpredictable in the best of times, and yet you think it's no problems at all. This is the same mindset China had 20 years back, it is only through playing these great power games with America has China really realized how limited its capabilities are and started to expand them.

Blithe ignorance and 'head-in-the-sand' syndrome pervades Indian defence thinking from top level to bottom.

@Genesis brother Thanks for your valuable contribution on this thread.

Your country is a true friend to our people and their development aspirations, in spite of Indian hegemony.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

No offense - but do you have some idea about the connection between size of ship and it's draft?

Ships the size of Kamorta class (3500 tons) will have at a minimum draft of 5m plus IMHO.

Our modified Hamilton class cutter (training ship) Samudra Joy displaces 3200+ tons (less than Kamorta class) and has a draft of 4.6 meters.

What is your source that Kamorta draft is 3.5m?

Kamorta cannot operate in the coastal regions (littoral shelf) in Eastern region.

Yes ,heavier and longer ships will no doubt have greater part of its bottom(hull) under water.Kamorta was built in GRSE and floated out in kolkata which is a river port in bad condition due to silt buildup,so i dispute your assertion.Globalsecurity gave me that number,but since i can't find any other source on its draft i can't cobfirm.