Serving Brigadier arrested for suspected links with Hizbut Tahrir

[S.M.R]

The Brigadiers wife says he was arrested for disapproval of Kiyani's strategy and voicing overt criticism. If that's true, it looks like Kiyani is trying to do a Mushy version 2.0 by purging the army of anyone who might show dissent to what seems to be a somewhat embarrassing methodology to date.

I'd be more worried about the intricate network of CIA informants such as those picked up in Abbotabad noting down license plates and others who are coasting through our cities daily than a Brigadier voicing constructive criticism to a flawed US-booty-kissing strategy. Unless Kiyani wants his trousers taking off him again on show to the worlds stage for a second month in a row?

What his wife says is told by her husband, probably before arrest, he's gone missing since May 6. Btw, do we tell our wives everything about our profession? NO. And the person especially who is on a very crucial position and shares something about his profession with his wife, doesnt deserve to be on that position.

My 1 ruppee....

 

[MastanKhan]

Our people are never content with what they get, the Americans give us aid and they cry foul, the Americans stop it(1990s) and they cry foul. Civilian govt takes power, they are dubbed as kuttas, they are replaced by military and they are then dubbed as kuttas. The Taliban control FATA, the people boo the military for inaction, when we launch ops, they boo us for human rights violations. What are we to do ?

Hi,

Thank you for your post----if you ask me----partly it is a marketing problem---partly it is strategy----. But most of the part, it is not understanding the consequences in time---not understanding how to STOP ON A DIME AND CHANGE DIRECTION IN MID STRIDE and go after the new target with same zeal and enthusiaism---partly not understanding how to change old loyalties on the run----.

In order for the pak millitary to face the challenges of the 21st century successfully, it will have to change its approach towards problems and issues----the attitude of rigidity and maintenance of status quo would have to be changed to flexibility and adjusting to changing scenarios in the theatre at lightening speeds.

It will also have to change its ISPR spokes person and its personna. Instead of a general staff level officer----pak millitary will have to find a captain, major, colonel ranking officers---somebody younger---with a full head of hair cut short and no mustache----someone attractive to women folks---who can talk with a smile on his face even when he knows that he is being reamed publicly.

If I was an advisor to Musharraf in 2001---I would have advised him deifferently. Identify the enemy---engage the enemy---neutralize the enemy---market yourself better in the public eyes---market the image of the army better in the public eye---do a massive propaganda against the al qaeda right from the gitgo---. Used the example of muslim caliphs who took out insurgencies and insurgents---gave it an islamic spin around to complement the position of taking out the fundamentals and radicals----setup anti terrorists courts and handed expedited punishments through assigned judges---capitol punishemnt enforced at a lightening pace---a rule of order forced through the society---severe and examplary punishments for crimes enforced to divert the attention of the public from actions taken aganist the jihadis.

Kakgeta---my brother---the problem is not the millitary---the problem is about the half ars-ed jobs that it has been doing for the last ten years---if you are millitary then act like millitary---recognize the target--acknowledge what it do to you---take action----neutralize the target in the shortest possible time---refrain from any peace deal when you have encircled the enemy---go for the jugular---stick the knife in the heart when you have the chance-----.

You wanted to be a nice and kind millitary---Kakgeta---you know thaty---that you can't have that---there is no such thing as nice and kind millitary.

 

[Icarus]

Hi,

Thank you for your post----if you ask me----partly it is a marketing problem---partly it is strategy----. But most of the part, it is not understanding the consequences in time---not understanding how to STOP ON A DIME AND CHANGE DIRECTION IN MID STRIDE and go after the new target with same zeal and enthusiaism---partly not understanding how to change old loyalties on the run----.

In order for the pak millitary to face the challenges of the 21st century successfully, it will have to change its approach towards problems and issues----the attitude of rigidity and maintenance of status quo would have to be changed to flexibility and adjusting to changing scenarios in the theatre at lightening speeds.

It will also have to change its ISPR spokes person and its personna. Instead of a general staff level officer----pak millitary will have to find a captain, major, colonel ranking officers---somebody younger---with a full head of hair cut short and no mustache----someone attractive to women folks---who can talk with a smile on his face even when he knows that he is being reamed publicly.

If I was an advisor to Musharraf in 2001---I would have advised him deifferently. Identify the enemy---engage the enemy---neutralize the enemy---market yourself better in the public eyes---market the image of the army better in the public eye---do a massive propaganda against the al qaeda right from the gitgo---. Used the example of muslim caliphs who took out insurgencies and insurgents---gave it an islamic spin around to complement the position of taking out the fundamentals and radicals----setup anti terrorists courts and handed expedited punishments through assigned judges---capitol punishemnt enforced at a lightening pace---a rule of order forced through the society---severe and examplary punishments for crimes enforced to divert the attention of the public from actions taken aganist the jihadis.

Kakgeta---my brother---the problem is not the millitary---the problem is about the half ars-ed jobs that it has been doing for the last ten years---if you are millitary then act like millitary---recognize the target--acknowledge what it do to you---take action----neutralize the target in the shortest possible time---refrain from any peace deal when you have encircled the enemy---go for the jugular---stick the knife in the heart when you have the chance-----.

You wanted to be a nice and kind millitary---Kakgeta---you know thaty---that you can't have that---there is no such thing as nice and kind millitary.

The military has tried all possible approaches to make itself more acceptable to the average Pakistani and the world as a whole. But, people always manage to find some cause of discontentment regardless. The military can't change as per the wishes of the people until the people have one wish, a single form in which they wish to see the military. No matter how successfully the military tries to market itself, politicians will play on the "Military controls everything card", not realizing how damaging that is to the country. And in the end as ever before, it will always boil down to why the military gets plots, budget, coups, free medical care and garrison clubs.
Another point I wish to bring to light is that the general population divides the military into segments, Generals are American slaves, senior officers are under pressure from generals to submit to American wishes and the all too familiar comment "Chote afsar aur sepoy theek hain", I have said so before and will say so again, the military is like one body, you cannot separate one part from the other. It's either one of us, or all of us......................

 

[53fd]

Hi,

Thank you for your post----if you ask me----partly it is a marketing problem---partly it is strategy----. But most of the part, it is not understanding the consequences in time---not understanding how to STOP ON A DIME AND CHANGE DIRECTION IN MID STRIDE and go after the new target with same zeal and enthusiaism---partly not understanding how to change old loyalties on the run----.

In order for the pak millitary to face the challenges of the 21st century successfully, it will have to change its approach towards problems and issues----the attitude of rigidity and maintenance of status quo would have to be changed to flexibility and adjusting to changing scenarios in the theatre at lightening speeds.

It will also have to change its ISPR spokes person and its personna. Instead of a general staff level officer----pak millitary will have to find a captain, major, colonel ranking officers---somebody younger---with a full head of hair cut short and no mustache----someone attractive to women folks---who can talk with a smile on his face even when he knows that he is being reamed publicly.

If I was an advisor to Musharraf in 2001---I would have advised him deifferently. Identify the enemy---engage the enemy---neutralize the enemy---market yourself better in the public eyes---market the image of the army better in the public eye---do a massive propaganda against the al qaeda right from the gitgo---. Used the example of muslim caliphs who took out insurgencies and insurgents---gave it an islamic spin around to complement the position of taking out the fundamentals and radicals----setup anti terrorists courts and handed expedited punishments through assigned judges---capitol punishemnt enforced at a lightening pace---a rule of order forced through the society---severe and examplary punishments for crimes enforced to divert the attention of the public from actions taken aganist the jihadis.

Kakgeta---my brother---the problem is not the millitary---the problem is about the half ars-ed jobs that it has been doing for the last ten years---if you are millitary then act like millitary---recognize the target--acknowledge what it do to you---take action----neutralize the target in the shortest possible time---refrain from any peace deal when you have encircled the enemy---go for the jugular---stick the knife in the heart when you have the chance-----.

You wanted to be a nice and kind millitary---Kakgeta---you know thaty---that you can't have that---there is no such thing as nice and kind millitary.

The Pakistan Army has "flipped flopped" in its stance, just as the NATO Forces have in Afghanistan. The Pakistan Army has to make decisions in the country looking at all the "involved parties" in the region.

 

[MastanKhan]

Has Pakistan’s military been infiltrated by extremists?
June 22, 2011
By Imtiaz Gul

A few days after the May 2nd Abbottabad raid by the U.S. Navy SEALs, in which al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden was killed, a member of the pro-Taliban Jamiat Ulemai Islam stunned other members of the Pakistani parliament by asking them to offer condolences for “the departed soul of bin Laden.” In a house of 342 members, only two others joined Maulana Asmatullah Khan in the prayer. Maulana Attaurrehman, a former minister for tourism, was also among the three bin Laden sympathisers. (Attaurrheman’s party, the JUI-F, was until recently part of the coalition government led by President Asif Ali Zardari, and has been a vocal supporter of the Afghan Taliban in the past.)

Once done with the prayers, Deputy Speaker Faisal Kareem Kundi admonished Asmatullah Khan for inviting condolence prayers without his permission. The matter died then and there.

But the incident underscored the sympathy or empathy, however limited, in Pakistan for bin Laden’s ideology. It was also reflected in the hundreds of leaflets that were distributed in the Rawalpindi cantonment, where the mighty army is headquartered, on May 15. To the surprise of many, residents found provocative pamphlets at their doorsteps, dated May 7th, and signed by Hizb ut-Tahrir, a radical outfit.

Sir,

There have always been radicals in all the armies---shiv sena sympathizers one place---some white superamacists at other place---anti palestinians in one army---there is always that element.

 

[muse]

If a serving brigadier can be co-opted, what is the extent of extremist infiltration in the lower ranks? The high command needs to intelligently counter the rising radical trend. A thorough cleansing is needed. This is undoubtedly a major challenge, as countering religiosity and a jihadi spirit that has been nurtured over decades is not easy. But it is a challenge the army must take up.

Extremism within | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

However Ch. Nisar of PML-N says

he was not aware of the background of the case, but he was concerned over such atmosphere of suffocation in which every practising Muslim was doubted. “I want to say here that the basis of Pakistan armed forces were rooted in Islamic faith and belief, and the whole nation considers them custodian of Islam,”

And that

He said his party and party leadership were proud of the fact that its politics was based on liking for Islam. “We have deviated from the real path of Islam, which is the cause of today’s problems for the country,

Only the deranged would even question that we have a Izlum problem, but what is very worrying is that major political parties do not understand what they are playing with - when what is "real" Islam becomes politics, what suffers?? And Pakistanis seem to have no answer to the Islam equals Jihadism and Khalifate, ideas interestingly coming out of the UK

Add to this that the US has signaled as clearly as it can that it will drone Pakistan at will and even conduct ground operations if required, unless the Pakistan army lives up to pledges it has made to counter radicalism -- and of course is in no position to counter something that is destroying it from within

 

[53fd]

However Ch. Nisar of PML-N says

And that

Only the deranged would even question that we have a Izlum problem, but what is very worrying is that major political parties do not understand what they are playing with - when what is "real" Islam becomes politics, what suffers?? And Pakistanis seem to have no answer to the Islam equals Jihadism and Khalifate, ideas interestingly coming out of the UK

Add to this that the US has signaled as clearly as it can that it will drone Pakistan at will and even conduct ground operations if required, unless the Pakistan army lives up to pledges it has made to counter radicalism -- and of course is in no position to counter something that is destroying it from within

I would like to analyze the situation of the Pakistan Army by comparing it to the NATO & US Forces in Afghanistan. While there have been question marks raised over the Pakistan Army's [a) as an institution, or b) certain elements inside that are working against the institution] loyalty in tackling extremists in the region, the exact same question can be asked of the NATO & US Forces (which hasn't been asked as of yet), especially when the primarily goal of the US & NATO Forces is to tackle Al-Qaeda terrorists & their safe havens. Instead, we get to see that they have abandoned the areas of Kunar & (parts of) Nuristan, & let the Al-Qaeda reclaim them. On top of that, they have brokered peace deals & power transferring mechanisms with the extremists, asked the UN to remove the names of senior Taliban leaders from its sanctions list. Have the US & NATO Forces been infiltrated by extremists that do not want to tackle extremists, or is the US & NATO Forces responsible for this inactivity against the extremists as an institution. Probably the latter in the US & NATO Forces case, which isn't any better either. For me, this question (whether the Army is infiltrated by extremists, or acting as an institution) doesn't really matter. The important thing is the inactivity against extremists.

 

[Bratva]

Last year Shamsi Airbase commander Lt.Colonel Shahid bashir was arrested on similar charges and he is being court martialled for similar reasons.

Mr.Kakegat. there is only one bone of contention and i strongly dislike this thing about army. If Army is holding it's discipline in such high regards, they should have made Corrupt generals an example too infront of Public, Like National Logistics Cell corrupt generals and others cases. Why is that Army publisizes Militant links Army men being held and we never heard Army men involved in corruption being prosecuted.

That's what i strongly want to see in Army.

 

[muse]

Have the US & NATO Forces been infiltrated by extremists that do not want to tackle extremists, or is the US & NATO Forces responsible for this inactivity against the extremists as an institution.

Bilal, what's the point of this question - US NATO may well be the scum of the earth, but how does that make our problem go away??


The whole Islam-ism and Ji-had business is a net loser for the Pakistan army -- if it does not kill it now, it, the Pakistan army, will only die a quicker death in the near future - it really doesn't matter who is pulling what lever, either way, islamist will kill Pakistan - do you follow??


So what can be done?? Kill the freaking Islamist first, Kill insurgents - the US COIN is a dog - that 80 percent in the middle, they want to be won, like girls want to be "won" and your experience will tell you that effort, if it is to be successful, has to be determined, resolute and forceful.

 

[MastanKhan]

The military has tried all possible approaches to make itself more acceptable to the average Pakistani and the world as a whole. But, people always manage to find some cause of discontentment regardless. The military can't change as per the wishes of the people until the people have one wish, a single form in which they wish to see the military. No matter how successfully the military tries to market itself, politicians will play on the "Military controls everything card", not realizing how damaging that is to the country. And in the end as ever before, it will always boil down to why the military gets plots, budget, coups, free medical care and garrison clubs.
Another point I wish to bring to light is that the general population divides the military into segments, Generals are American slaves, senior officers are under pressure from generals to submit to American wishes and the all too familiar comment "Chote afsar aur sepoy theek hain", I have said so before and will say so again, the military is like one body, you cannot separate one part from the other. It's either one of us, or all of us......................

Kakgeta,

Millitary has tried the old known ways of marketing----it needs to change its face----. Milltary does not need to make itself acceptable to the pakistani public----millitary is millitary---pakistani public needs to makes itself understand the millitary. Millitary is not a police force that it makes itself acceptable to the public. That is what the millitary needs to market.

I empathize with what you are saying about how the public makes differences between the heirarchy----but that needs to be marketed by the millitary as well----junior officers and soldiers are worker bees----mid level officers are like office managers---general staff officers are like the corporate managers / members of the board----which mean that each and every segment of the millitary may have a different segments but they are a well tuned and well oiled machine which moves on the directives of the corporate managers---.

The millitary cannot satisfy the wishes of all the people---because the eye glasses that the millitary has, no civilian has access to them---and the looking glass that they look through and what they can see and analyze---a civilian would go blind just by the glare of the light streaming through. Whereas a civilian may not have any comprehension of what a pre-emptive strike is and it is neccessary to make one, two or ten of them, it is the job the of the millitary to make a headway.

In any millitary action or reaction---the time is the biggest enemy of the armed forces---I don't need to sell this ideology to any soldier---you know it better than me----Napolean lost his battle for what----his flanks moved one minute late----libyan war is becoming a stalemate and deadlier because nato moved two weeks late---.

 

[indushek]

The military has tried all possible approaches to make itself more acceptable to the average Pakistani and the world as a whole. But, people always manage to find some cause of discontentment regardless. The military can't change as per the wishes of the people until the people have one wish, a single form in which they wish to see the military. No matter how successfully the military tries to market itself, politicians will play on the "Military controls everything card", not realizing how damaging that is to the country. And in the end as ever before, it will always boil down to why the military gets plots, budget, coups, free medical care and garrison clubs.
Another point I wish to bring to light is that the general population divides the military into segments, Generals are American slaves, senior officers are under pressure from generals to submit to American wishes and the all too familiar comment "Chote afsar aur sepoy theek hain", I have said so before and will say so again, the military is like one body, you cannot separate one part from the other. It's either one of us, or all of us......................

Can i ask a question regarding your POV

The first bolded part, Why in the name of god should the army try to please anybody except the civilian authority ??

The second bolded part is like an answer to my question but it is important that it is answered, is it because of the second bolded part the first one i.e. pleasing and wooing of general public has to be done??

The third bolded part is interesting, i mean if the whole military is on one page how do u explain these exceptions (like the arrested brigadier) are cropping up?? Let me be straight, during the times of war with the soviets and later the Kashmir liberation the army did work with the LET's and other organisations etc for obvious gains which is not my contention. My pov is that when u have given free hand on an issue for certain time to the people in your setup which doesn't mean all of them but only those who are tasked with and later due to hazards want to cut it back can it be successful??

 

[53fd]

Bilal, what's the point of this question - US NATO may well be the scum of the earth, but how does that make our problem go away??

The Pakistan Army cannot think in a "one dimensional way", especially when there are other "parties" involved that keep changing their stances (NATO Forces, extremists etc). It is understandable that the Pakistan Army adjusts its stance in accordance to the shift in policy in Afghanistan, by both the terrorists & the NATO Forces. I do not find anything wrong with that.

Eventually, it is upto Pakistan & Afghanistan to resolve the issues of extremism inside their respective countries, not the US. As of now, I think the Pakistan Army has been given a very stern reminder that the extremists are a danger to the country in the long run, & I don't think you will see them revert back to them as it has seen the light. However, there is a danger, with the rising anti-Americanism in Pakistan, that despite the dislike people have for these extremists; they might choose them over the US; & eventually over the Pakistan Army, for siding with the US. The Pakistan Army is carefully calculating its next moves in the short run, as well as the long run. To summarize: expect to see different short & long term strategies from the Pakistan Army, if you know what I mean. No way will the Pakistan Army revert back to these groups in the long run, as they have only brought misery to Pakistan. It will be much easier for the Pakistan Army to take actions against extremist groups in the region once the US leaves the region, with the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis supporting the Pakistan Army. I hope I've clarified my position to you. Looking to hear from you.

 

[Icarus]

Last year Shamsi Airbase commander Lt.Colonel Shahid bashir was arrested on similar charges and he is being court martialled for similar reasons.

Mr.Kakegat. there is only one bone of contention and i strongly dislike this thing about army. If Army is holding it's discipline in such high regards, they should have made Corrupt generals an example too infront of Public, Like National Logistics Cell corrupt generals and others cases. Why is that Army publisizes Militant links Army men being held and we never heard Army men involved in corruption being prosecuted.

That's what i strongly want to see in Army.

What corrupt generals ? If any general is found guilty of corruption, he will have to stand trail. The military justice system is impartial. Most of these corruption scandals are highly exaggerated rumours, nothing else.........corruption in the army is a very tough task to accomplish. There are always eyes on you, always someone over you.

 

[Icarus]

Can i ask a question regarding your POV

The first bolded part, Why in the name of god should the army try to please anybody except the civilian authority ??

The army thrives on the affection of the people. The politicians are usually there to order us to a slaughter and then blame the whole episode on us as well, case in point: 71 and 99. In this situation, we are bound to stay quite in respect to our oath. In this situation, it is the support of the people that keeps our morale high, that's why it's important in conventional warfare.
In LIC, the respect of the people is even more important, otherwise they will shelter and support that other belligerent(BLA or Taliban in our case) which makes our job difficult if not impossible.

The second bolded part is like an answer to my question but it is important that it is answered, is it because of the second bolded part the first one i.e. pleasing and wooing of general public has to be done??

No, the second bold text is a consequence of grievances resulting from the lack of trust in the military.

The third bolded part is interesting, i mean if the whole military is on one page how do u explain these exceptions (like the arrested brigadier) are cropping up?? Let me be straight, during the times of war with the soviets and later the Kashmir liberation the army did work with the LET's and other organisations etc for obvious gains which is not my contention. My pov is that when u have given free hand on an issue for certain time to the people in your setup which doesn't mean all of them but only those who are tasked with and later due to hazards want to cut it back can it be successful??

Well, to a junior officer or a jawan, his superior officer is like God's gift to him. In the junior's eyes, his senior is all-knowing and will never lead him wrong. It is this trust which enables Jawans to run into the line of fire at the hint of their commander without the fear of death or injury. This trust is sacred and the constant finger pointing at the army is shaking that trust, which results in problems like that of the Brigadier in question, they look elsewhere for a substitute to their senior commanders in whose abilities and beliefs they can repose their trust.

 

[Jango]

5 people caught from an army of 600000 is not that bad, in the army you can never do these kind of things and get away. You have military intelligence all over the place and you have a strict code in place.