Separation of Mosque and State

[Sheikh Rauf]

Deen e islam is the reason we took this country. Muslims sud not imagin their life without deen..
People who want religion seprate from state sud look at the morality of west.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Yes it was ... Read about Misaq e Medina

No it wasn't.
I have read more about the HIS life, I am sure of that.

If it was supposed to be separate, than Quran would not have stated laws related to the state.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

Secularism does not kill people

Islamism does

Are u a Muslim?

 

[VCheng]

D) It will not make any difference, separated or not.

 

[Russell]

Secularism has failed as a system.

My point is what Allama Iqbal had said in his poetry:

جلال پادشاہی ہو کہ جمہوری تماشا ہو
جدا ہو دیں سیاست سے تو رہ جاتی ہے چنگیزی

The USSR was a secular state where religion and her way life was oppressed.

USSR was a communist state - Communism as an ideology thought religion to be a competing entity and therefore - in effect banned it.

A secular state doesn't say there can be no organized religion or that people can't practice their faith - it simply says, the govt cannot and should not make decisions based on religion.

There are varying degrees to which countries are secular - for example - the French and Americans see things quite differently!

 

[Verve]

i used to think that the lower class of this country are better then the upper class. i made this opinion by seeing the fact that usually poor people go to mosques and usually rich ones go to clubs etc but then i realized that each class in pak has its own set of ills . the soul of islam cant be found in any class of people in pakistan . the poor people recite Quran and offer their prayers but only in arabic without understanding a single word of islam . islam is not set of rituals like namaz, roza, quran khawani. if you read Quran without understanding it is of no use. same is for namaz. thats why people from lower classes fall prey to jahil mullah who uses religion as his tool to fool others. women rights are grossly neglected in the lower class and they are killed in the name of islam. most of the terrorists belong to the lower class . they have emotional attachment with religion but have zero knowledge so they get brain washed easily. the upper class usually doesnt even read Quran in arabic. they believe what they see on TV and read in science books. they dont have even emotional attachment with religion . for them religion is just a set of rituals. they are blind folded by the materialism of this world and the race to get ahead becomes the ultimate aim of life.
remember islam is not just set of rituals. you wont get anything by reading Quran in a language you dont understand. that's why i said before that a muslim is the one WHO KNOWS ISLAM AND WHO LIVES ISLAM.

I agree with above and understanding Quran and reflection without bias is a must. But I also understand the difficulty in finding the 'true muslims'.

Issue is that in our society there are a lot of liberal fascists and atheists converts. Add to those the sects and the true muslim has no choice but to hide his love for Allah (S.W.T) and Prophet (S.A.W) in his heart. Either you get labelled as a molvi or the 'we are the ones' from the sects come down on you. Hence the difficulty as they don't tend to share their thoughts much. It is journey and a struggle and whosoever is on that path is a true muslim in my opinion.

 

[M. Sarmad]

If it was supposed to be separate, than Quran would not have stated laws related to the state.

Laws related to the "State" ??

There is no concept of a state/country (local or global) in the Holy Quran and the concept of "State", as we understand it today, just like modern secularism, is a (recent) western concept


The Holy Quran does not prescribe any worldly punishment for any Religious offence


There are only four offences for which a specified punishment is stipulated in the Quran , namely adultery, theft, slanderous accusation and highway robbery .... Now if one were to review the whole theory of these hudud from a strictly Quranic perspective, the hudud can no longer be seen as mandatory and fixed penalties ....

The four Quranic verses on hudud consist basically of two provisions each, one specifying the offence and its punishment, and the other that provides for reformation and repentance. There is no expatiation beyond these terms. The question that arises is that the fiqh blueprint on hudud has essentially ignored the latter portion of the text. Only the penalties were adopted but no provision was made to implement or contextualise the repentance (tawbah) and reformation (islah) aspects of the hudud. A structure of penalties, indeed a penal system, was thus envisaged that provide virtually no space for an educational and reformative exercise - presumably because of the shortcomings of the pre-modern system of criminal justice .


Modern criminal law and jurisprudence (like Quran) also advise a restrictive approach to punishments. Two things become absolutely clear if one reads Holy Quran :

1) Allah says that there is no compulsion in religion [2:256], It is a matter of free choice , No one is allowed to to force anyone in religious affairs . It is only for Allah to decide the punishment for religious offences (in the after life)

2) Crimes that cause disturbance in the society (theft , robbery etc.) are punishable offenses



In any modern Secular state ;

1) Religion is a personal matter and not the business of the state

2) Crimes that cause disturbance in the society are punishable offenses



So, a "state" based on Quranic teachings would be "secular" (in essence)!! After all, Muslim Philosophers like Ibn e Rushd (d.1198) are considered "founding father of modern secular thought" in western Europe ... Secularism is not as "western" as Mullahs will have us believe ...

 

[Khanate]

Iqbal ?

Iqbal says about separation of state and church/mosque (i.e secularism) that:

Islam, as a religio-political system, no doubt does permit such a view ...

(Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam)

Context.

Iqbal backed secularism for the sake of Hindu-Muslim unity which was at its height during the Khilafat movement but that fell apart when Hindutva movements and Shuddhikaran movements took off. Hindu nationalist like B. S. Moonje after the round table conference went to Italy to meet fascist leader Mussolini. B. S. Mooje was the mentor of K. B. Hedgewar and closely associated with RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh). These developments led Iqbal to warm up to Two-Nation theory.

Now before you claim this was just irrational fear on part of Iqbal, read "We or Our Nationhood Defined" by M. S. Golwalkar, a key figure in Hindutva movements, in which he not only praised Hitler's ethnic cleansing of Jews but also advised that Hindus should learn from Hitler.

"To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races -- the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by." (We, p.35/p.43)​

 

[Moonlight]

Secularism does not kill people

Islamism does

They say think before you speak.

Islam doesn't ask to kill people. If these fake mullahs are spreading hate, it has nothing to do with Islam.

The idea of Islam is being presented completely differently.

 

[Verve]

Laws related to the "State" ??

There is no concept of a state/country (local or global) in the Holy Quran and the concept of "State", as we understand it today, just like modern secularism, is a (recent) western concept


The Holy Quran does not prescribe any worldly punishment for any Religious offence


There are only four offences for which a specified punishment is stipulated in the Quran , namely adultery, theft, slanderous accusation and highway robbery .... Now if one were to review the whole theory of these hudud from a strictly Quranic perspective, the hudud can no longer be seen as mandatory and fixed penalties ....

The four Quranic verses on hudud consist basically of two provisions each, one specifying the offence and its punishment, and the other that provides for reformation and repentance. There is no expatiation beyond these terms. The question that arises is that the fiqh blueprint on hudud has essentially ignored the latter portion of the text. Only the penalties were adopted but no provision was made to implement or contextualise the repentance (tawbah) and reformation (islah) aspects of the hudud. A structure of penalties, indeed a penal system, was thus envisaged that provide virtually no space for an educational and reformative exercise - presumably because of the shortcomings of the pre-modern system of criminal justice .


Modern criminal law and jurisprudence (like Quran) also advise a restrictive approach to punishments. Two things become absolutely clear if one reads Holy Quran :

1) Allah says that there is no compulsion in religion [2:256], It is a matter of free choice , No one is allowed to to force anyone in religious affairs . It is only for Allah to decide the punishment for religious offences (in the after life)

2) Crimes that cause disturbance in the society (theft , robbery etc.) are punishable offenses



In any modern Secular state ;

1) Religion is a personal matter and not the business of the state

2) Crimes that cause disturbance in the society are punishable offenses



So, a "state" based on Quranic teachings would be "secular" (in essence)!! After all, Muslim Philosophers like Ibn e Rushd (d.1198) are considered "founding father of modern secular thought" in western Europe ... Secularism is not as "western" as Mullahs will have us believe ...

So you want to legalise gay marriages in Pakistan and have TV channels show all sorts of gay/lesbian related stuff? Right? And since you are so secular, you will happily watch your family members be exposed to such stuff and then indulge in such activities and be absolutely powerless (according to state law that allows them to do so) to do anything about it all? Will you want your children to experience the life of a secularist and do everything the law of state does not prohibit them to do so?

Surely, you have either completely lost your mind or are an imposter!

 

[M. Sarmad]

Context.

Iqbal backed secularism for the sake of ........

Whatever Context ... The fact remains that Mufakkir e Pakistan was of the view that Islam and Secularism were indeed compatible ..

And when we try telling that to our fellow country men, we are immediately branded Kafir, Secular and whatnot

State-sponsored religious chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion has made our country a living hell

They say think before you speak.

Islam doesn't ask to kill people. If these fake mullahs are spreading hate, it has nothing to do with Islam.

The idea of Islam is being presented completely differently.

Yes, think before you speak

I didn't say Islam asks us to kill (innocent) people

I said Islamism (i.e. Political Islam) is killing people

So you want to legalise gay marriages in Pakistan and have TV channels show all sorts of gay/lesbian related stuff? Right? And since you are so secular, you will happily watch your family members be exposed to such stuff and then indulge in such activities and be absolutely powerless (according to state law that allows them to do so) to do anything about it all? Will you want your children to experience the life of a secularist and do everything the law of state does not prohibit them to do so?

Surely, you have either completely lost your mind or are an imposter!

Look at my post ... And look at your response

I didn't say any of those things

Vent out your frustration somewhere else please

 

[Moonlight]

Whatever Context ... The fact remains that Mufakkir e Pakistan was of the view that Islam and Secularism were indeed compatible ..

And when we try telling that to our fellow country men, we are immediately branded Kafir, Secular and whatnot

State-sponsored religious chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion has made our country a living hell



Yes, think before you speak

I didn't say Islam asks us to kill (innocent) people

I said Islamism (i.e. Political Islam) is killing people

What exactly is Islam'ism? Political Islam? So now you are telling me there are different versions of Islam?

Secularism doesnt tell you to oppress religion, its just separating state and religion and nothing else, secularism in its true sense is ensuring that everyone has the right to live his life as he pleases which includes living your religion as you wish as long as you keep it for yourself.

USSR was oppressive in every sense not only against religion and its cause was definately not secularism.

But Islam was oppressed under secularism in Turkiye.

 

[Hassan Guy]

As long as they legalize marijuana i'm good

But for real, religion has no place in politics

 

[M. Sarmad]

What exactly is Islam'ism? Political Islam? So now you are telling me there are different versions of Islam?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

 

[Moonlight]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

Wikipedia??? SERIOUSLY?

You could have come up with something better.

Peace.