Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[proud_indian]

'There's Been A Hacking:' Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar On Scorpene Leak​

All India | Edited by Shuchi Shukla (With inputs from Agencies) | Updated: August 24, 2016 11:09 IST

Manohar Parrikar has sought report on the leak of data on combat capability of Scorpene-class submarines
​

NEW DELHI: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has sought a report from the Indian Navy chief on the leak of thousands of pages of secret data on the combat capability of the Scorpene-class submarines being built in India in a 3.5-billion-dollar project.

Here is your 10-point cheat-sheet to this story:​

1. "What I understand is that there has been a hacking... the first important thing is to identify if it is related to us," the Defence Minister said after an Australian newspaper reported the leak.
2. Mr Parrikar said that he had learned about the leak at midnight yesterday, and that he expected details in a couple of days.
3. Newspaper The Australian has said it has accessed 22,400 leaked pages, marked "Restricted Scorpene India", of what is essentially the operating manual of the submarine, designed by French defence contractor DCNS for the Indian Navy.
4. The first of six submarines, the INS Kalvari, is now being built at Mumbai's Mazgaon Docks.
5. The submarines are considered some of the most advanced of their class in the world, so silent under water that they are extremely difficult, if not impossible to detect.
6. The classified data now out in the open includes thousands of pages on the submarine sensors and thousands more on its communication and navigation systems as well as nearly 500 pages on the torpedo launch system alone.
7. The Australian reports that DCNS has implied that the leak may have come from India, but the daily said the data was thought to have been removed from France in 2011 by a former French navy officer who at the time was a subcontractor for DCNS.
8. The data is believed to have passed through firms in Southeast Asia before eventually being mailed to a company in Australia, the newspaper said.
9. DCNS has said it has launched an inquiry which "will determine the precise nature of the documents which have been leaked, the potential damage to our customers as well as those responsible."
10. Variants of the submarine are used by Malaysia and Chile. Brazil is also due to deploy the vessels from 2018. Australia has awarded a submarine contract to DCNS, but the secret combat system for the 12 Shortfin Barracudas is being supplied by the United States
11. http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ther...ter-manohar-parrikar-on-scorpene-leak-1449483.

 

[Dash]

Does anyone have the Aussie news data ?

@PARIKRAMA ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Look i wont quote much out here bcz of the nature of events surrounding French cooperation in India and what they are bringing to Indian side.. There is something more than what meets the eyes here..

First why people are sabotaging Scorpene Indian deal?

• The reason lies with the fact that Mazgaon dock limited recently has been undergoing a small expansion which is not much noted in public eyes.
• The expansion cost is approximately Rs 150 Crs
• This expansion is basically a second assembly line comprising of building blocks and pre fabrication stage of submarines.
• This was done for DCNS Subs only ..
• This line is ready for last 6 months and senior MOD folks including DM MP is aware of it, infact have taken a first hand review visit
• The chief feature is 5 scorpene submarines can be built in parallel in the second assembly line
• In simple words here was the real catch, whether its P75 or P75 I, the second assembly line over 6-7 years can let us have 5 new DCNS submarines once ordered.
• Talk about parallel production, bcz this way by 2025-26, an additional 5 submarines of DCNS comes online.
• The DCNS submarines can be either Scorpene or Shortfin

Now the Second point why stopping DCNS from India

• Chiefly due to cooperation level.
• Outside the discussion in public domain, India wants DCNS to bring in Fuel Cell AIP technology for us.
• Our new generation submarines are being planned with pump jet propulsion in order to change the course of our capabilities
• This pump jet is also planned for our black project
• DCNS is also involved in reactor shielding for both ship and sub project
• The Shortfin technology was part of this mammoth understanding between the French and Indian government
• This is the same reason torpedoes (F21) and its inherent derivative tech in varunastra will be seen

Obviously this kind of numbers, technology and most importantly capability in MIC

• filters out the rivals - Amur or TKMS cant help us with this as investment of money, time and capability already made at G2G understanding level
• The numbers of SSK fleet kind of takes care of coastal and shallow depth warfare aspect especially with Fuel Cell AIP providing us the endurance. Now thats not a good news for any side.
• The pump jet, and acoustic reduction tech + other associated tech of Shortfin going into the black project is the game changer which our adversaries dont want. The timeline projected for these submarines to enter Indian service and capability of churning out numbers is a big worry for ppl for the second strike capability perspective.

This is an unprecedented conspiracy and a case of espionage to kill Indian Submarine program.

On Rafale, one must understand the broad contour of cooperation involves an Air-Sea-Land angle. Air is Rafale, Sea is Submarines, Land has a side too.. Cant disclose on that as of now but you would anyway hear soon about the land angle. In short there are companies involved in this G2G cooperation with big names like Dassault, Thales, DCNS, Safran, etc.

Since now MOD DM MP will chair an investigation and soon we will know the source of it.. But broadly stepping away from this will require a side to step up and offer such unprecedented cooperation.

If Russian wants to step in then it has to part Project 885 tech which they dont want anyways..
If TKMS wants, its not MAD ability bcz its not fool proof and that has been demonstrated..
USA cant get anything anyways as there are no subs nor any tech they are sharing..
So as you prune through options you will realise whats this whole story and why it has been done..

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Vergennes @Olaf One-Brow @cerberus @SUDIP @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @proud_indian @MilSpec

 

[Malik Usman]

That's awesome..........and its not first time..........after every few months some leaks is coming in India or their security personal disappearing to other countries with their families..................."Pessa Phaink or Tamasha Deek"

 

[GuardianRED]

Look i wont quote much out here bcz of the nature of events surrounding French cooperation in India and what they are bringing to Indian side.. There is something more than what meets the eyes here..

First why people are sabotaging Scorpene Indian deal?

• The reason lies with the fact that Mazgaon dock limited recently has been undergoing a small expansion which is not much noted in public eyes.
• The expansion cost is approximately Rs 150 Crs
• This expansion is basically a second assembly line comprising of building blocks and pre fabrication stage of submarines.
• This was done for DCNS Subs only ..
• This line is ready for last 6 months and senior MOD folks including DM MP is aware of it, infact have taken a first hand review visit
• The chief feature is 5 scorpene submarines can be built in parallel in the second assembly line
• In simple words here was the real catch, whether its P75 or P75 I, the second assembly line over 6-7 years can let us have 5 new DCNS submarines once ordered.
• Talk about parallel production, bcz this way by 2025-26, an additional 5 submarines of DCNS comes online.
• The DCNS submarines can be either Scorpene or Shortfin

Now the Second point why stopping DCNS from India

• Chiefly due to cooperation level.
• Outside the discussion in public domain, India wants DCNS to bring in Fuel Cell AIP technology for us.
• Our new generation submarines are being planned with pump jet propulsion in order to change the course of our capabilities
• This pump jet is also planned for our black project
• DCNS is also involved in reactor shielding for both ship and sub project
• The Shortfin technology was part of this mammoth understanding between the French and Indian government
• This is the same reason torpedoes (F21) and its inherent derivative tech in varunastra will be seen

Obviously this kind of numbers, technology and most importantly capability in MIC

• filters out the rivals - Amur or TKMS cant help us with this as investment of money, time and capability already made at G2G understanding level
• The numbers of SSK fleet kind of takes care of coastal and shallow depth warfare aspect especially with Fuel Cell AIP providing us the endurance. Now thats not a good news for any side.
• The pump jet, and acoustic reduction tech + other associated tech of Shortfin going into the black project is the game changer which our adversaries dont want. The timeline projected for these submarines to enter Indian service and capability of churning out numbers is a big worry for ppl for the second strike capability perspective.

This is an unprecedented conspiracy and a case of espionage to kill Indian Submarine program.

On Rafale, one must understand the broad contour of cooperation involves an Air-Sea-Land angle. Air is Rafale, Sea is Submarines, Land has a side too.. Cant disclose on that as of now but you would anyway hear soon about the land angle. In short there are companies involved in this G2G cooperation with big names like Dassault, Thales, DCNS, Safran, etc.

Since now MOD DM MP will chair an investigation and soon we will know the source of it.. But broadly stepping away from this will require a side to step up and offer such unprecedented cooperation.

If Russian wants to step in then it has to part Project 885 tech which they dont want anyways..
If TKMS wants, its not MAD ability bcz its not fool proof and that has been demonstrated..
USA cant get anything anyways as there are no subs nor any tech they are sharing..
So as you prune through options you will realise whats this whole story and why it has been done..

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Vergennes @Olaf One-Brow @cerberus @SUDIP @Spectre @Ankit Kumar 002 @proud_indian @MilSpec

So this leak is done in such a way as to hope the DM does an Anthony and cancel the contract (or any dealings with DCS) BUT in reality the DM is alot smarter and understand the consequence (hara kiri) and future importance to the MIC and possible (like u mention) to use this as leverage.

Q: Is this leak targeted at the AUS sub deal and the Indian Subs happened to be in the Blast area or is it the other way round? If the Latter why send the leaked data to an Aussie Newspaper?

 

[Shankranthi]

If leak is substantial, you could rule out China. If they had got their hand on some secrets, they would have kept their mouth shut.

Biggest gainer from this (if leak is substantial) would be Russia and USA in that order.

The leak IS substantial. Its unprecedented. I cannot remember the last time when there was a leak of such magnitude and impact.

At this stage everybody's a suspect. Everybody has varying degree of motive. However at this stage its not important to find out who did it. The important thing for India is how to deal with it.

For France the important thing is to find out "who" did it. But that is not my immediate concern (as an Indian).

 

[Spectre]

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance.

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.


@Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.

 

[Shankranthi]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.

User Manuals provide the Max-Min limits of equipment employed. It will provide the maximum operating depth, Max-min speed, electronic signature, heat signature, acrostic signature, speed of torpedo launching, size of torpedo, range of torpedo, range of sensor, frequencies of sensors, signal to noise ratios, sensitivity of sensors, range of communication equipment's, Signal modulation details, modes for various operations, standards used in equipment's, etc. etc.

During operations the commander /captain makes operational decisions based on these parameters. However once these details are know, the enemy can extrapolate the tactics the submarine will use and then formulate strategies to effectively neutralise them. Both actively and passively.

The enemy can work out how to engage with scorpene, at what range, depth, with what tools. Equipment specifications are not a joke and are most certainly kept a secret. We are not talking about details mentioned in marketing brochures, but about details provided to the captain of the vessel to help him operational the submarine.

Its idiotic to think IN will be fine with this. Its a different thing they will smile and put their chin up and say its a minor leak. No one really expects them to say the shit has hit the ceiling. After all "all" leaks are minor for public consumption.

 

[cerberus]

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance.

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.


@Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.

Not much of leak it can be modified and corrected by measures technically

Never the less it more or like looks similar to me how can you can asses subs performance based on data written on 2011

Similar leak was done in Kremlin but the project is still on and going great

 

[Blue Marlin]

I'm not sure what the US would have to gain as it tries to court India, in fact, it'd lose more if India determined the US was behind this incident, like future contracts or consideration, cooperation agreements and diplomatic potential, which is vital as the US tries to keep a certain nation in check, for which India's assistance is very welcomed.

We aren't so desperate for contracts that we'd sabotage a minor deal, for six submarines, just to get a few contracts for systems put into Japanese exported boats, assuming India would even want US systems like Norway does with their Ula replacement or Australia does with their Collins replacement.

If the goal was to boost Japan's export industry and get them a major contract, well that goes again US wishes to expand our own defense industry, so we'd be shooting ourselves in the knee.

The US would lose a lot more then if could potentially gain, as the gains aren't even significant. It's not like we aren't interested in their capabilities though, we just wouldn't go around plastering them on the internet.

Maybe Russia trying to sabotage India's tender and drum up some business for Kilo or Lada or the developmental Kalina class, but again, they'd have much to lose if their fingers are found on the leak.

Now has anyone seen my hat?

they wont leak it because of India they would do it because of the Aussies. even you should know they wanted japan to choose the Japanese sub over the others. the usa does not care as which sub is chosen will get a suite from the USA anyway.
the russains are not capable of such a task. they would offer a stretched variant of the amur with brahmos vls.

nice hat,
have you seen mine.

 

[New Resolve]

If Rafale deal is delayed any longer, the french might even hand over a scorpene to pakistan for inspection.

 

[Shankranthi]

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance.

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.


@Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.

I see that you posted this before me. But these things are usually mentioned in the user manuals.

 

[jha]

This is bad. For everyone involved. IN will think twice before going for more Scorpenes. It calls for a deep investigation.

And this is no leak of manuals. Who knows what else has been leaked ? Just this newspaper has more than 22.4 K pages. How can we be sure that the hacker did not steal more data ?

 

[Dash]

OK let's just wait. But my understanding was that each sub has unique signatures that can only be knon "after" the sub comes out of sea trials ?

 

[cerberus]

User Manuals provide the Max-Min limits of equipment employed. It will provide the maximum operating depth, Max-min speed, electronic signature, heat signature, acrostic signature, speed of torpedo launching, size of torpedo, range of torpedo, range of sensor, frequencies of sensors, signal to noise ratios, sensitivity of sensors, range of communication equipment's, Signal modulation details, modes for various operations, standards used in equipment's, etc. etc.

During operations the commander /captain makes operational decisions based on these parameters. However once these details are know, the enemy can extrapolate the tactics the submarine will use and then formulate strategies to effectively neutralise them. Both actively and passively.

The enemy can work out how to engage with scorpene, at what range, depth, with what tools. Equipment specifications are not a joke and are most certainly kept a secret. We are not talking about details mentioned in marketing brochures, but about details provided to the captain of the vessel to help him operational the submarine.

Its idiotic to think IN will be fine with this. Its a different thing they will smile and put their chin up and say its a minor leak. No one really expects them to say the shit has hit the ceiling. After all "all" leaks are minor for public consumption.

Pure BS leaks are done on data return 2011

The scorpene sub's have different parameters for different subs


Suppose last scorpene sub's are filled with Indian AIP and sensors system
Any technical parameters can be changed its all about algorithms


As far to this leak it looking minor
Let the report come