Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Olaf One-Brow]

Biggest gainer from this (if leak is substantial) would be Russia and USA in that order.

Explain. I've given some counterpoints as to why I think it's not in the US interest (state sponsored leaks).

https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...-submarines-leaked.445677/page-7#post-8606667

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

I smell happiness at TKMS headquarters lol

But the said leak, @PARIKRAMA how does it affect the operations? Meaning is there any chance which will make the Kalavari more vulnerable?

For a moment if say China does obtain details about its diesel engines , or some special design features , will it affect Scorpenes here ?

Personally thinking No. Scorpenes fulfill the coastal defence role perfectly and we will eventually have a dozen of them for coastal operations.

Australians will be having a bigger problem.Paying 50+ Billion USD , yet no guarantee that their best submarines details will be safe.


Coming back , the Kalavari as of today and some time down the line will be quite different from the Scorpene w.r.t. communication equipment, surveillance equipment , weapons and AIP.


But I really see Germans and Russians taking a respite.

On our side a comprehensive audit about capabilities after the leak should be carried out by Navy , and a investigation by MoD.

 

[A_Poster]

Explain. I've given some counterpoints as to why I think it's not in the US interest (state sponsored leaks).

https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-7#post-8606667

Even if USA has not leaked this, they/you still stand to gain most from undermining ofFrench reputation, iff leak is substantial and from inside DCNS.

Your counterpoints only pertain to why USA would not leak the information.

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

Even if USA has not leaked this, they/you still stand to gain most from undermining Franch reputation, iff leak is substantial and from DCNS.

Why? Why would the US benefit? For a few lousy contracts at the expense of future cooperation with both India and France?

The risk/reward seems very heavily weighted to risk. There's simply no value in undermining a few submarines, that US allies are also buying and integrating US systems into. It makes little sense.

 

[A_Poster]

Why? Why would the US benefit? For a few lousy contracts at the expense of future cooperation with both India and France?

The risk/reward seems very heavily weighted to risk. There's simply no value in undermining a few submarines, that US allies are also buying and integrating US systems into. It makes little sense.

USA would benefit a lot as France is its direct competitor in arms market for western systems. It is not just few lousy submarines.

USA would benefit ,even if it has not leaked the information, as a major leak from inside DCNS would undermine French reputation, iff the leak is serious enough. Your point only give justification for why USA ITSELF would not sabotage Scorpene, not whether it would benefit from it or not.

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

USA would benefit a lot as France is its direct competitor in arms market for western systems. It is not just few lousy submarines.

Not really. The two nations make a few competing items (exocet versus harpoon), but their markets are generally focused on different classes of system.

Let's look at DCNS' non energy products.

Surface naval systems

• Multi-mission frigates: FREMM class frigates
• Multi-mission frigates: Design of Second Generation Patrol Vessel for the Royal Malaysian Navy, based on the Gowind-class corvette
• Air defence frigates: Horizon-class frigates
• Medium-tonnage vessels: Gowind-class corvettes
• Aircraft carriers: French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle
• Helicopter carriers: Mistral-class LHD
• Construction of aerial drones for the navy

Submarines and underwater weapons

• Conventional submarines: the Scorpène class
• Nuclear submarines: device-launching nuclear submarines Triomphant class and Redoutable class
• F21 heavy torpedoes
• MU90 light torpedoes

Nothing really competes with US business does it? The US doesn't export submarines or Assault Ships/Carriers, its LCS is a different class of ship then FREMM and the frigate version is still years away. Patrol vessels maybe, but the Legend Class isn't yet for sale:

Torpedoes? Yeah, sure. But India is already a customer of US torpedoes including the MK54.

There's no real competition between the US or US companies and DCNS. So why undermine them?

Your point only give justification for why USA ITSELF would not sabotage Scorpene, not whether it would benefit from it or not.

Uh yeah, that's the f*cking point. How could the US justify sabotage of the Scorpene if it did or did not benefit? Do you see how those two items go together?

This isn't about Rafale or any other French system they might be selling to India, it's about Scropene class submarines, which I might add US allies like Australia are using and modifying with US fire control systems. If the US sabotaged these submarines and lessened confidence in DCNS it would actually harm US business... which isn't exactly what the US wants.

So India loses Scorpene and picks Soryu instead? Or Kilo? How about Type 216? Would either of these compete with US business? Not really because the US doesn't export submarines and if confidence is diminished in DCNS, Australia could still buy Soryu and put US systems in it and India could buy it too and still not do that.

So what does the US gain or lose? Nothing. No matter the system, even Russian Kilos the situation would remain virtually the same.

France and the US compete in some areas, but sabatoging submarines is NOT going to improve US business.

This scenario doesn't make sense when you start looking into it.

Damn. I need more tinfoil.

...

It's late, I've got work in the morning. We can continue this if you'd like then, but please think about this first.

 

[proud_indian]

https://twitter.com/x/status/768111621394747392

 

[Abingdonboy]

For a moment if say China does obtain details about its diesel engines , or some special design features , will it affect Scorpenes here ?

It depends on the nature of the information "leaked" no one outside of a few in Australia, France and India really know about this so it's impossible to say.

On our side a comprehensive audit about capabilities after the leak should be carried out by Navy , and a investigation by MoD.

No doubt the MoD will conduct their own investigation but if the leak came from France there is little the MoD can do except work with France to see how far the IN's assets have been comprimised (if at all).

In an extreme case the MoD may seek to take punitive action against DCNS as there was no dout a clause within the contract that all sides must prevent the flow of such information outside of agreed parties.

https://twitter.com/x/status/768111621394747392

It's weird that the Australian seems to be the only media outlet with this info. Normally it would be the NYT, Le Mond, The Guardian etc.

I hope France responds swiftly and sternly @Vergennes @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay , they stand to lose A LOT here- not just billions of revenue but reputation/credibility. A case will be made by rivals in the future that France cannot be trusted with sensitive/classified strategic projects.

+ it's interesting that no one has thought to mention the Brazilians, Chileans or Malaysians yet (Scorpene operators also), the entire spotlight/target is France/Australia/India.

 

[proud_indian]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.

PKS is partially correct but he is focusing only on operating parameters. We do not yet know the extent of the "leak" but if it is 24,000 pages long then there is scope for many technical secrets having been at the very least comprimised and these would be present for any Scorpene operator, regardless of area of operation.

 

[Nilgiri]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.

There is also the issue that after reviewing anything that may be somewhat sensitive with a broad latitude (and I'm talking broad here).....DCNS may have various options to retrofit systems so the parameters change enough if any are important enough and merit doing so.....may even do it for cheap/free if the leak is proven to be mostly DCNS based.

Of course doesn't apply to core technologies which we will have to see (from the actions taken down the road by all parties involved).

 

[Abingdonboy]

The leak doesn't appear to have come from India so let's tone it down bro, save this rant for another day. No nation is immune from this sort of thing.

 

[Hellfire]

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: LoLz! That’s another piece of classic yellow journalism. For, the Scorpene has never served in the warm waters of the IOR & therefore there exists no database of the recorded operating parameters of the Scorpene while operating in such waters. Therefore, at bet what may have leaked out are the standard specs which are not secret by any stretch of imagination. The actual operating parameters will become available only after the first-of-type Scorpene enters service with the IN & logs in 18 months of service.

Rightly said, all parameters are available for the general population or people like @PARIKRAMA, who are excellent in collating and presenting data available on open sources for educating people like us with a well thought out critical analysis.

It is the tactics, the SOP and the ultimate deployment parameters that evolve unique to the op planning and ORBAT as country specific that need to be guarded.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is also the issue that after reviewing anything that may be somewhat sensitive with a broad latitude (and I'm talking broad here).....DCNS may have various options to retrofit systems so the parameters change enough if any are important enough and merit doing so.....may even do it for cheap/free if the leak is proven to be mostly DCNS based.

Of course doesn't apply to core technologies which we will have to see (from the actions taken down the road by all parties involved).

It will take some time to conduct a damage report first and then corrective measures will be taken (if needed). If the leak came from DCNS then I have no doubt they will foot the bill and would do so happily.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It is the tactics, the SOP and the ultimate deployment parameters that evolve unique to the op planning and ORBAT as country specific that need to be guarded.

It's not as simple as that brother.

Technical and operational information are entirely different subjects, either of them being comprimised is a HUGE issue. How you employ something doesn't change what it actually is and if the enemy know the strengths (and more importantly weaknesses) of that particular asset then no matter what your SOPs or tactics you are fundamentally disadvatadged.

Again, there is no way of knowing if anything truly classified has been lost but let's not downplay the seriousness of what the Australian is claiming.