Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[MastanKhan]

I mentioned "Multirole" because of a reason, Sir.
Whenever a "specific" mission is planned, the plane is configured according to that mission. The "planning" includes minute details down to the level of how much fuel needed to be carried.
Now as per my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong) Thunder combat radius is 1350KM on internal fuel+2 drop tanks.
Can you provide the combat radius of various single engine fighters?
For a minute assume that Thunder has to fly in 350 km inside enemy space for a mission not 650 or 1350 just 350km. Can you check out the map and tell me how much 350km is on our Eastern border?
Can you tell me how many targets can be covered in 350km?
Is it logical, if your own space is not yet secured and other 350km still has huge lists of targets and you are thinking beyond?
Can you elaborate, even if we have a fighter with 2000KM+ range, which can even strike as far as Southern India or North Eastern regions. Can it really cross all the enemy space without enjoying complete air dominance?
Why are we investing in Stand of Weapons like RAAD or other such goodies?

Short legged or long legged matter little. Its the core competency that matters for a fighter plane.
And I differ on this by Sir @MastanKhan also.

I mentioned in my post that, 150 or so Thunders will be distributed to various squadrons. The squadrons have varying roles, some are trained specifically for CAS and some only for Air defense and some for Naval roles.
The probable goodies mentioned for this thread are most suited for Air superiority squadrons. Hence, the logic say that only 1 or 2 squads at the most will get them. I was just putting forward the cost factor.. purchasing 30 odd kits or 150 kits make a huge difference.

Hi,

The combat radius of the JF 17 in ground strike missions is around 400 to 500 KM---and in air to air missions it is 600 to 700 KM max.

Just because a plane is a multirole plane----it does not change its weight carrying capacity----. The JF 17 is still a chicken little---. With a very limited weight carrying capacity.

You young kids need to use your thinking and stop assuming---. Your enemy----is 3 times your military strength has aircraft which can carry 2 1/2 time the weight of this JF17---and 5 times the number of BVR's.

So--an enemy with its 2 1/2 times hitting capability for its primary strike aircraft is frigging stupid to have that----and the military that is 1 / 3rd the size---it primary strike aircraft has 1 /3rd the hitting capability is strutting around like they have found valhalla----.

On top of that---the enemy's prime strike and air superiority aircraft can loiter around for 5 hours----where your aircraft is only at barely 1 hour----and you guys think of air to air refuelling---which would be taken out by day 2 if not then by the 3rd day---.

Did you young men ever read any books on your air force---that the only time when they had air superiority in 65 and 71 was when they had superior aircraft.

Have you ever read about the 73 ramazan war---what happened to the inferior muslim air force in that war----.

Have you read about the israeli air conflict with syria where the israelis shot down over a 100 syrian aircraft without a single loss----and that was not too long ago---and what was the difference----superior aircraft and weaponery.

You guys really think that your enemy is that big of an idiot to have all these large air superiority aircraft.

Ministry of Defense production book 2013-2014. MFD problems were mentioned in one line. Page 45. "Indigenous efforts were undertaken to recover display issues of JF-17 aircraft"

33 JF-17 had to go for wing strengthening. Air Commodor Khalid Mehmood in one of his interviews. ( which obviously occured after JF crash in 2011. )


And for the Jf-17 firing problems. Someone here I forgot is a friends with JF pilot. He mentioned that JF faced such issues. Concurrently @TaimiKhan and @Najam Khan can confirm that as well.

Hi,

This thing is a norm in a brand new aircraft that is pushed into service too soon---but even then all new first time aircraft have issues----and JF17 is no different.

 

[Tank131]

@MastanKhan is correct regarding the need for heavy strike aircraft. More than their range in the Pakistani Indian theater, its their ability to stay in the fight. The problem becomes where is Pakistan going to get a reasonable/affordable fighter that fits the bill? The J-16/J-11 are too politically inconvenient for the chinese to deliver, and the Su-35 may or may not be on the cards and is supremely well know by the IAF (though in the modern settings of combat i believe that begins to matter less and less on all sides). The only reasonable option that I can see is the JH-7B which has range and payload i the MKIs range. Problem is that it seems exactly like the Panavia Tornado, which when thrown into a close range fight would get obliterated. The jh7b cant maneuver. It would need protection in the form of F-16 or JF-17, But armed with PAFs plethora of standoff weapons it could hit effectively deep into india from even near the border or just across. More importantly... Carrying numerous gb6 it could loiter in Pakistan and wipe out indian infantry and armored columns along with nasr missiles and PA provided it has enough support from PAF fighters SAMs and AWACS. This should however be the plane of choice for strike when it comes to PN. This could carry 1 CM-400AKG and 2 C802a and be protected by JF-17.

That being said...The more i think about it, the more i am intrigued by PAF trying to acquire a small number of H-6K for long rang strike. Armed with GB-6 and Babur (provided they are adequately protected)... They wouls never even need to leave Pakistani Airspace to be effective in combat. They would be able to hit nearly all IAF FOBs from deep inside Pakistan. And with GB6 would wreck IA thrusts.

 

[Quwa]

Since we are on the topic of heavyweight fighters. I also agree, the PAF needs to acquire them, not just for enhanced loitering time, but also for greater tactical flexibility: Expanded payload, ISR, dedicated EW, heck a Flanker's radar can also double as a 'mini-AEW&C.'

For this it'd be best to play the long game with Russia. Seed the idea about the PAF being interested in Su-35 and Su-34, and proceed as normal with all other programs (e.g. JF-17, FC-31). I think as the Indians demonstrate how much they're not into Russian weapons anymore, in time, Russia will open commercial defence ties with Pakistan. Of course, Pakistan getting itself on-track economically is going to be key.

 

[GreenGuy]

I didnt want to interrupt at first but i had to give credit.

Thumbs up for OP and all other senior members here.
This thread and the discussion is quite informative and absence of trolls is such a blessing.

Brings back memories of old defence.pk when trolls were negligible.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@MastanKhan is correct regarding the need for heavy strike aircraft. More than their range in the Pakistani Indian theater, its their ability to stay in the fight. The problem becomes where is Pakistan going to get a reasonable/affordable fighter that fits the bill? The J-16/J-11 are too politically inconvenient for the chinese to deliver, and the Su-35 may or may not be on the cards and is supremely well know by the IAF (though in the modern settings of combat i believe that begins to matter less and less on all sides). The only reasonable option that I can see is the JH-7B which has range and payload i the MKIs range. Problem is that it seems exactly like the Panavia Tornado, which when thrown into a close range fight would get obliterated. The jh7b cant maneuver. It would need protection in the form of F-16 or JF-17, But armed with PAFs plethora of standoff weapons it could hit effectively deep into india from even near the border or just across. More importantly... Carrying numerous gb6 it could loiter in Pakistan and wipe out indian infantry and armored columns along with nasr missiles and PA provided it has enough support from PAF fighters SAMs and AWACS. This should however be the plane of choice for strike when it comes to PN. This could carry 1 CM-400AKG and 2 C802a and be protected by JF-17.

That being said...The more i think about it, the more i am intrigued by PAF trying to acquire a small number of H-6K for long rang strike. Armed with GB-6 and Babur (provided they are adequately protected)... They wouls never even need to leave Pakistani Airspace to be effective in combat. They would be able to hit nearly all IAF FOBs from deep inside Pakistan. And with GB6 would wreck IA thrusts.

JFT can also carry them n same numbers.

However H-6k is a very good idea and this was in my mind too. @Quwa

 

[Tank131]

I didnt want to interrupt at first but i had to give credit.

Thumbs up for OP and all other senior members here.
This thread and the discussion is quite informative and absence of trolls is such a blessing.

Brings back memories of old defence.pk when trolls were negligible.

Hey man... What about some of us new posters (though i was always on old defunct PDF and read here and pakdef a lot). We need some love too!

JFT can also carry them n same numbers.

However H-6k is a very good idea and this was in my mind too. @Quwa

Problem is with jf17 it can carry them but wont have the legs to do to deep ocean and come back without a refuel or really protect itself only 2 a2a missiles and 2 drop tanks. The Jh-7B can carry those 3 missiles. 4 a2a missiles for self protection 2 drop tanks and still have the legs to make it out and back without refuel. And the jf 17 will protect it in its a2a setup.

 

[GreenGuy]

Hey man... What about ulsome of us new posters (though i was always on old defumct PDF and read here and pakdef a lot). We need some love too!

You my friend is included in "senior" part as well.
Senior as in knowledge, not in no. of posts.

No. of posts are insignificant. Trolls can have more any day any time.

All the people indulged in this informative discussion

 

[Quwa]

Hey man... What about some of us new posters (though i was always on old defunct PDF and read here and pakdef a lot). We need some love too!



Problem is with jf17 it can carry them but wont have the legs to do to deep ocean and come back without a refuel or really protect itself only 2 a2a missiles and 2 drop tanks. The Jh-7B can carry those 3 missiles. 4 a2a missiles for self protection 2 drop tanks and still have the legs to make it out and back without refuel. And the jf 17 will protect it in its a2a setup.

Were you a person named 'tank131' back in the day-day?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Will acquiring a western radar mean we will have to abandon Chinese AAMs for JF-17. As per my understanding traditionally weapons and radar are sourced from similar origin. One of the JF-17s greatest plus points has been its capability to field China's latest missiles. China has even more advanced AAMs in R&D and they should be available soon.

If that is the case Pakistan should stick to Chinese and offer western options only as per client request.

As per public info, JF17 architecture is dual redundant 1553 bus with two redundant mission computers. If this element is in control of the Pakistanis, then there is no dependence on the sensor or weapon type for this aircraft.

For the technical enthusiast: Each sensor produces messages to and from the mission computer on the data bus. If the Remote Terminal "RT" is in your control, you can integrate any sensor, display, or weapon in the data bus, with certain limitations of technology.

When Pakistan AF claims (and shows) integration of third party hardware on the aircraft, it clearly proves that they have made the investment in a "SIL" or System Integration Lab. What this does is simulates the complete aircraft in a lap, where the users have control of various elements, and can intergrade systems or sub-systems prior to aircraft deployment. This works against the business interest of the Chinese, who would have liked a closed system so that only their elements are integrated or sold, such as in earlier aircraft sold to Pakistan.

Earlier comments to include "private" companies to undertake JF17 integrations exemplify speculation at most. PAC has complete capability to integrate JF17 avionics and weapons, and no private company maybe required to undertake this task.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hey man... What about some of us new posters (though i was always on old defunct PDF and read here and pakdef a lot). We need some love too!



Problem is with jf17 it can carry them but wont have the legs to do to deep ocean and come back without a refuel or really protect itself only 2 a2a missiles and 2 drop tanks. The Jh-7B can carry those 3 missiles. 4 a2a missiles for self protection 2 drop tanks and still have the legs to make it out and back without refuel. And the jf 17 will protect it in its a2a setup.

Hi,

The importance and utility of the JH7B is multiple----it can be programmed to carry 10 BVR missiles---it can carry jammer pods---give growler type support.

It can give support like the Aamir Hussein's video on the F22's with B2 bomber supporting as a BVR truck---it can also be used for a buddy refueller with the right plumbing---. It is simply a great utility aircraft.

 

[volatile]

theater, its their ability to stay in the fight. The problem becomes where is Pakistan going to get a reasonable/affordable fighter that fits the bill? The J-16/J-11 are too politically inconvenient for the chinese to deliver, and the Su-35 may or may not be on the cards and is supremely well know by the IAF (though in the modern settings of combat i believe that begins to matter less and less on all sides). The only reasonable option that I can see is the JH-7B which has range and payload i the MKIs range. Problem is that it seems exactly like the Panavia Tornado, which when thrown into a close range fight would get obliterated. The jh7b cant maneuver. It would need protection in the form of F-16 or JF-17,

With great respect your arguments doesnt add up ,if JH7B inducted and it needs protection so what the point if some one is there for its protection he can also bomb why we need dedicated bomber .?I think best scenario for Paksitan is keep inducting thunder and F16 probably V which can take care of many things also invest in J31 because like thunder this is going to be future.

 

[Tank131]

With great respect your arguments doesnt add up ,if JH7B inducted and it needs protection so what the point if some one is there for its protection he can also bomb why we need dedicated bomber .?I think best scenario for Paksitan is keep inducting thunder and F16 probably V which can take care of many things also invest in J31 because like thunder this is going to be future.

My friend, in strike packages, even those with high end fighters like F-15s and Su-30, there are those aircraft that are responsible for attack and others that are meant to be escorts. The strike aircraft has an escort because their job is to deliver weapkns to the target by any means and the weapons they carry increase drag to where maneuverability suffers and their weapons stations are occupied by a2g munitions leaving usually only 2 missiles for defense. In other words, their ability to defend themselves is significantly limited. Hence the escorts.

With respect to JH-7Bs use in PAF, its ability to loiter will help protect PA from incursions from acriss the border and it can carry 2x the weaponry of the JF-17 AND 1.5X F-16. Additionally., its endurance means less drop tanks and more weapons without needing to refuel.

 

[volatile]

My friend, in strike packages, even those with high end fighters like F-15s and Su-30, there are those aircraft that are responsible for attack and others that are meant to be escorts. The strike aircraft has an escort because their job is to deliver weapkns to the target by any means and the weapons they carry increase drag to where maneuverability suffers and their weapons stations are occupied by a2g munitions leaving usually only 2 missiles for defense. In other words, their ability to defend themselves is significantly limited. Hence the escorts.

With respect to JH-7Bs use in PAF, its ability to loiter will help protect PA from incursions from acriss the border and it can carry 2x the weaponry of the JF-17 AND 1.5X F-16. Additionally., its endurance means less drop tanks and more weapons without needing to refuel.

Thank you very much for pointing out an other aspect to that .My opinion was based on the fact of opportunity cost .I have seen people here claiming we will have enough money to do this and that ,fact is we don't and CPEC game changer is day dreaming at the moment what my argument was based on current scenario and may be with CAGR not more than 5% in PAF budget this purchase or any purchase seems highly unlikely or affordable unless we are at war .If i were PAF planner i be make sure to get 8 or 18 F16 V and MLU for remaining and put money in thunder program to look some thing in the class b.w block 52 and block 60 for 5 years ,Rafael are not coming soon as Indians will be 3rd/4th in line so no worries .I will put my money on J31 program and try to be partner in Turkey 5th Gen program ,Just my thoughts

 

[MastanKhan]

Thank you very much for pointing out an other aspect to that .My opinion was based on the fact of opportunity cost .I have seen people here claiming we will have enough money to do this and that ,fact is we don't and CPEC game changer is day dreaming at the moment what my argument was based on current scenario and may be with CAGR not more than 5% in PAF budget this purchase or any purchase seems highly unlikely or affordable unless we are at war .If i were PAF planner i be make sure to get 8 or 18 F16 V and MLU for remaining and put money in thunder program to look some thing in the class b.w block 52 and block 60 for 5 years ,Rafael are not coming soon as Indians will be 3rd/4th in line so no worries .I will put my money on J31 program and try to be partner in Turkey 5th Gen program ,Just my thoughts

Hi,

Basically---an enemy of the state of pakistan would further invest in the F16's---be it BLK52---BLK V or the BLK 61 / 62.

The time for the F16 has come and gone---this love affair and drama of the f16 needs to end.

18 F16 based on the current package would cost around 3 billion dollars----which are equal to 60 + J10C's---60 + J16's or 60 + SU35's.

18 newer F16 do nothing to change the power positioning of the air force----but 60 + aicraft of the chinese or russian descent would make a tremendous difference---.

As for the money for the aircraft---it was available----some idiot made the mistake of doing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 submarines stretched over a period of 10---12 years---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

Basically---an enemy of the state of pakistan would further invest in the F16's---be it BLK52---BLK V or the BLK 61 / 62.

The time for the F16 has come and gone---this love affair and drama of the f16 needs to end.

18 F16 based on the current package would cost around 3 billion dollars----which are equal to 60 + J10C's---60 + J16's or 60 + SU35's.

18 newer F16 do nothing to change the power positioning of the air force----but 60 + aicraft of the chinese or russian descent would make a tremendous difference---.

As for the money for the aircraft---it was available----some idiot made the mistake of doing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 submarines stretched over a period of 10---12 years---.

That Idiot who did the submarine deal probably saved Pakistani coast from future seaborne attacks.