Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Quwa]

While we are aware of a Selex ES AESA radar (model unknown) being considered for the JF-17, I wonder if there's potential for deeper cooperation. We know the PAF's ties with any Western vendor will always be on the tough side in terms of cost, supplier-reliability, IP concerns, etc, so we have to keep this in mind as a dampener in terms of expectations. That said, the PAF is managing this well, especially in recent years.

On to the idea.

Selex ES is one of the key vendors behind the Gripen NG, providing that fighter with its Raven ES-05 AESA radar, Skyward IRST, and BriteCloud DRFM decoy.

If you look closely, you'll notice that each of the above programs are distinct from Selex ES' work on the Typhoon; in other words, they're tailor made for the Gripen NG.

You will also notice from the PAF's own wording (from the Paris Air Show article) that while Selex was offering an AESA radar for JF-17, but it never said anything about the model, even though many of us kept referring to the Vixen-series.

For this reason I wonder if Selex is offering a tailor-made solution for the JF-17.

Now I am thinking, could it stop at the radar? Since the PAF openly voiced its interest in equipping the JF-17 with IRST, could Selex offer a specially designed solution on that front too? What about the BriteCloud DRFM-based decoy system (for radar-guided AAM) and Misysis DIRCM (for IR-guided AAM)?

Now asking Selex ES to support a complete sensor suite (AESA radar and IRST) and self-protection kit (based on BriteCloud and Misysis) for JF-17 is an expensive proposition, but it might not be bad.

By building an increasing proportion of the airframe in-house, Pakistan is able to - an extent - control costs in key areas. Unfortunately, it'll still import key materials from elsewhere, so the more it can generate at home (especially in terms of metals and composites) the better. But even if we factor in imports from China, it still isn't expensive, relatively speaking.

With a low-cost airframe and engine, the PAF has a lot of vertical room to build atop on JF-17, it could afford a comparatively pricey sensor and electronic warfare package. The end result could be a platform comparable to the Gripen NG, but at a markedly lower cost. If Selex could secure a PAF order, it'd be providing suites for 50-150 (based on the total 150-250 planned) fighters, possibly more if export orders from the likes of Egypt, Morocco, etc, are secured.

A side point, when you think about the wonder, you really do wonder why the PAF is even giving time to think about new F-16s, especially if it is to pay $80-100mn a unit.

Background on each of Selex ES' subsystems:

BriteCloud - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/britecloud-3

Misysis - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/miysis-dircm-3

Raven ES-05 - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/raven-1

Skyward IRST - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/skyward-1

@Horus, @Bratva, @MastanKhan, @Zarvan @waz @Khafee @araz @HRK @Blue Marlin ; your thoughts?

 

[waz]

You've outlined it well bro. The Selex option would be great. What are the cost implications?

 

[Khafee]

Good thread

First, It would be really great if PAF could get it hands on a SELEX AESA radar. The sub systems come in second. Given Selex's reliability rate, I for one think it would be really a game changer, and another egg on the face of the haters.

A concern SELEX might have, which some manufacturers already do, is the Pak-Chna relationship. This is a bigger hurdle, than the financial aspect.

Best Regards

 

[Purepak-pak]

If it's been offered to PAF then they should go for it

 

[Kompromat]

All included what kind of per unit price are we looking at, since JF-17 is after all a "cost effective" solution which never was meant to "beat" the Gripen-NG in terms of cutting edge technology. I do like the idea as it makes good sense, however costing is a prime consideration here.

@Quwa

 

[Quwa]

Good thread

First, It would be really great if PAF could get it hands on a SELEX AESA radar. The sub systems come in second. Given Selex's reliability rate, I for one think it would be really a game changer, and another egg on the face of the haters.

A concern SELEX might have, which some manufacturers already do, is the Pak-Chna relationship. This is a bigger hurdle, than the financial aspect.

Best Regards

I remember reading a JDW article about PAF deciding to stick with the RD-93, it was released around the time of the Dubai Airshow. The author made the note that the JF-17's development was increasingly becoming independent of China, as evidenced from the PAF opting to stick with the RD-93 and picking up a Spanish ECM.

Vendors should understand that if they push Pakistan into a corner via sanctions or succumbing to Indian pressure, then Pakistan has little choice but to collude with China. The best way to alleviate IP problems is to actually engage in a forthright manner, i.e. set up offices in Pakistan, send people to PAC Kamra to assist, get Pakistani feedback, give Pakistan feedback, etc. In other words, pull Pakistan into the fold, and it will respect IP sensitivity. This doesn't just apply to Pakistan, but the Chinese themselves in their myriad of civil partnerships with European firms.

You've outlined it well bro. The Selex option would be great. What the cost implications?

To be honest it is difficult to tell. Generally speaking Western vendors are going to be more expensive, but to what extent has to be determined on a case-by-case basis. We know the French (across the board) are expensive, ask any of the Rafale buyers, including India. But the British, Italians and Spaniards? It'll depend on the subsystem.

All included what kind of per unit price are we looking at, since JF-17 is after all a "cost effective" solution which never was meant to "beat" the Gripen-NG in terms of cutting edge technology. I do like the idea as it makes good sense, however costing is a prime consideration here.

True it was never meant to 'beat' the Gripen NG, but if ends up being a comparable solution in as far as core capabilities and benefits, then it will have earned a major achievement in terms of being a credible defensive measure.

In terms of pricing, there's no publicly figure on the cost of each subsystem, but I don't think it'll go north of $50-60mn a unit (all-inclusive). This sounds like a lot, but in relative terms, this is a bargain considering that it is still well below similarly equipped fighters, such as the Gripen E/F or F-16V, which will run in-excess of $100mn a unit.

 

[Kompromat]

It would have been made possible if the Thunder deal with KSA had materialized. They came seeking a "Block-60" like version of JF-17 with EJ-200 to create commonality with their Typhoon maintenance regime. If KSA got involved in the project or at least invested cash into it on shared profit basis, we would most definitely have seen a JF-17 block with 4++ generation capabilities. The plans and technology do exist but the cash is missing. You can pretty much add anything to this platform given the bills are paid.

Good thread

First, It would be really great if PAF could get it hands on a SELEX AESA radar. The sub systems come in second. Given Selex's reliability rate, I for one think it would be really a game changer, and another egg on the face of the haters.

A concern SELEX might have, which some manufacturers already do, is the Pak-Chna relationship. This is a bigger hurdle, than the financial aspect.

Best Regards

 

[Blue Marlin]

While we are aware of a Selex ES AESA radar (model unknown) being considered for the JF-17, I wonder if there's potential for deeper cooperation. We know the PAF's ties with any Western vendor will always be on the tough side in terms of cost, supplier-reliability, IP concerns, etc, so we have to keep this in mind as a dampener in terms of expectations. That said, the PAF is managing this well, especially in recent years.

On to the idea.

Selex ES is one of the key vendors behind the Gripen NG, providing that fighter with its Raven ES-05 AESA radar, Skyward IRST, and BriteCloud DRFM decoy.

If you look closely, you'll notice that each of the above programs are distinct from Selex ES' work on the Typhoon; in other words, they're tailor made for the Gripen NG.

You will also notice from the PAF's own wording (from the Paris Air Show article) that while Selex was offering an AESA radar for JF-17, but it never said anything about the model, even though many of us kept referring to the Vixen-series.

For this reason I wonder if Selex is offering a tailor-made solution for the JF-17.

Now I am thinking, could it stop at the radar? Since the PAF openly voiced its interest in equipping the JF-17 with IRST, could Selex offer a specially designed solution on that front too? What about the BriteCloud DRFM-based decoy system (for radar-guided AAM) and Misysis DIRCM (for IR-guided AAM)?

Now asking Selex ES to support a complete sensor suite (AESA radar and IRST) and self-protection kit (based on BriteCloud and Misysis) for JF-17 is an expensive proposition, but it might not be bad.

By building an increasing proportion of the airframe in-house, Pakistan is able to - an extent - control costs in key areas. Unfortunately, it'll still import key materials from elsewhere, so the more it can generate at home (especially in terms of metals and composites) the better. But even if we factor in imports from China, it still isn't expensive, relatively speaking.

With a low-cost airframe and engine, the PAF has a lot of vertical room to build atop on JF-17, it could afford a comparatively pricey sensor and electronic warfare package. The end result could be a platform comparable to the Gripen NG, but at a markedly lower cost. If Selex could secure a PAF order, it'd be providing suites for 50-150 (based on the total 150-250 planned) fighters, possibly more if export orders from the likes of Egypt, Morocco, etc, are secured.

A side point, when you think about the wonder, you really do wonder why the PAF is even giving time to think about new F-16s, especially if it is to pay $80-100mn a unit.

Background on each of Selex ES' subsystems:

BriteCloud - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/britecloud-3

Misysis - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/miysis-dircm-3

Raven ES-05 - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/raven-1

Skyward IRST - http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/skyward-1

@Horus, @Bratva, @MastanKhan, @Zarvan @waz @Khafee @araz @HRK @Blue Marlin ; your thoughts?

good read...........but there is a problem the jf-17 is supposed to be a cheap sanction free jet. this would hinder that philosophy. the britecloud decoy is depensed from the flare shaft and i think it would be a good idea as its able to be fitted on the similarly sized gripens but i dont see the need for such a specific high tech countermeasure installed on the jf17. the skywalk irst is quiet strange of you to bring up. as china is just as capable irst's install on j11 families and the later j10b/c's. the aesa radars however is quiet differant. i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000-e aesa. the raven is for the gripen. the vixen is an export radar. oh and you forgetting the engines to the rd-93 is not going to cut it , an upgrade is required. please dont say the ws-13 as you know as well as i, know that is not going to happen.
so some critical components being procured from europe is a good idea such as the radar but other are not simply worth the hassel or the price. also because the radars are british and italian you wont have much a problem in regards to indian lobbying as they are not strong in neither countries.

 

[Khafee]

All included what kind of per unit price are we looking at, since JF-17 is after all a "cost effective" solution which never was meant to "beat" the Gripen-NG in terms of cutting edge technology. I do like the idea as it makes good sense, however costing is a prime consideration here.

@Quwa

It would have been made possible if the Thunder deal with KSA had materialized. They came seeking a "Block-60" like version of JF-17 with EJ-200 to create commonality with their Typhoon maintenance regime. If KSA got involved in the project or at least invested cash into it on shared profit basis, we would most definitely have seen a JF-17 block with 4++ generation capabilities. The plans and technology do exist but the cash is missing. You can pretty much add anything to this platform given the bills are paid.

View attachment 291097

Well, the thing is the JF-17 can still remain a low cost fighter, and you can have high end fighter called the JF-19, with all the bells and whistles.

Unfortunately, I have to admit, cash is a major issue as well. China does not seem convinced on the low cost model, or it would have happened by now. But given the tech coming in on the JF-19, they might?

 

[Quwa]

good read...........but there is a problem the jf-17 is supposed to be a cheap sanction free jet. this would hinder that philosophy. the britecloud decoy is depensed from the flare shaft and i think it would be a good idea as its able to be fitted on the similarly sized gripens but i dont see the need for such a specific high tech countermeasure installed on the jf17. the skywalk irst is quiet strange of you to bring up. as china is just as capable irst's install on j11 families and the later j10b/c's. the aesa radars however is quiet differant. i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000-e aesa. the raven is for the gripen. the vixen is an export radar. oh and you forgetting the engines to the rd-93 is not going to cut it , an upgrade is required. please dont say the ws-13 as you know as well as i, know that is not going to happen.
so some critical components being procured from europe is a good idea such as the radar but other are not simply worth the hassel or the price. also because the radars are british and italian you wont have much a problem in regards to indian lobbying as they are not strong in neither countries.

To be honest this is going to be Block-III, maybe even later (IV or V) if a new engine and substantially lighter airframe is necessary. It may sound too long-term, but bar a handful of 5th gen fighters, the majority of jets in the world will be what we see today. Even if we see a "high-end" JF-17 come to life after 2025, what will it be fighting against, mostly? Each new generation of fighter has a longer lifespan, and the current stream is going to be here for a while.

 

[RAMPAGE]

All included what kind of per unit price are we looking at, since JF-17 is after all a "cost effective" solution which never was meant to "beat" the Gripen-NG in terms of cutting edge technology. I do like the idea as it makes good sense, however costing is a prime consideration here.

@Quwa

PAF has been very clear in this regard. They have made it clear that they'll keep exploiting the aircraft until it's full potential has been realized. There may be a Block 4, 5 and maybe more.

 

[Kompromat]

Well if PAF does order the extra 100 birds then we will see a Block-4 and 5.

PAF has been very clear in this regard. They have made it clear that they'll keep exploiting the aircraft until it's full potential has been realized. There may be a Block 4, 5 and maybe more.

 

[Khafee]

good read...........but there is a problem the jf-17 is supposed to be a cheap sanction free jet. this would hinder that philosophy. the britecloud decoy is depensed from the flare shaft and i think it would be a good idea as its able to be fitted on the similarly sized gripens but i dont see the need for such a specific high tech countermeasure installed on the jf17. the skywalk irst is quiet strange of you to bring up. as china is just as capable irst's install on j11 families and the later j10b/c's. the aesa radars however is quiet differant. i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000-e aesa. the raven is for the gripen. the vixen is an export radar. oh and you forgetting the engines to the rd-93 is not going to cut it , an upgrade is required. please dont say the ws-13 as you know as well as i, know that is not going to happen.
so some critical components being procured from europe is a good idea such as the radar but other are not simply worth the hassel or the price. also because the radars are british and italian you wont have much a problem in regards to indian lobbying as they are not strong in neither countries.

It can always be insured, via local MRO that Selex's products remain sanction free. It's not that big a deal.

As to the countermeasures, you can never have too little of it.

IRST - From what I know, this could have changed by now, the Su series IRST has a range of +/- 100kms. The Western ones 170km+/- Chinese............?

Raven & Vixen - Vixen was the predessor to the Raven. Unless Gripen has the IP rights to the Raven, and subject to Export policies, it can be exported.

RD-93 - There is already unconfirmed news of a 22k lb thrust engine. Never say never, people from across the border were going blue in the face, saying Russia would not allow it, but then what happened? So lets see if the Russian come up with a better deal.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Well if PAF does order the extra 100 birds then we will see a Block-4 and 5.

They will and they have to.

 

[Quwa]

It can always be insured, via local MRO that Selex's products remain sanction free. It's not that big a deal.

As to the countermeasures, you can never have too little of it.

IRST - From what I know, this could have changed by now, the Su series IRST has a range of +/- 100kms. The Western ones 170km+/- Chinese............?

Raven & Vixen - Vixen was the predessor to the Raven. Unless Gripen has the IP rights to the Raven, and subject to Export policies, it can be exported.

RD-93 - There is already unconfirmed news of a 22k lb thrust engine. Never say never, people from across the border were going blue in the face, saying Russia would not allow it, but then what happened? So lets see if the Russian come up with a better deal.

That's my rationale as well. With a JF-17 equipped with AESA, IRST and BriteCloud-like decoy/ECM, we wouldn't need to worry about a "hi/lo" mix, rather, it'd be an X/Y mix. The "X" would be the general use multi-role fighter fully capable of doing everything we need, and "Y" would be a smaller number of specialist aircraft for specific roles. In the latter I can see the FC-31 emerging, especially in terms of being a strike and maritime patrol platform.