Secularism in the context of Pakistan

[qamar1990]

actually in the 20s

"Atatürk: The Biography of the founder of Modern Turkey, by Andrew Mango; "In a book published in 1928, Grace Ellison quotes [Atatürk], presumably in 1926-27", Grace Ellison Turkey Today (London: Hutchinson, 1928)"

i know what year it was lol, I'm just surprised at the historian for getting the date wrong.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I think there's a lack of understanding in this thread and in the Muslim world as to what secularism is.

Secularism is not a political ideology, its a principle that that involves two basic propositions, the first being the strict separation of state and religious institutions (separation of church and state). The second proposition is that people of different religions (or without religion) are equal before the law.

This doesn't mean that Islamism or Islamists doesn't or won't have a place in society or government. Secularism seeks to defend the absolute freedom of religious and other belief, and protect the right to manifest religious belief insofar as it does not impinge disproportionately on the rights and freedoms of others. Secularism ensures that the right of individuals to freedom of religion is always balanced by the right to be free from religion (in case its used to oppress as so many Islamists/Evangelical Christians seek to do if they gain power).

Finally, secularism is not Atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. Secularism simply provides a framework for a democratic society. Atheists have an obvious interest in supporting secularism, but secularism itself does not seek to challenge the tenets of any particular religion or belief, neither does it seek to impose atheism on anyone.

Thank you.

And

Well stated.

Sad to see many Pakistanis enjoy religious freedom in Western secular societies

and yet in their zeal or perhaps $tupidity

Support anti-secular elements in Pakistan.


But yeah.

secularism does protect the rights of all, including Islamists.

But the reverse is not true.

report what you want to the fib and ill report to the army that faun historian is ttp who needs to be visited by a drone lol.



this thread is a joke its going no where. the OP is a deluded person he has no idea what he talking about.
@Aeronaut plz close this troll fest. the OP himself is a well known troll.

Oh bhai

you are more than welcome to leave this thread and open a new one.

Why are you $hitting in this thread. No one invited you.

Contribute or leave.

Thank you.

 

[Khan_patriot]

personal attacks from American settled Pakistanis.

Wow.

And now you want the thread to be closed.

What a shame.

Yeah. You can't answer it, don't know the history

So kill the messenger

and destroy threads.

Shabash

Very shabash.

Perhaps we should report your views to FBI.

what he said here is true historically speaking, the ML of MAJ, was an open, liberal and relatively open to such a degree that Mullahs declared it a Kafir outfit, the Muslim league won then as it has now (although its not that Muslim now) but it won none the less, and I doubt anyone of us on pdf can report anyone to the FBI on solid ground otherwise most of us would be atleast on the watchlist...

 

[qamar1990]

Thank you.

And

Well stated.

Sad to see many Pakistanis enjoy religious freedom in Western secular societies

and yet in their zeal or perhaps $tupidity

Support anti-secular elements in Pakistan.


But yeah.

secularism does protect the rights of all, including Islamists.

But the reverse is not true.

everybody's rights should be protected. muslims have always protected their minorities. this recent intolerance is something new, something not part of our beliefs.

 

[A.Rafay]

Thank you.

And

Well stated.

Sad to see many Pakistanis enjoy religious freedom in Western secular societies

and yet in their zeal or perhaps $tupidity

Support anti-secular elements in Pakistan.


But yeah.

secularism does protect the rights of all, including Islamists.

But the reverse is not true.

We should try secularism, dump this rotten constitution of Pakistan which is based on inequality and injustice!

 

[qamar1990]

We should try secularism, dump this rotten constitution of Pakistan which is based on inequality and injustice!

go try in india.

 

[Khan_patriot]

Thank you.

And

Well stated.

Sad to see many Pakistanis enjoy religious freedom in Western secular societies

and yet in their zeal or perhaps $tupidity

Support anti-secular elements in Pakistan.


But yeah.

secularism does protect the rights of all, including Islamists.

But the reverse is not true.



Oh bhai

you are more than welcome to leave this thread and open a new one.

Why are you $hitting in this thread. No one invited you.

Contribute or leave.

Thank you.

Sir, actually the reverse is true read up any good book on Islamic rule of land, religious freedom is warranted by a true Islamic state, hell its even warranted in our constitution but its enforcment is Pakistan is a whole new matter, read Sulah Hadabia, it warrants religious freedom, social harmony etc

 

[BATMAN]

Islam too is a belief for individuals and not to be sold to beardo Mullahs.
That is the whole idea of the thread.

Not that i'm very practicing Muslim, but Islam is demonized by the secularist extremists.
You can't sell terrorists or extremists as Islamist, they are declared most un-Islamic in the Quran it-self.
When Quran and Arabic will be made mandatory in schools, all the falsification and confusion will die automatically.
I urge you to expand your knowledge about Islam, before preaching secularism.

BTW, denying Islam is same like denying, Isaiat, judaism, and other people of book and Sikhs too have beard, where as in Pakistan beard is mainly cultural.

 

[Khan_patriot]

We should try secularism, dump this rotten constitution of Pakistan which is based on inequality and injustice!

Here for the sake of discussion refer to Palistanis and our leaders as really unskilled drivers with a car ''the present Islamic constitution'', now the unskilled driver doesnt know how to drive the car, now tell me will changing the car to one named ''secular constitution'' miracously teach the driver how to drive the car better, common sense dictates no, it will not....peace

 

[BATMAN]

go try in india.

You can't speak secular in India!.... i have met thousands of Indians never met a secular one.

 

[FaujHistorian]

what he said here is true historically speaking, the ML of MAJ, was an open, liberal and relatively open to such a degree that Mullahs declared it a Kafir outfit, the Muslim league won :

Well said. Thank you.

..anyone of us on pdf can report anyone to the FBI on solid ground otherwise most of us would be atleast on the watchlist...

Big brother is watching even if someone doesn't report.

I know that quiet a few Pakistani posters from many forums have had a visit by you know who.

peace

 

[qamar1990]

Well said. Thank you.



Big brother is watching even if someone doesn't report.

I know that quiet a few Pakistani posters from many forums have had a visit by you know who.

peace

oh man I'm scared now lmfao lol.
i hope they don't visit me or I'm spilling the beans on faujhistorian.

 

[ssethii]

pointing to reality should not be considered disrespect.

you come here and put one-liner flame baits

That's a big no no.

Be a man and support your arguments instead of hiding behind such one-liners.

Thank you.

that's the kind of disrespecting attitude i am talking about.
i would write you an essay but it won't help you with this kind of attitude.

The people you are calling Islamist are the ones who have dumped all the 'Silsilas'(these act as chain between us and the teachings of Islam 1400 years ago) like you said, calling them 'bidati' and away from the 'silaf'(the early picture of Islam). They(Islamists) questioned these people how can you prove your acts(their forefathers were practicing those 'acts' for ages) from the Quran and the life of our beloved Prophet(S.A.W). The idea of 'Salafism' was good except for one little detail they missed out that were no revelations now to guide them so they started using their 'mighty' brains. Some became extremists within the society and others were too hardliners to be accepted by the society and have now became topic of our debate.

So my point is you can't just reinvent Islam. Islam has universality in it and it's not bound to any specific age or time. The Secularism is a good idea but you see there is a better solution available in market in the shape of Islam why not adopt that.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Here for the sake of discussion refer to Palistanis and our leaders as really unskilled drivers with a car ''the present Islamic constitution'', now the unskilled driver doesnt know how to drive the car, now tell me will changing the car to one named ''secular constitution'' miracously teach the driver how to drive the car better, common sense dictates no, it will not....peace

Taking your example

Constitution is a manual for the car.

If you try to drive a car using a manual from modern day systems, it will work

But

if you use a manual (if there ever was) for driving a donkey cart, on dirt roads of 700 AD
but you want to drive a car on 110 km/hour motorway in the year of 2013.

Obviously the results will be disastrous at best.

And

This is what has happened to our beautiful country. Bunch of moronic Talib-barbarians are driving us straight into ditch.

peace

that's the kind of disrespecting attitude i am talking about.
i would write you an essay but it won't help you with this kind of attitude.

The people you are calling Islamist are the ones who have dumped all the 'Silsilas'(these act as chain between us and the teachings of Islam 1400 years ago) like you said, calling them 'bidati' and away from the 'silaf'(the early picture of Islam). They(Islamists) questioned these people how can you prove your acts(their forefathers were practicing those 'acts' for ages) from the Quran and the life of our beloved Prophet(S.A.W). The idea of 'Salafism' was good except for one little detail they missed out that were no revelations now to guide them so they started using their 'mighty' brains. Some became extremists within the society and others were too hardliners to be accepted by the society and have now became topic of our debate.

So my point is you can't just reinvent Islam. Islam has universality in it and it's not bound to any specific age or time. The Secularism is a good idea but you see there is a better solution available in market in the shape of Islam why not adopt that.

Nice discussion but not relevant to the thread.

Nobody is trying to reinvent Islam.

Please update your understanding about this thread.

Thank you.

You can't speak secular in India!.... i have met thousands of Indians never met a secular one.

he was just being jokerish.

He could have said to follow secularism as implemented in the West.

But he won't

He is not hear for serious discussion, just to pick up fights in the name of Mullahs and Ayatullahs.

 

[Khan_patriot]

Taking your example

Constitution is a manual for the car.

If you try to drive a car using a manual from modern day systems, it will work

But

if you use a manual (if there ever was) for driving a donkey cart, on dirt roads of 700 AD
but you want to drive a car on 110 km/hour motorway in the year of 2013.

Obviously the results will be disastrous at best.

And

This is what has happened to our beautiful country. Bunch of moronic Talib-barbarians are driving us straight into ditch.

peace



Nice discussion but not relevant to the thread.

Nobody is trying to reinvent Islam.

Please update your understanding about this thread.

Thank you.



he was just being jokerish.

He could have said to follow secularism as implemented in the West.

But he won't

He is not hear for serious discussion, just to pick up fights in the name of Mullahs and Ayatullahs.

dude, you should know that the manual you are bashing here was used to drive a car ''The Islamic Caliphate'' in a manner better than ever is possible with the new manual, refer to the rule of Hazrzt Omar RA, he had one of history's largest empires and managed it with such efficency that is not possible even now, (you are free to disagree and give me other examples), even the West bears testimony to this fact, why should we give up what is ours and has been and will be successful just to try a new thing that is proven to be a screw up....