Secular by Necessity

[SkyWolf]

I was called a progressive, libturd, secularist, disloyal, westernized atheist on this forum.

If my fellow Pakistanis could agree on the one, the true universal practice of Islam and a singular interpretation of hadith agreed upon by all -- I would be more than happy to be a part of this utopian Islamic republic. A country governed on entirely Islamic principles and jurisprudence along with a happy and productive citizenry.

This sounds wonderful to me in theory. In practice - we have cut each other's throats for our various interpretations. We have shamelessly bombed each other's mosques. We have politicized Islam and religiosity to our own detriment. Our clergy (per landmark supreme court case) could not even agree on the correct definition of what constitutes a Muslim let alone the finer points and universal application of Islamic jurisprudence.

Whose practice or model of Islam is correct anyway? Turkey, Saudi, Malaysia, Afghan Taliban, Pakistan Taliban, ISIS?

Since our diverse demographics can never come to an agreement - I have taken the secular approach. No sect, sub-sect, cult, extremist, moderate, liberal shall enforce their version of Islam on another Muslim. You see, I wasn't born a secularist - I become one by necessity.

Secularism does not mean the absence of Islam. To me, it means --- Freedom of Religion. I would go a step farther and say it is Protection of Religion. In a secular country, Sunni, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, fill-in-the-blank can go worship as they wish so long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.

This doesn't make me an atheist. It makes me a Muslim who wishes to see a peaceful, happy, prosperous Pakistan where our beautiful religion is practiced by each individual without compulsion at their individual level of comfort.

Pakistan would remain a Muslim country - an important part and continuation of the great Islamic civilizations but it would be focused more on its economy and the welfare of her people instead of dogmatic minutiae.

If that makes me progressive, westernized, and liberal then so be it but I have never been disloyal to my country.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Our clergy (per landmark supreme court case) could not even agree on the correct definition of what constitutes a Muslim

Quran defines Muslim.
3-84 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants [al-Asbāṭ], and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the [other] prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

 

[One_Nation]

I was called a progressive, libturd, secularist, disloyal, westernized atheist on this forum.

If my fellow Pakistanis could agree on the one, the true universal practice of Islam and a singular interpretation of hadith agreed upon by all -- I would be more than happy to be a part of this utopian Islamic republic. A country governed on entirely Islamic principles and jurisprudence along with a happy and productive citizenry.

This sounds wonderful to me in theory. In practice - we have cut each other's throats for our various interpretations. We have shamelessly bombed each other's mosques. We have politicized Islam and religiosity to our own detriment. Our clergy (per landmark supreme court case) could not even agree on the correct definition of what constitutes a Muslim let alone the finer points and universal application of Islamic jurisprudence.

Whose practice or model of Islam is correct anyway? Turkey, Saudi, Malaysia, Afghan Taliban, Pakistan Taliban, ISIS?

Since our diverse demographics can never come to an agreement - I have taken the secular approach. No sect, sub-sect, cult, extremist, moderate, liberal shall enforce their version of Islam on another Muslim. You see, I wasn't born a secularist - I become one by necessity.

Secularism does not mean the absence of Islam. To me, it means --- Freedom of Religion. I would go a step farther and say it is Protection of Religion. In a secular country, Sunni, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, fill-in-the-blank can go worship as they wish so long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.

This doesn't make me an atheist. It makes me a Muslim who wishes to see a peaceful, happy, prosperous Pakistan where our beautiful religion is practiced by each individual without compulsion at their individual level of comfort.

Pakistan would remain a Muslim country - an important part and continuation of the great Islamic civilizations but it would be focused more on its economy and the welfare of her people instead of dogmatic minutiae.

If that makes me progressive, westernized, and liberal then so be it but I have never been disloyal to my country.

There has never been a truly Islamic state in entire history of Islam and we will never see one. What we are taught about Islamic history is full of myths. Muslims can have a state of their own to practice their beliefs but state itself cannot have a religion. Pakistan itself is an example of that.
Pakistanis get this idea from Saudi Arabia and they think its a perfect Islamic country. What these illiterate people fail to see is that country is run by a tribe of gold worshipping womanizers who have little influence of Islam in their daily lives. Most of the people of Saudi Arabia are Muslims but state is hardly Islamic.
Iran is another Islamic drama country where state pretends to be Islamic but vast majority of people have no interest in Islam.

 

[karachidude86]

Dude just study Islam theres no answer it doesn't give and no problem it doesn't solve, don't fight it or innovate or you will be amongst the losers in the end.

 

[Zarvan]

I was called a progressive, libturd, secularist, disloyal, westernized atheist on this forum.

If my fellow Pakistanis could agree on the one, the true universal practice of Islam and a singular interpretation of hadith agreed upon by all -- I would be more than happy to be a part of this utopian Islamic republic. A country governed on entirely Islamic principles and jurisprudence along with a happy and productive citizenry.

This sounds wonderful to me in theory. In practice - we have cut each other's throats for our various interpretations. We have shamelessly bombed each other's mosques. We have politicized Islam and religiosity to our own detriment. Our clergy (per landmark supreme court case) could not even agree on the correct definition of what constitutes a Muslim let alone the finer points and universal application of Islamic jurisprudence.

Whose practice or model of Islam is correct anyway? Turkey, Saudi, Malaysia, Afghan Taliban, Pakistan Taliban, ISIS?

Since our diverse demographics can never come to an agreement - I have taken the secular approach. No sect, sub-sect, cult, extremist, moderate, liberal shall enforce their version of Islam on another Muslim. You see, I wasn't born a secularist - I become one by necessity.

Secularism does not mean the absence of Islam. To me, it means --- Freedom of Religion. I would go a step farther and say it is Protection of Religion. In a secular country, Sunni, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, fill-in-the-blank can go worship as they wish so long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.

This doesn't make me an atheist. It makes me a Muslim who wishes to see a peaceful, happy, prosperous Pakistan where our beautiful religion is practiced by each individual without compulsion at their individual level of comfort.

Pakistan would remain a Muslim country - an important part and continuation of the great Islamic civilizations but it would be focused more on its economy and the welfare of her people instead of dogmatic minutiae.

If that makes me progressive, westernized, and liberal then so be it but I have never been disloyal to my country.

Anyone thinking secularism doesn't mean absence of Islam has never understood Islam in first place. No Sir Islam not a religion, it never was. Please first understand Islam. It's a whole system. PROPHET SAW didn't came just to make people offer Salah do fasting and offer Zakat. He was here to build and establish a whole economic, Government, social, moral system called Islam. Islam is not individual thing. Even Abu Juhal, Yazeed, and Abu Lahab understood it better then our seculars that is why they made all the effort they could to destroy it. But they failed. So Sir you really need to read Islam in detail.

 

[El Sidd]

PDF search for keyword Kashmir and the OP give us interesting results.

 

[SkyWolf]

PDF search for keyword Kashmir and the OP give us interesting results.

Translation:
His ideas are novel and different on another topic. He is a bad person. Hang him!

Anyone thinking secularism doesn't mean absence of Islam has never understood Islam in first place. No Sir Islam not a religion, it never was. Please first understand Islam. It's a whole system. PROPHET SAW didn't came just to make people offer Salah do fasting and offer Zakat. He was here to build and establish a whole economic, Government, social, moral system called Islam. Islam is not individual thing. Even Abu Juhal, Yazeed, and Abu Lahab understood it better then our seculars that is why they made all the effort they could to destroy it. But they failed. So Sir you really need to read Islam in detail.

Fine. I agree. Who is right?

A) sunni
B) shia


Which state has proper islamic governance?

A) saudi
B) iran
C) bangladesh
D) turkey

Who has it right?

A) taliban
B) isis

Who should be judge?

 

[SkyWolf]

Dude just study Islam theres no answer it doesn't give and no problem it doesn't solve, don't fight it or innovate or you will be amongst the losers in the end.

Okay show me where the following is explained.

What are black holes made of?
Is time travel possible?
What should be the fine for a traffic infraction?
how should cryptocurrency be managed?
which islamic sect is right?
is it okay to cut off hand for theft in modern era or is better to rehabilitate first time offenders?

I jest but i hope u get my point.

 

[El Sidd]

His ideas are novel and different on another topic.

It does connect the dots seemingly well. aspiring secular who aims to impose xenophobia in guise of nationalism at the cost of Kashmir.

Kashmiri slogan for freedom irks your most immediate instinct to satisfy most primal needs.

 

[SkyWolf]

It does connect the dots seemingly well. aspiring secular who aims to impose xenophobia in guise of nationalism at the cost of Kashmir.

Kashmiri slogan for freedom irks your most immediate instinct to satisfy most primal needs.

Wow any more labels you would like to add?

Classic example of not arguing the merits of an argument but attacking the person.

Fyi. Nothing would make me happier than freedom for kashmir.

Is it sacrilege to ask at what cost though?

Tell me more about my xenophobia. That one is new.

 

[karachidude86]

Okay show me where the following is explained.

What are black holes made of?
Is time travel possible?
What should be the fine for a traffic infraction?
how should cryptocurrency be managed?
which islamic sect is right?
is it okay to cut off hand for theft in modern era or is better to rehabilitate first time offenders?

I jest but i hope u get my point.

I honest to God never thought i would ever be goaded into a Atheist vs Muslim debate on a Pure Pakistani Military Forum, i came here to read up on JF 17, i am used to having these with Europeans on hidden Piracy Forums but dang.I deign you way way way below them so won't stoop to answer your many questions.

May ALLAH PAK protect and have mercy on Me and all Muslims of my Country and World.Ameen

 

[SkyWolf]

I honest to God never thought i would ever be goaded into a Atheist vs Muslim debate on a Pure Pakistani Military Forum, i came here to read up on JF 17, i am used to having these with Europeans on hidden Piracy Forums but dang.I deign you way way way below them so won't stoop to answer your many questions.

May ALLAH PAK protect and have mercy on Me and all Muslims of my Country and World.Ameen

Ameen.

The real reason you can't answer my question is due to the fact you don't have one. Instead of getting triggered by discussions that challenge your preconceived views, have a rebuttal. Think outside the box. Also - this forum allows multiple types of discussion and I believe I have posted in the appropriate thread.

 

[TNT]

I was called a progressive, libturd, secularist, disloyal, westernized atheist on this forum.

If my fellow Pakistanis could agree on the one, the true universal practice of Islam and a singular interpretation of hadith agreed upon by all -- I would be more than happy to be a part of this utopian Islamic republic. A country governed on entirely Islamic principles and jurisprudence along with a happy and productive citizenry.

This sounds wonderful to me in theory. In practice - we have cut each other's throats for our various interpretations. We have shamelessly bombed each other's mosques. We have politicized Islam and religiosity to our own detriment. Our clergy (per landmark supreme court case) could not even agree on the correct definition of what constitutes a Muslim let alone the finer points and universal application of Islamic jurisprudence.

Whose practice or model of Islam is correct anyway? Turkey, Saudi, Malaysia, Afghan Taliban, Pakistan Taliban, ISIS?

Since our diverse demographics can never come to an agreement - I have taken the secular approach. No sect, sub-sect, cult, extremist, moderate, liberal shall enforce their version of Islam on another Muslim. You see, I wasn't born a secularist - I become one by necessity.

Secularism does not mean the absence of Islam. To me, it means --- Freedom of Religion. I would go a step farther and say it is Protection of Religion. In a secular country, Sunni, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, fill-in-the-blank can go worship as they wish so long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.

This doesn't make me an atheist. It makes me a Muslim who wishes to see a peaceful, happy, prosperous Pakistan where our beautiful religion is practiced by each individual without compulsion at their individual level of comfort.

Pakistan would remain a Muslim country - an important part and continuation of the great Islamic civilizations but it would be focused more on its economy and the welfare of her people instead of dogmatic minutiae.

If that makes me progressive, westernized, and liberal then so be it but I have never been disloyal to my country.

Just because people dont agree on a single interpretation of a clear message, doesn't mean you abandon it. Its like saying there is difference of theories in quantum physics so ill just not believe in it.
Islam is very clear and ask humans to unite on one point, that is there is only one true God. The basic demand of the creator is to recognize Him. Tauheed is the very base of all the Prophets message. Beyond that, there are ways defined to bring u closer, to be better. Its like an exam, u need basic stuff to pass but there are ways (worship, conduct) to achieve top grades.
A state religion should not mean forcing or interpreting religion for its citizens. It means the state should respect basic Islamic boundaries and work for welfare. It also should ensure rights of minorities.

 

[TNT]

Okay show me where the following is explained.

What are black holes made of?
Is time travel possible?
What should be the fine for a traffic infraction?
how should cryptocurrency be managed?
which islamic sect is right?
is it okay to cut off hand for theft in modern era or is better to rehabilitate first time offenders?

I jest but i hope u get my point.

Islam is a way of life and Quran is a book of signs, its not a book of science. It does encourage u to seek and search and think and observe. So you will be a good muslim if u research and understand the universe and nature.
Questions like traffic fines and time travel are similar to what bani israel used to ask. Allah gave u brain and an independent mind and gave u a responsibility. You are allowed to chose ur fines and ur punishments as long as they dont break basics. Islam also allows u to decide on matters with unity, its not Islam fault that we are divided. It asks u to keep away from ribah and gambling but design and decide ur own financial system. There are no sects in Islam, there is one book and its the same all ober the workd and its message is very clear. Its our fault and weakness to be divided into sects.

 

[SkyWolf]

Ameen.

Just because people dont agree on a single interpretation of a clear message, doesn't mean you abandon it. Its like saying there is difference of theories in quantum physics so ill just not believe in it.
Islam is very clear and ask humans to unite on one point, that is there is only one true God. The basic demand of the creator is to recognize Him. Tauheed is the very base of all the Prophets message. Beyond that, there are ways defined to bring u closer, to be better. Its like an exam, u need basic stuff to pass but there are ways (worship, conduct) to achieve top grades.
A state religion should not mean forcing or interpreting religion for its citizens. It means the state should respect basic Islamic boundaries and work for welfare. It also should ensure rights of minorities.

What you have stated is very close to my position. Perhaps, I have done a poor job of communicating. I guess my question is what does it mean to have a state religion in your mind?

The hudud crime of theft is referred to in Quran verse 5:38:

As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

Would you support this law? There would be no one left in Pakistan with two hands.
Would you agree there are better ways in the modern world to address petty theft by an impoverished, first-time, juvenile offender than the prescription above?

Let's say this is the best law --- do you trust for a moment for Pakistani judiciary, law-enforcement to be fair and equitable in dispensing impartial evidence-based justice?

Islam is a way of life and Quran is a book of signs, its not a book of science. It does encourage u to seek and search and think and observe. So you will be a good muslim if u research and understand the universe and nature.
Questions like traffic fines and time travel are similar to what bani israel used to ask. Allah gave u brain and an independent mind and gave u a responsibility. You are allowed to chose ur fines and ur punishments as long as they dont break basics. Islam also allows u to decide on matters with unity, its not Islam fault that we are divided. It asks u to keep away from ribah and gambling but design and decide ur own financial system. There are no sects in Islam, there is one book and its the same all ober the workd and its message is very clear. Its our fault and weakness to be divided into sects.

Very nice answer that I understood. Thanks. I was referring to the other gentleman saying every singly worldly problem is solved in the holy quran itself. This may be correct but it would still be subject to human interpretation.