Sectarianism in Pakistan military: Fact or Fiction

[Hyperion]

Zarvee, let us discuss in peace...... the topic of this thread is exactly where all went wrong in our history............... this is not somewhere where you and your kind can label rest of us infidels for mere discussion........

This thread is sectarian based Sir and also religious discussion which is banned on forum

 

[TankMan]

Not it's not..... it's historical baggage that we're discussing the pros and cons of........ there is a fine line and we are threading the needle perfectly well, bar few, which is expected in any debate!

From the OP:

On the other hand, opponents say that the battle cry of "Ya Ali" itself was sectarian and it was a good idea to change to one that can be used by both sects.

Historical baggage or not, it's a sectarian issue.

 

[SQ8]

We all have issues with Zarvan but you being mod labeling him as takfiri without any logic or proof amounts to same mentality when Taliban call everyone else as kafir.


Now coming to his request of closing the thread YES it should be anything promoting sectarian hatred be it by wahabis or sunnis or shias should be closed down.

We are here as Pakistani NOT Iranian or Saudi.

Above all this is not the gravest issue of Pakistan. They still have this battle cry we still hear that so why coming up with stupid question based threads . Ramazan, eid and Muharram are coming up why we need such smoothing of grounds for sectarian hatred in advance.

Call it what you want. You who on and off bring in sectarian ideals and ethnic hatred telling me that is the usual "pot calling the kettle black".

This is an issue with roots in the harmony of society and more importantly the military culture. Discussed it shall be.

 

[rockstar08]

We have and we would hit back no body can question holocaust in west everything has limits, and if some one insults our PROPHET SAW or Quran they pissed of 1.5 billion people on face of the earth. Quran has called Muslims brothers of each other you want to deny Quran your choice but when you fail to do your job you end up creating space which is filled by groups like AL QAEDA and ISIS. Yes western societies I can also compare massive rapes and other crimes and their attacks on other countries.

dude you are running topic to topic ...
your dreams about Mascaraing the Western people shows that you have no tolerance , If you were Alive in the times on Prophet, he would have called you Fitna , you cant cure hate with hate .. those who are abusing Prophet ,and Quran forget that they are actually abusing their Prophet too , Prophet Muhammad pbuh is not just for you or me , he was sent as mercy for whole Human kind , Quran is not just for you and me , but for whole Human kind ..let the Nature deal with those abusers , i never Go against the Quran , and i dont have to prove this to anyone ..

now , AQ and ISIS are no gap fillers , they are opportunity seekers , they kill for fun , they have nothing to do with Islam ..Islam is much more than " Jihad "

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

We all have issues with Zarvan but you being mod labeling him as takfiri without any logic or proof amounts to same mentality when Taliban call everyone else as kafir.


Now coming to his request of closing the thread YES it should be anything promoting sectarian hatred be it by wahabis or sunnis or shias should be closed down.

We are here as Pakistani NOT Iranian or Saudi.

Above all this is not the gravest issue of Pakistan. They still have this battle cry we still hear that so why coming up with stupid question based threads . Ramazan, eid and Muharram are coming up why we need such smoothing of grounds for sectarian hatred in advance.

Bhen do you know you are defending the same guy who used to defend suicide bombings and terrorist acts by taliban not long ago?


Just saying.

 

[rockstar08]

the point is very clear, this forum will no longer tolerate sectarian ideals.

So i guess the self Improving month for PDF has begun

 

[SQ8]

From the OP:

Historical baggage or not, it's a sectarian issue.

It was turned into one. The cry of "Ya Ali" was not sectarian at all prior to Siraj Ud Daula and his extreme ideals.

 

[TankMan]

That's an interesting point - how would one define sectarian discussions?

I would argue it covers theological discussions based on sectarian differences/interpretations, but a general discussion over the role of religion in Pakistan (state and society) can't, and shouldn't, be avoided.

I agree, it is complex and we either need a proper definition or a relaxation of the rules. Moderators need to discuss this and make an announcement soon. Till then, If they want to leave this thread open, very well.
@Horus @WebMaster @Oscar @Jungibaaz @waz

 

[Kompromat]

Closed.

 

[SQ8]

I agree, it is complex and we either need a proper definition or a relaxation of the rules. Moderators need to discuss this and make an announcement soon. Till then, If they want to leave this thread open, very well.
@Horus @WebMaster @Oscar @Jungibaaz @waz

What is needed is maintaining decorum of the thread by the Think tank team and respected (NOT NECESSARILY SENIOR OR ELITE as that is NO qualification for a good member) members to report any one spreading hatred rather than quashing it or finding the root causes of it to end it. @AgNoStiC MuSliM .. you may not remember this, but we had this discussion once when you were part of the admin team that these ELITE and SENIOR tags need to go. They are misleading on member quality.

 

[Kompromat]

Opening the thread after a quick clean up. Please avoid theological debate or this thread will be shut permanently.

On a personal note. Battle Cries ought to be neutral, the Army jawans still raise Nara-e-Haidari, with which i have no problem if they choose to do so. The purpose of such slogans is to keep the morale high, whatever serves that goal.

People shouldn't confuse chanting for Ali = chanting for God. Ali was a human being, as much as i respect and revere him, he's dead just like other humans before us. If someone invokes Ali during battle it doesn't automatically mean that they are equating him to God but they are remembering and seeking inspiration from his courage and valor in battle for which he was known.

Carry on.

 

[SQ8]

This the difference between a General and Allah. To see Allah, all one needs is to call him for he is nearer to a person than his own jugular. There is no need for any ADC or PS, he is our creator not our master. Do we need someone's permission to see our mother and father? He is more kind to us than our mother and father.

Yet, many people asked the prophet to pray for them.Even today many people ask others to pray for them. Why? After all if they have direct contact why bother?

Why was the prophet asked the question to decide on the fate of Taif? Why did Allah not decide himself?

There is a distinct theological basis for these ideals and has NOTHING to do with godly powers. However, at the same time these ideals have the very same potential to lead to similar issues such as idol worship. Yet, without explicit declaration of the latter or otherwise.. we cannot judge one's intention nor should we at any time try to play god and decide his judgement on them.

These ideals also reflect on such battle cries and their effectiveness. After all, the call for prayer was debated between a drum, a horn and then finally came to the Human Voice.

On the issue of sectarianism in the military. There is less of it found in the officer corps and in the more elite troops. But it lingers around in the lower ranks and specifically in certain non-fighting ranks. A lot of it stems from the various village Mullahs and their associated effects on the populous of cantonments. Along with the on and off nutjob officer/NCO that ends up holding such ideals.

They cannot and do not state these officially but at times are spotted within casual conversations.