Scrap Rafale, Viva Tejas!

[scarcry]

American's are most paranoid people in the world. Using NK as excuse they are effectively locking down SCS, pacific and Indian ocean. Recent guam missile defence shows that.

 

[Dillinger]

I don't know why anyone would believe that in the first place.

We did not launch a military intervention in 47, 65, 71, 2001 (if I got my dates right) or any other Indo-Pakistani conflict.

Why should we?



Sounds perfectly logical to me.

One can hardly gauge what drives them to such a conclusion. Perhaps the knowledge that alone they have tried and failed far too many times. Who knows, to each his own.

 

[arbit]

The Indian crimes against the Assamese are basically crimes against Chinese. The Assamese lay allegiance to China more than India.

You also have Tibetian nonsense all supported by India directly and US indirectly.

You don't have a threat of invasion from India, but you may decide to take action once again due to their shenanigans in Tibet. Hence the threat perception from China.

You have plenty on your hands to worry about than stoking fires between two of the largest neighbours in the region.
The chinese have their own brains, they can do without you cheering for a fist fight between India and China.

 

[ExtraOdinary]

OK back to topic then??

 

[Ajaxpaul]

OK back to topic then??

Rafale and LCA have their own threads and discussed to death....

 

[fast and furious]

The credibility of WikiLeaks has never been questioned. The WikiLeaks documents that reveal Rajiv Gandhi’s role as a commission agent for the Swedish defence major Saab-Scania peddling its Viggen combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force in the mid- to late-Seventies, only confirms the centrality of middlemen in defence deals.

It sets the context for the commission-mongering in the contracts for the German HDW submarine after Indira Gandhi’s return to power, for the Swedish Bofors gun during Rajiv Gandhi’s prime ministership, and in the subsequent high value deals approved by the Congress coalition government since 2005.

The IAF sought an aircraft that could fly low to attack targets deep within Pakistan, and Viggen was entered into the contest which was eventually won by the Anglo-French Jaguar, a deal pushed by defence minister Jagjivan Ram during the Janata Party interregnum for a hefty consideration, as was reported at the time by Surya magazine, edited by Maneka Gandhi. The Jaguar deal proved to be the death knell for the Mk-II version of the first indigenous combat aircraft — the HF-24 Marut, configured by the legendary German designer of Focke-Wulfe warplanes, Dr Kurt Tank, who had been brought in by Jawaharlal Nehru to seed an Indian aviation industry. Its aerodynamics proved excellent for low-level flying and, powered by a Bristol-Siddeley engine, it would have matched Jaguar’s performance. The IAF leadership used the political cover provided by politicians inclined to rake in the moolah to kill the Marut Mk-II, thereby snuffing out the best chance for the Indian aviation industry to take wing.

Forty years on, the country is faced with a similar setting and choice — a Congress coalition government is in power and yet another aircraft deal, for the French Rafale medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), is on the anvil. The Manmohan Singh regime can approve the $22 billion contract facilitated by corrupt practices that will become known soon enough, and benefit France. Or, it can choose an indigenous option that can revive a comatose Indian aircraft industry.

France and Rafale-maker Dassault Avions have offered sufficient provocation. After agreeing with India during the Arms Trade Treaty negotiations that the supplier obligation had to be balanced with buyer responsibility, Dassault has refused to abide by the provisions in the Request for Proposal (RFP) that made it responsible for the quality of the 108 Rafale MMRCA produced under licence by the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) designated in the RFP as prime contractor for the project. If Dassault had doubts it should have clarified this aspect before bidding for the deal, not after winning it, which prima facie suggests bad faith — enough cause to junk it.

A viable alternative is available in the Mark-II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) — its design fits the bill of an MMRCA and it is already undergoing wind tunnel testing. Not only is its 4.5-generation avionics suite common with that of the MK-I, but at its heart lies a ready-to-use AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar developed in collaboration with Israel that is comparable to that on the Rafale, except that the Thales RBE2 AESA radar for the Rafale is to be fully developed with the monies deposited by India!

With the larger air intake and the slight upward curvature of its wingtip, Mk-II Tejas, experts believe, has a better angle of attack (in excess of 28 degrees) with heavier payload than what Rafale can manage. The larger, three-metre longer, version of the Mk-I LCA, able to carry a bigger weapon load (five tons for Mk-II to Rafale’s stated six tons, which will be lesser because the European ambient conditions it is built for don’t obtain here), and has similar range, about 600 kms, and can be inducted into service in less time than the Rafale will take to roll out of HAL lines. Further, with a cranked-arrow delta wing with canards, the Mk-II will be superior to the Rafale in manoeuvrability. The basic Tejas Mk-I is already entering Limited Series Production (LSP) as prelude to full production. It will not be difficult to speedily establish a separate development and production line for Mk-II. In fact, HAL has shown confidence to reject European offers of help to set up the Tejas production infrastructure.
Picking home-grown products will also permit the rationalisation of IAF’s force structure — ridding it of its inventory of aircraft so diverse it has created a logistics nightmare. The Mk-I Tejas, as planned, can fill the air defence role, and the Mk-II variant can more than adequately meet the medium-range interdiction and strike role of the MMRCA. Because Tejas Mk-I and Mk-II are locally built, there will be capacity for surge production to meet any spike in the demand for spares, freeing the IAF from the constraints imposed by foreign suppliers that have always affected its operations.

Local production based on hundreds of SMEs (Small Manufacturing Enterprises) is the backbone of any advanced aircraft industry. It is actually this issue and the unwillingness to fully transfer technology that is at the core of Dassault’s differences with the Indian government. According to those in the know, Dassault’s local partner, Reliance Aerospace, is supposed to have agreed to accept only limited technology transfer — even though total transfer of technology is paid for — and to source critical components and sub-assemblies for the “Indian-made Rafale” from French SMEs. Dassault, by these means, seeks to insert the French SMEs permanently into the Indian manufacturing loop, thus making it vulnerable to French policy whims.

The Congress government has the choice of accommodating Dassault, a position that will be heartily backed by the usually compromised and short-sighted IAF brass, and keep the French aviation industry in the clover or, by scrapping the deal and opting for the Tejas Mk-I for air defence and Mk-II as MMRCA, empower and grow the indigenous aviation industry and Indian SMEs.

With a record of unimaginable corruption, the least that can be expected of the Congress-led government is that, in its last year in office, it will do something good for the country for a change.

Scrap Rafale, Viva Tejas! | idrw.org

Bhai,Aap Toh Tejas se zyaada udd rahey ho.Perhaps, we can scrap FGFA and deploy you.lolzzz.

 

[Anony]

Bhai,Aap Toh Tejas se zyaada udd rahey ho.Perhaps, we can scrap FGFA and deploy you.lolzzz.

Bhaiya mujhe pura biswas hai aapne iske baad wale bahut saare post nahi padha, warna aap ko pata hota ki meri aur Tejas dono ki uddan saili Rafale se kam hai.Bas "Rafale's success at the cost of scrapping Tejas", yeh mujhe kadai manjur nahi.

Aap jitne jaldi conclusion ko pahunchte ho, mujhe lagta hai FGFA scrap karke mujhe nahi balki aapko deploy karna chaiye. Aapke uddne ki virus se hi dusman ke fighter tabah ho jayenge.

 

[fast and furious]

Bhaiya mujhe pura biswas hai aapne iske baad wale bahut saare post nahi padha, warna aap ko pata hota ki meri aur Tejas dono ki uddan saili Rafale se kam hai.Bas "Rafale's success at the cost of scrapping Tejas", yeh mujhe kadai manjur nahi.

Aap jitne jaldi conclusion ko pahunchte ho, mujhe lagta hai FGFA scrap karke mujhe nahi balki aapko deploy karna chaiye. Aapke uddne ki virus se hi dusman ke fighter tabah ho jayenge.

Bhai aap deploy ho ya mai ? National Security is a top priority,that too will be cost effective.I m guessing cost of your deployment will be less then FGFA,mine certainly is.lolzzz.

Peace.

 

[janon]

What this thread has exposed so far is the deep rooted understanding of Pakistanis that they will never be able to fight India again, and that they need china to do it for them. Their past boasts about one muslim being equal to ten hindus, and therefore Pakistan snatching Indian states from India easily have all been drowned in the cold waters of reality. So their current national dream is that in future they will provoke a war with India, and then big daddy China will attack India with all its might (risking all its progress and peace for the sake of an unworthy Pakistan), and thereby allow Pakistan to steal the Indian states they covet. They don't bother to think about the ground reality, that India is far more important to china than Pakistan is, with thousands of kms of shared borders, hundreds of billions of dollars in trade (the annual trade between India and China will be half of Pakistan's GDP by 2018) and common aspirations on the world stage. They think that just because India and CHina fought a limited border war 50+ years ago, Chinese people hate Indians in the same manner that Pakistanis do. Not realizing that hatred for an entity defining their existence is the hallmark of weak, tottering, failing nations, not that of countries like China or India. So when a Chinese member points out that there is no such hatred between the two, they feel terribly insecure, because there goes there dreams of getting India's territories from India, by getting a worthier country to fight their wars. They feel so scared and insecure that they start hurling abuses against one and all. Another common delusion they live in is that each state in India is trying to secede from India, and the people there associate themselves with china or Pakistan or Timbuktu more than India. Pakistanis have these fearsome insurgencies in every province that they find difficult to quell, and they have to believe that India is the same, because they don't want to admit the fact that India is doing better as a nation than they are. So a handful of Maoists living deep in some forest, getting their backsides kicked by police forces equates to their army and air force warring against powerful militias. Everybody who "looks oriental" (whatever that means) owes allegiance to china. (Why not to Korea, btw? They look "oriental" too.)


@Chinese-Dragon: You are wrong to think that @RazPaK has something personal against you. He does not discriminate, he spews racist garbage and religious insults every time his pet delusions come face to face with reality. When he loses an argument, he immediately starts insulting Hinduism, or insulting the other person's mother. That provides us with some laughs, because it is always fun to see somebody come into a thread all macho, and then descending into the depths of desperation.

On topic:

BS article to discuss the topic. Rafales and LCAs can only complement each other, not substitute each other. They are in different categories. Rafales carry 8 tonnes of armament, LCA Mk1 carries 3.5 tonnes. LCA costs less than half a rafale to procure, and the cost of ownership will be several times lower. Rafale procurement WILL NOT kill the LCA Mk2 - the IAF will need hundreds of light aircrafts to do the bulk of its lower end needs, even if we get 200 rafales. Getting rafales AND gripen would have killed the LCA. LCA will serve in large numbers, and so will rafales. There is no question about it.

 

[arp2041]

Difference being Buying Su-30s and Su-27s never stopped China from building its JF-17s, J-10s and J-11s and so on...

China has a lot more money. India can't take the same route.

The other thing is capability too. China is a manufacturing giant. India can either manufacture or procure. It can't do both. As the article explains, India has been doing this dance from the Nehru era and it still hasn't been able to pull it off. Each time they buy a new fancy plane, the local project gets scrapped.

About threat perceptions - This is the perfect time for India to risk it a little since Pakistan's inventory does not match India's inventory and its living in a fools paradise if it thinks it can take on China even with Rafale.

It should ONLY procure PAKFA whenever its done. Su-30MKIs are good enough for now.

Sir, Just don't agree with the Bold Part.

No Indian Armed Forces official ever said that we are building capability to TAKE on China.

Vis-a-Vis China, Indian Policy is only of DETERRENCE, just like Pakistani Policy vis-a-vis India.

There is a Serious Squadron Depletion of IAF over the last decade or so.

The sanctioned strength is of about 40 squads & we are currently down to 32.

IAF would have happily thought about scrapping MMRCA altogether if HAL was in a position to fulfill the IAF's squad demands years ago. But, that is not the case & LCA mk-2 is still 5 years away from service. IAF can't wait forever for LCA mk2, it is already short of 8 squads from the sanctioned strength + It has to retire nearly 250 ac (mig-21/27) by 2017. How can they even think of WAITING for LCA?? Yes, su-30mki is a capable ac but QUALITY is no replacement for QUANTITY.

IAF has to STOP the depleting strength & at the same time it has to increase the nos. as well. This can only be done when they induct su-30mki,LCA, FGFA & Rafale all in parallel & bring the squad nos. to 40+.

Again, This has NOTHING to do with China. It will just act as a DETERRENCE, no one is TAKING on China even after Rafales are inducted in sufficient nos.

 

[MST]

I don't know why anyone would believe that in the first place.

We did not launch a military intervention in 47, 65, 71, 2001 (if I got my dates right) or any other Indo-Pakistani conflict.

Why should we?

It's all about national interests. Look at how Ayub Khan offered to help India fight against China as well, but for some reason you guys turned it down.

CD, please don't take away the only ray of hope that the Pakistanis have in this absolute mess. CHINA.

You are bursting this bubble and some will react (in foul way) or most will ignore you.

The perception that China will save them from everything and everyone has been built over the last many many years. It will be impossible for you to show them the reality.

P.S. You got all the dates right except the last one which is 1999.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

CD, please don't take away the only ray of hope that the Pakistanis have in this absolute mess. CHINA.

You are bursting this bubble and some will react (in foul way) or most will ignore you.

The perception that China will save them from everything and everyone has been built over the last many many years. It will be impossible for you to show them the reality.

P.S. You got all the dates right except the last one which is 1999.

Actually they were already attacking me with racist abuse before I even posted that.

 

[MST]

So in fact they reacted in a foul way even BEFORE I said the post you quoted. Strangely enough.

The issue is that CHINA is so firmly ingrained in Pakistani psyche as a savior of Pakistan that any neutral thing that a Chinese says about India is venom for Pakistanis. For normal Pakistani Chinese are supposed to Hate Hindus/Indians as much as Pakistanis if not more.

Any deviation leads to foul mouthing which is so unfortunate.

 

[arp2041]

OMG, @Chinese-Dragon They so much hate you mate..........

& For what??

Speaking the TRUTH & BURSTING there Dreams.

But still you don't DEVIATE from the TRUTH

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The issue is that CHINA is so firmly ingrained in Pakistani psyche as a savior of Pakistan that any neutral thing that a Chinese says is venom for Pakistanis. For normal Pakistani Chinese are supposed to Hate Hindus/Indians as much as Pakistanis if not more.

Any deviation leads to foul mouthing which is so unfortunate.

The problem with their line of thought, is that it is just not true. Chinese people don't really think about South Asia at all, our main priorities are in the Pacific.

And we sure as Hell aren't going to fight on behalf of foreign nations, just like we never conducted a military intervention in any Indo-Pakistani conflict in the past.

If they want to ignore all basic logic and geopolitical realities (national self-interest) and then start insulting me and hurling racial abuse at me when they crush their own delusions, what can I say.