SC ponders over whether Pakistan can be declared a secular state

[Jackdaws]

We will never be secular Pakistan always will be Islamic Pakistan

As I said, it should not matter. It is your country after all.

 

[Max Pain]

This is the Pakistan i wish/live to see. Hope I can experience it in my life time.

if you notice closely we are gradually going towards that phase,
the very news that in Supreme Court such a discussion is possible should be a pretty sight.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

I question the motives of any Gorvernment OFFICIAL who wants to bring in out right secularism. I believe they want to break-up the country! We've seen the maps in Time magazine; Balkanisation of Pakistan. Don't be too complacent it can't happen. It is happening all over the Muslim World!

1). Do people even know what secularism will mean? Open bars, night clubs, change of female dress (if the parents challenge their daughter they can be prosecuted), alcohol, etc, etc

2). The MUSLIMS in the army will go AWOL like the Saudis are doing now! Why? We believe in Hell and Heaven and MAJORITY of soldiers, no matter how much you pay them, will not put their lives on the line if the cause is NOT just in the site of Allah!

Before anyone says about Saudis are cowards, etc! They are NOT! Why does one group of Saudis who fight bravely for ''ALLAH'' (Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Syria, Bosnia, Somalia, Dagestan, etc, etc) and the other group goes AWOL for House of Al-Saud? SHAHADAH and the other is HELL!

3). Bring in Secularism, Pakistan will fall apart. We are a nation united under Islam.

4). Most people don't even know about Sharia and comment about ALLAH's Law. Under Sharia, CHRISTIANS, JEWS, are protected and their places of worship!

5). How can you lot even know what is Sharia when all you see is Islamically uneducated Mulavis 'ALLOWED' to speak in public so he can have his 15 minutes of fame and fund raising!

6). Like a doctor, a MUFTI is well learned and spends at least 10 years learning all the sciences of Islam. I bet you don't know any? They are the quite ones!

7). Implement SHARIA completely, Pakistan will become THE ISLAMIC STATE and a superpower.

Islamic state was around for 1,000+ years. The corruption that is endemic now, theft, fraud will almost disappear.

Islam never took hold in this country. The terrrorism in the country only started in 2001. What terrorism did we have pre-2001??? So stop blaming Islam for Political failures!

 

[Viny]

Islamic state was around for 1,000+ years. The corruption that is endemic now, theft, fraud will almost disappear.

Islam never took hold in this country. The terrrorism in the country only started in 2001. What terrorism did we have pre-2001??? So stop blaming Islam for Political failures!

Aaj ke liye jyada hogay bhaijaan ...kuch next installment ke liye bhi rakho

Few terrorist incidents before 2001

2000

November 23: Anwar Ali Akhunzada, the central general secretary of TJP in Peshawar, is assassinated by the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ).

September 19: Twelve persons are killed in a bomb explosion in Islamabad

July 17: Ten persons are killed in Hyderabad train blast.

March 28: Seven persons are killed and 16 others injured in a bomb blast at a crowded market in the frontier town of Torkham near Afghanistan.

February 5: Eight persons are killed and 40 others injured in a bomb explosion in a train at Hyderabad.

January 17: Eight persons are killed and 31 others injured in a bomb explosion at a bus stop in Karachi.


1996
November 19: A suicide bomber drives a vehicle into the Egyptian Embassy compound in Islamabad, killing at least 16 and injuring 60 persons.

September 23: Four gunmen open indiscriminate fire at a Fajr congregation at Al Khair mosque in Multan, killing 23 worshipers and wounding 50 others.

January 18: Sipah-e-Sahaba Chief Maulana Ziaur Rehman Farooqi is killed along with 18 other persons in a bomb blast in the Lahore Sessions Court.

March 8: Two unidentified gunmen kill two U.S. diplomats and injured a third in Karachi.

These are just a few..

Both secularism and religion based states / societies have pro's and con's.
What worked in history would work in current and future world is not necessary. Societies, cultures and human beings that dont evolve with time perish as time waits for none.

Stagnant water has more dirt and is less usable compared for flowing stream

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Aaj ke liye jyada hogay bhaijaan ...kuch next installment ke liye bhi rakho

Few terrorist incidents before 2001

2000

November 23: Anwar Ali Akhunzada, the central general secretary of TJP in Peshawar, is assassinated by the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ).

September 19: Twelve persons are killed in a bomb explosion in Islamabad

July 17: Ten persons are killed in Hyderabad train blast.

March 28: Seven persons are killed and 16 others injured in a bomb blast at a crowded market in the frontier town of Torkham near Afghanistan.

February 5: Eight persons are killed and 40 others injured in a bomb explosion in a train at Hyderabad.

January 17: Eight persons are killed and 31 others injured in a bomb explosion at a bus stop in Karachi.


1996
November 19: A suicide bomber drives a vehicle into the Egyptian Embassy compound in Islamabad, killing at least 16 and injuring 60 persons.

September 23: Four gunmen open indiscriminate fire at a Fajr congregation at Al Khair mosque in Multan, killing 23 worshipers and wounding 50 others.

January 18: Sipah-e-Sahaba Chief Maulana Ziaur Rehman Farooqi is killed along with 18 other persons in a bomb blast in the Lahore Sessions Court.

March 8: Two unidentified gunmen kill two U.S. diplomats and injured a third in Karachi.

These are just a few..

Both secularism and religion based states / societies have pro's and con's.
What worked in history would work in current and future world is not necessary. Societies, cultures and human beings that dont evolve with time perish as time waits for none.

Stagnant water has more dirt and is less usable compared for flowing stream

I can go through each one of those incidences and tell you what it was related to. Our State was NEVER attacked! These outside players used our soil to take revenge for example on the Egyption Embassy. The

Aaj ke liye jyada hogay bhaijaan ...kuch next installment ke liye bhi rakho

Few terrorist incidents before 2001

2000

November 23: Anwar Ali Akhunzada, the central general secretary of TJP in Peshawar, is assassinated by the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ).

September 19: Twelve persons are killed in a bomb explosion in Islamabad

July 17: Ten persons are killed in Hyderabad train blast.

March 28: Seven persons are killed and 16 others injured in a bomb blast at a crowded market in the frontier town of Torkham near Afghanistan.

February 5: Eight persons are killed and 40 others injured in a bomb explosion in a train at Hyderabad.

January 17: Eight persons are killed and 31 others injured in a bomb explosion at a bus stop in Karachi.


1996
November 19: A suicide bomber drives a vehicle into the Egyptian Embassy compound in Islamabad, killing at least 16 and injuring 60 persons.

September 23: Four gunmen open indiscriminate fire at a Fajr congregation at Al Khair mosque in Multan, killing 23 worshipers and wounding 50 others.

January 18: Sipah-e-Sahaba Chief Maulana Ziaur Rehman Farooqi is killed along with 18 other persons in a bomb blast in the Lahore Sessions Court.

March 8: Two unidentified gunmen kill two U.S. diplomats and injured a third in Karachi.

These are just a few..

Both secularism and religion based states / societies have pro's and con's.
What worked in history would work in current and future world is not necessary. Societies, cultures and human beings that dont evolve with time perish as time waits for none.

Stagnant water has more dirt and is less usable compared for flowing stream

Secularism is a selfish way of life. It's very NATURE is to challenge your values, your culture, your way of life! It has caused more Wars by pushing it's ideas and taking resources than religious based societies.

As you're an Indian, you talk about stagnant water, etc....you lot have abandoned who you are! I have much respect for Indian women who wear saris than some western imported trash. I don't want our Pakistan to go down that root where we have such an inferiority complex that we abandon our culture. I am always harping on about A.K being a proud Muslim, conservative part of Pakistan. You will rarely find people wearing Western clothes! Does that make us ''backward, uneducated''? Or does it show, we are proud Muslims of A.K, Pakistan!

I can go through each one of those incidences and tell you what it was related to. Our State was NEVER attacked! These outside players used our soil to take revenge, for example on the Egyption Embassy. The others were sectarian related and spill-overs from the first Afghan War.

I suggest you read Ends of the Earth, Robert D.Kaplan and speaks of India eventually falling apart. You can continue to deploy large forces to cement over the cracks, but for how long can you 'forcefully' keep independence aspirations at bay?

 

[nForce]

I can go through each one of those incidences and tell you what it was related to. Our State was NEVER attacked! These outside players used our soil to take revenge for example on the Egyption Embassy. The


Secularism is a selfish way of life. It's very NATURE is to challenge your values, your culture, your way of life! It has caused more Wars by pushing it's ideas and taking resources than religious based societies.

As you're an Indian, you talk about stagnant water, etc....you lot have abandoned who you are! I have much respect for Indian women who wear saris than some western imported trash. I don't want our Pakistan to go down that root where we have such an inferiority complex that we abandon our culture. I am always harping on about A.K being a proud Muslim, conservative part of Pakistan. You will rarely find people wearing Western clothes! Does that make us ''backward, uneducated''? Or does it show, we are proud Muslims of A.K, Pakistan!

I can go through each one of those incidences and tell you what it was related to. Our State was NEVER attacked! These outside players used our soil to take revenge, for example on the Egyption Embassy. The others were sectarian related and spill-overs from the first Afghan War.

I suggest you read Ends of the Earth, Robert D.Kaplan and speaks of India eventually falling apart. You can continue to deploy large forces to cement over the cracks, but for how long can you 'forcefully' keep independence aspirations at bay?

One should be able to identify what is reality and what is delusion.
Talking about keeping aspirations for independence at bay, you are talking about Kashmir right ?

Well, if there was any reality in it, it would have happened long time back, 68 years is enough time for that.
Take a look at a real example, that of East Pakistan. It took only about an year for the people to rise up against West-Pakistan and only a few weeks of active war with India. That's how it happens if it is real.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

One should be able to identify what is reality and what is delusion.
Talking about keeping aspirations for independence at bay, you are talking about Kashmir right ?

Well, if there was any reality in it, it would have happened long time back, 68 years is enough time for that.
Take a look at a real example, that of East Pakistan. It took only about an year for the people to rise up against West-Pakistan and only a few weeks of active war with India. That's how it happens if it is real.

Proof in the pudding is giving people the opportunity to freely express their wishes, as you claim to be the largest democray in the World, llets see if IOKashmiris want independence or not on the ballot box? Everytime, the poor IOKashmiris open their mouth or express their wishes by flying the Pakistani flag, they are arrested and probably killed. These are even against SECULAR principles as you lot ''claim'' on paper to be a secular country. Raping and Murdering is a trade mark of a tyrant nation. Why do you lot always lie? Deploying 500,000+ troops and claiming IOKashmiris don't want independence at the barrel of a gun. Are you for real! My brothers and sisters have endured alot of crimes against humanity at the hands of the savages; Rapes 7000+, Murders, Destruction of property, Arrests, etc, etc.

I don't need to take a long look at E.Pakistan I am taking a REAL LONG LOOK as a KASHMIRI in AZAD-KASHMIR, PAKISTAN. The reason why India does not want to hold elections in IOK (with foriegn observers) they know 100% they'll lose Kashmir! Now you've even stopped talking to Pakistan about A.K should hold elections as well. WHY? You've realised from your terrorist RAW, we'll choose to stay with Pakistan 100%.

Here in in Azad Kashmir, we have bumper stickers like 'Pak forj ap ko salam'. We sit with them like brothers and respect them. Unlike your lot who are cursed daily!

 

[Neutron]

The ideology of Pakistan stems from the instinct of the Muslim community of South Asia to maintain their individuality by resisting all attempts by the Hindu society to absorb it. Muslims of South Asia believe that Islam and Hinduism are not only two religions, but also two social orders that have given birth to two distinct cultures with no similarities. A deep study of the history of this land proves that the differences between Hindus and Muslims were not confined to the struggle for political supremacy, but were also manifested in the clash of two social orders. Despite living together for more than a thousand years, they continued to develop different cultures and traditions. Their eating habits, music, architecture and script, are all poles apart. Even the language they speak and the dresses they wear are entirely different. Sir Syed Ahmad KhanThe ideology of Pakistan took shape through an evolutionary process. Historical experience provided the base; with Sir Syed Ahmad Khan began the period of Muslim self-awakening; Allama Iqbal provided the philosophical explanation; Quaid-i-Azam translated it into a political reality; and the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, by passing Objectives Resolution in March 1949, gave it legal sanction. It was due to the realization of Muslims of South Asia that they are different from the Hindus that they demanded separate electorates. When they realized that their future in a 'Democratic India' dominated by Hindu majority was not safe; they put forward their demand for a separate state.The Muslims of South Asia believe that they are a nation in the modern sense of the word. The basis of their nationhood is neither territorial, racial, linguistic nor ethnic; rather they are a nation because they belong to the same faith, Islam. On this basis they consider it their fundamental right to be entitled to self-determination. They demanded that areas where they were in majority should be constituted into a sovereign state, wherein they would be enabled to order their lives in individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings of Holy Quran and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (S. A. W.). They further want their state to strengthen the bonds of unity among Muslim countries. The flag of PakistanAs early as in the beginning of the 11th century, Al-Biruni observed that Hindus differed from the Muslims in all matters and habits. He further elaborated his argument by writing that the Hindus considered Muslims "Mlachha", or impure. And they forbid having any connection with them, be it intermarriage or any other bond of relationship. They even avoid sitting, eating and drinking with them, because they feel "polluted". The speech made by Quaid-i-Azam at Minto Park, Lahore on March 22, 1940 was very similar to Al-Biruni's thesis in theme and tone. In this speech, he stated that Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, with different social customs and literature. They neither intermarry, nor eat together, and indeed belong to two different civilizations whose very foundations are based on conflicting ideas and concepts. Their outlook on life and of life is different. He emphasized that in spite of the passage of about 1,000 years the relations between the Hindus and Muslims could not attain the level of cordiality. The only difference between the writing of Al-Biruni and the speech of Quaid-i-Azam was that Al-Biruni made calculated predictions, while Quaid-i-Azam had history behind him to support his argument.

 

[nForce]

Proof in the pudding is giving people the opportunity to express their wishes as you claim to be the largest democray in the World and lets see if they want it or not on the ballot box? Everytime, the poor IOKashmiris open their mouth or express their wishes by flying the Pakistani flag, they are arrested and probably killed. Raping and Murdering is a trade mark of a tyrant nation. Why do you lot always can never behonest; deploying 500,000+ troops and claiming IOKashmiris don't want independence at the barrel of a gun. Are you for real! My brothers and sisters have endured alot of crimes against humanity at the hands of the savages; Rapes 7000+, Murders, Destruction of property, Arrests, etc, etc.

Probably, you did not know, but it's India who reached out to UN for a peaceful resolution. According to UN Resolution, Pakistan should vacate the forcibly occupied lands and hand it over back to India, so that India can conduct a plebiscite. That was over 60 years ago and it never happened. Why ?
and don't whine banging your head in the wall talking about rape, murder arrest etc etc. The numbers that you quote gets surpassed every a few years in Pakistan. In side of the border, we have a democratic rule of law, else there would have been nothing called Hurriyat.

I don't need to take a long look at E.Pakistan I am taking a REAL LONG LOOK as a KASHMIRI in AZAD-KASHMIR, PAKISTAN. The reason why India does not want to hold elections in IOK (with foriegn observers) they know 100% they'll lose Kashmir! Now you've even stopped talking to Pakistan about A.K should hold elections as well. WHY? You've realised from your terrorist RAW, we'll choose to stay with Pakistan 100%.

Take a selective look at whatever you like. We hold elections regularly in Kashmir, with more that 60% turnout in the latest one.

Here in in Azad Kashmir, we have bumper stickers like 'Pak forj ap ko salam'. We sit with them like brothers and respect them. Unlike your lot who are cursed daily!

Did you know in both 1965 and 1999, during Kargil incursion, the Indian army was informed about the presence of infiltrators by the local shepherds only ?

See, you want to hate, fine go ahead, I couldn't give a damn. But do it for the right reasons and get the right information. Don't just hate blindly because somebody taught you to do so, use your own logic and understanding.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Probably, you did not know, but it's India who reached out to UN for a peaceful resolution. According to UN Resolution, Pakistan should vacate the forcibly occupied lands and hand it over back to India, so that India can conduct a plebiscite. That was over 60 years ago and it never happened. Why ?
and don't whine banging your head in the wall talking about rape, murder arrest etc etc. The numbers that you quote gets surpassed every a few years in Pakistan. In side of the border, we have a democratic rule of law, else there would have been nothing called Hurriyat.


Take a selective look at whatever you like. We hold elections regularly in Kashmir, with more that 60% turnout in the latest one.


Did you know in both 1965 and 1999, during Kargil incursion, the Indian army was informed about the presence of infiltrators by the local shepherds only ?

See, you want to hate, fine go ahead, I couldn't give a damn. But do it for the right reasons and get the right information. Don't just hate blindly because somebody taught you to do so, use your own logic and understanding.

As an Azad Kashmiri, why would we allow ourselves to be handed over to the same savages who are attacking our women in IOK? Is there any logic in that? Let free and fair elections happen and the will of the people be determined!

The UN has a lot to answer for; their reports say there is wide spread human rights abuses carried out by Indian Soldiers in Kashmir; HRW has also documented, the US as well. I have posted links in past threads.

You really are an IMMORAL man! Rape as an instrument of war is illegal under International Law. With views like yours and then you think we want our Army to abandon us and handed over to the dogs?

If you're talking about rape as per country; India is known as the rape capital of the World! Orissa (Christian Churches burned down, villages destroyed, women raped), Nunn; gang raped, Gujrat; Muslim women were gang raped in the streets and on roof-tops, women raped in buses, streets, hostels, etc, etc...

As far as your democratic rule of law is concerned, let the people decide if they want to be with IOK or free? Why won't you have those elections? Answer the question!

We are talking about Kashmir, NOT E. Pakistan.

Thank you! I've always said Indians are an over blown threat. Relying on goat herders and what not speaks volumes about your intelligence capability. Our problem is leadership, not capability!

I don't operate on hate! Indians actions speak louder than words!

 

[rockstar08]

Quiad-e-Azam will come out from his grave , and beat up Pakistani people personally , the ideology he Fought for is to have separate land for Muslims where they can live peacefully and follow their religion with freedom ..
unfortunately we will remain in such condition , because " Allah un Qoumo ki Halat nai badalta , jin ko apni halat badalne ka shock na ho "

 

[nForce]

As an Azad Kashmiri, why would we allow ourselves to be handed over to the same savages who are attacking our women in IOK? Is there any logic in that? Let free and fair elections happen and the will of the people be determined!

The UN has a lot to answer for; their reports say there is wide spread human rights abuses carried out by Indian Soldiers in Kashmir; HRW has also documented, the US as well. I have posted links in past threads.

You really are an IMMORAL man! Rape as an instrument of war is illegal under International Law. With views like yours and then you think we want our Army to abandon us and handed over to the dogs?

If you're talking about rape as per country; India is known as the rape capital of the World! Orissa (Christian Churches burned down, villages destroyed, women raped), Nunn; gang raped, Gujrat; Muslim women were gang raped in the streets and on roof-tops, women raped in buses, streets, hostels, etc, etc...

As far as your democratic rule of law is concerned, let the people decide if they want to be with IOK or free? Why won't you have those elections? Answer the question!

We are talking about Kashmir, NOT E. Pakistan.

Thank you! I've always said Indians are an over blown threat. Relying on goat herders and what not speaks volumes about your intelligence capability. Our problem is leadership, not capability!

I don't operate on hate! Indians actions speak louder than words!

haha..You sound like you are almost frothing at mouth.

And rape as an instrument of war ? The biggest example of that you will find committed by your Pakistani army, when they raped thousands of Bengali girls in East Pakistan. Their numbers were so much that newly formed Bangladesh had a separate name for them, "Birangona" or the brave-hearts. It's all well documented. You can also refer to the Hamoodur Rahman commission report.

Indian army on the other hand is very much professional and any form of misconduct is met with swift action.

I have already told you why plebiscite cannot be held. You need to read more closely.
According to the clauses of the UN resolution you are referring to, Pakistan has to vacate the part of Kashmir under its control and hand it over to India.Then India will conduct a plebiscite. This part of the bargain Pakistan did not fulfill and over the year, the decision taken at that point of time lost its value, which is evident in your demeanor.

That's why plebiscite could not be held and cannot be done now. Try going through the UN resolution. If you can't find it, let me know, I will find it for you.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

haha..You sound like you are almost frothing at mouth.

And rape as an instrument of war ? The biggest example of that you will find committed by your Pakistani army, when they raped thousands of Bengali girls in East Pakistan. Their numbers were so much that newly formed Bangladesh had a separate name for them, "Birangona" or the brave-hearts. It's all well documented. You can also refer to the Hamoodur Rahman commission report.

Indian army on the other hand is very much professional and any form of misconduct is met with swift action.

I have already told you why plebiscite cannot be held. You need to read more closely.
According to the clauses of the UN resolution you are referring to, Pakistan has to vacate the part of Kashmir under its control and hand it over to India.Then India will conduct a plebiscite. This part of the bargain Pakistan did not fulfill and over the year, the decision taken at that point of time lost its value, which is evident in your demeanor.

That's why plebiscite could not be held and cannot be done now. Try going through the UN resolution. If you can't find it, let me know, I will find it for you.

Typical avoding the question about giving the IOKashmiris the right to determine their fate on the ballot box!

We are talking about Kashmir, so stop trying to conflate the issues. Benagalis are my brothers in Islam and I don't need some Indian trying to 'point score' and shows total lack of respect for what may or may not have happened! These matters are between two Muslim countries!

Check you own record as per UN report, HRW of wide-spead rape and muder in IOK!

You are finding it hard to swallow that we Kashmiris FREELY want to be with PAKISTAN! That can't be said about the IOK side! Otherwise you lot would be running to hold elections to make a point! Indians are such insincere people!

Don't waste me time!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Kashmiris FREELY want to be with PAKISTAN

1. Hypothetical question. If Pakistan tomorrow became a secular state like Bangladesh would A.K still 'freely' want to be with Pakistan if a referandum was held next week?

2. What percentage of A.K people have emigrated and are presently resident in the secular West. I don't know the numbers but from the amount I have seen in UK I would say it is significant considering the small size of A.K.

3. Al those who emigrated did so electively. Would you say in principle that they are are wrong in continuing to live in the secular West since they are giving supremacy to their worldy needs as opposed to their religious security and welfare?

4. If you think secularism is inimical to Islamic way of life do you feel it is wrong for Muslim's living in A.K who plan to migrate to the secular west? If so would you support a ban on such migration?

 

[Menace2Society]

We will never be secular Pakistan always will be Islamic Pakistan

In your own home you can play Amir ul Momineen all you want and be madina sani with perfect wahabi clothing attire.

Lets others decide how they want their society to look. I am pretty sure now there are 50 million moderates in the country and growing. Goodbye mullahstan.