Saudisation of Pakisan

[Naya Pakistan]

Lala, once again, I am all for FREE WILL, freedom to express ones religion, any religion. Freedom to do whatever one wants within the confines of the law.

1. Someone want's to wear hijab? Wear it out of free will. However, not due to social pressure or any stigma, and hijab weares should have no right to sanction psychologically other who don't wear it.

2. Same goes for the beard.

Lala, you are one very bright dude, you know EXACTLY what I am saying. It will take me days upon days to preach both of those two points to others.

Excellent, exactly my sentiments. You should be free to practice as you wish and this goes for all the religious minorities and other sects. Religious freedom for all as it should be.

 

[Hyperion]

Well, then take my word for it. I have spent a lifetime reading about things that plague us today. Islam doesn't preach any of that hatred.

Dude, read it all. Read everything. Read The Quran, The Torah, The Bible, read whatever you can get your hands on. And always read relative history. Without historical context, nothing will ever make sense.

Understanding the historical context would be a bonus, but my first aim is to simply understand what the Quran, namaaz and other rituals' texts are actually saying.

 

[muse]

Look at what it has boiled down to -- exactly from where it started - Islam - what is Islam, true , Islam, Text in Context, Faith, certitude, etc etc

Which means what? That our problem is Islam?? Oh Goodness, no, that's a can of worms, do we really want to go there? -- Oh, it not Islam, it's the understanding of Islam - Khush?

Any way you look at it, you start with and end up with islam.

 

[Kompromat]

Look at what it has boiled down to -- exactly from where it started - Islam - what is Islam, true , Islam, Text in Context, Faith, certitude, etc etc

Which means what? That our problem is Islam?? Oh Goodness, no, that's a can of worms, do we really want to go there? -- Oh, it not Islam, it's the understanding of Islam - Khush?

Any way you look at it, you start with and end up with islam.

Throw away your solution.

 

[Hyperion]

LOL.. mate, the problem is we are way past the solution you are proposing. I do agree with you that where the problem lies, however, this isn't the 90's anymore. The collateral damage will be WAY beyond anyones comprehension.

Look at what it has boiled down to -- exactly from where it started - Islam - what is Islam, true , Islam, Text in Context, Faith, certitude, etc etc

Which means what? That our problem is Islam?? Oh Goodness, no, that's a can of worms, do we really want to go there? -- Oh, it not Islam, it's the understanding of Islam - Khush?

Any way you look at it, you start with and end up with islam.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Excellent, exactly my sentiments. You should be free to practice as you wish and this goes for all the religious minorities and other sects. Religious freedom for all as it should be.

Religion is something between Man and his Maker. Why introduce any other (Third) parties into this?
Which includes Priests, Mullas, Governments or anybody else.
If I have to talk to (or deal with) my wife or Mother or Father or Daughter or anybody very close (or very important) to me; do I need to employ any middlemen or Brokers!

 

[Hyperion]

Dude, that's not what he implied. Stop trolling him..

Religion is something between Man and his Maker. Why introduce any other (Third) parties into this?
Which includes Priests, Mullas, Governments or anybody else.
If I have to talk to (or deal with) my wife or Mother or Father or Daughter or anybody very close (or very important) to me; do I need to employ any middlemen or Brokers!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Well, then take my word for it. I have spent a lifetime reading about things that plague us today. Islam doesn't preach any of that hatred.

Dude, read it all. Read everything. Read The Quran, The Torah, The Bible, read whatever you can get your hands on. And always read relative history. Without historical context, nothing will ever make sense.

@Hyperion; that underlined part is the crux of the matter. Everything is relevant in a certain context. Just as everything has evolved (and needs to evolve). Religion consists of two parts: PRINCIPLES and PRACTICES.
PRINCIPLES are eternal and remain unchanging.
PRACTICES are evolving, just as Society and Mankind have evolved over millenia.

 

[Armstrong]

Meray dost, don't you see that all of the mentioned points by our friend are interlinked? You have such a wonderful vocabulary, yet lack the wisdom to comprehend the intricacies of cause and effect.

No I disagree, all of our aforementioned problems have one thing & one thing alone in common - Governance; or rather its lack thereof ! We've seen such barbarism manifest itself in a plethora of different molds & not religion alone; in Interior Sindh or in Rural Punjab some of the most heinous crimes known to man have been committed & will continue to be committed all because of feudalism & a seriously messed up notion of cultural traditions. Similarly the rampant corruption, nepotism & the grave failure of Institutions because of that has led to so much ills in our society that one would be hard pressed to blame any one religious sect or disposition for them. In that same vacuum of an absence of Governance, of derelict Institutions & grave Injustices all of this mess is bound to happen & is indeed happening ! Whether it be the Baluch Separatists who kill on the basis of ethnicity, the Sindhi Nationalist parties who commit arson, targeting State Infrastructure, on the basis of a historical discourse, the SSM & the Tehrek-i-Jafria or the SSP & the LeJ on the basis of Religion or the TTP on the basis of what they perceived to be is our betrayal & our mercenary ways - All of them are symptoms of a greater malaise - A chronic lack of Governance, Accountability & Trust !

Deal with them & everything else will fall in line ! Does that remotely imply that I'm suggesting that there aren't religion motivated nut jobs in our society ? No....I've met my fair share of them & I've been called a Murtad about thrice now; but they are symptoms not the causation itself ! The causation is, always have been & always will be - Governance & Accountability !

Take care of the two & everything else will begin take caring of itself !

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Dude, that's not what he implied. Stop trolling him..

No dude; my intention was not to troll him. He does not deserve to be mistreated in any way. I just expanded from one of his points with my own views.

 

[Hyperion]

Yara, you write such lengthy posts, always expanding upon the obvious. Is this some sort of "Accountability" tactic you are practicing on me? I give up.

No I disagree, all of our aforementioned problems have one thing & one thing alone in common - Governance; or rather its lack thereof ! We've seen such barbarism manifest itself in a plethora of different molds & not religion alone; in Interior Sindh or in Rural Punjab some of the most heinous crimes known to man have been committed & will continue to be committed all because of feudalism & a seriously messed up notion of cultural traditions. Similarly the rampant corruption, nepotism & the grave failure of Institutions because of that has led to so much ills in our society that one would be hard pressed to blame any one religious sect or disposition for them. In that same vacuum of an absence of Governance, of derelict Institutions & grave Injustices all of this mess is bound to happen & is indeed happening ! Whether it be the Baluch Separatists who kill on the basis of ethnicity, the Sindhi Nationalist parties who commit arson, targeting State Infrastructure, on the basis of a historical discourse, the SSM & the Tehrek-i-Jafria or the SSP & the LeJ on the basis of Religion or the TTP on the basis of what they perceived to be is our betrayal & our mercenary ways - All of them are symptoms of a greater malaise - A chronic lack of Governance, Accountability & Trust !

Deal with them & everything else will fall in line ! Does that remotely imply that I'm suggesting that there aren't religion motivated nut jobs in our society ? No....I've met my fair share of them & I've been called a Murtad about thrice now; but they are symptoms not the causation itself ! The causation is, always have been & always will be - Governance & Accountability !

Take care of the two & everything else will begin take caring of itself !

 

[SQ8]

@Developereo @muse, Gentlemen, we can all agree with each other. My problem is neither one of you. Both of you make sense theoretically at least. I want to see other radicals on this forum to come out and comment here. Where are they all hiding?

Trying to find incoherent verses and hadiath so they can put up a religious face to their argument.

Should not be so difficult though.. after all, when you dont understand the material.. its easier to make a hodgepodge out of it and present it to the world.

Well, then take my word for it. I have spent a lifetime reading about things that plague us today. Islam doesn't preach any of that hatred.

Dude, read it all. Read everything. Read The Quran, The Torah, The Bible, read whatever you can get your hands on. And always read relative history. Without historical context, nothing will ever make sense.

Could not agree more..
And it is due to this misunderstanding of historical context that we have these two sides being discussed here(implicitly and explicitly); One that has Islam involved in things it literally has nothing to do with and/or has never touched in such depth.. and the other side that cant stand the Idea of Islam.. no matter if it makes even the slightest sense or not.

 

[muse]

No I disagree, all of our aforementioned problems have one thing & one thing alone in common - Governance; or rather its lack thereof !!

Ok, fair enough, so please explain why your posts have been about Islam??

look friends, I asked whether Islam was the problem, you all agree that it was - now Armstrong realizes the position he has put himself in and says it's governance - in other words the answer to mismanagement is, yes, you guessed it, Islam or is it IslamISM.

Both Armstrong and Develepero agree that "Virus" is not complementary - now if we said armed Democrats were attacking the state and the nation, or that armed communists were and were spreading their message with assistance of foreign funding, h might they respond??

Hyperion says it's not the 90's - as if the solutions are necessarily time bound

Our solution will come form how we choose to define the problem - clearly defining the problem as Islam is going to be problematic - Would defining the problem as Islamism also be problematic?? Yes it is a trick question

Because I'm persuaded that some will object strongly to describing the problem as Islam-ISM, they see no distinction between Islam and Isam-Ism - and therefore the need to save 16 year old bombers and assassins - redemption for all, noble indeed.

Now if you want to avoid the case of the problem and focus on governance, sure - even then you will begin and end with Islam - see Khialfat thread -- It's reckoning and we can't keep running from it indefinitely - resolve to finish this war and fight it - if they give up, great, they won't escape justice, that must be a given - it would mean blood letting -- so what do you think we have had up till now? 40K cilians killed more than 5 soldiers, more Pakistanis killed than in India Pak wars.

 

[Armstrong]

Yara, you write such lengthy posts, always expanding upon the obvious. Is this some sort of "Accountability" tactic you are practicing on me? I give up.

As if I want to do that ! Every time we have a conversation about one of these issues, you slither away somewhere on the pretense of having dinner with someone or giving a massage to one of your male friends, only to be back to square one the very next day !

Ok, fair enough, so please explain why your posts have been about Islam??

look friends, I asked whether Islam was the problem, you all agree that it was - now Armstrong realizes the position he has put himself in and says it's governance - in other words the answer to mismanagement is, yes, you guessed it, Islam or is it IslamISM.

Both Armstrong and Develepero agree that "Virus" is not complementary - now if we said armed Democrats were attacking the state and the nation, or that armed communists were and were spreading their message with assistance of foreign funding, h might they respond??

Hyperion says it's not the 90's - as if the solutions are necessarily time bound

Our solution will come form how we choose to define the problem - clearly defining the problem as Islam is going to be problematic - Would defining the problem as Islamism also be problematic?? Yes it is a trick question

Because I'm persuaded that some will object strongly to describing the problem as Islam-ISM, they see no distinction between Islam and Isam-Ism - and therefore the need to save 16 year old bombers and assassins - redemption for all, noble indeed.

Now if you want to avoid the case of the problem and focus on governance, sure - even then you will begin and end with Islam - see Khialfat thread -- It's reckoning and we can't keep running from it indefinitely - resolve to finish this war and fight it - if they give up, great, they won't escape justice, that must be a given - it would mean blood letting -- so what do you think we have had up till now? 40K cilians killed more than 5 soldiers, more Pakistanis killed than in India Pak wars.

I find it difficult to make sense of such an incoherent post ! But I'm assuming that you're saying that there is a problem & that problem is 'Islam' in one way or the other even if it be because of 'Misgovernance' !

I disagree ! Misgovernance may take its form in a myriad ways one of them is the use & abuse of Islam just as we've seen the use & abuse of ethnicity, language & traditions (culture) in the past.

Deal with the 'misgovernance' & everything else will follow from there.

 

[Amaa'n]

by chance this photo was shared by a friend of mine on facebook, I thought I should share it with you guys too......