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Saudi Typhoon jets make surprise visit to Zeltweg air show

Since Saudi has paid a lot of money and so far the only non European buyer. Why don't they rename their typhoons with cool names such as (like the UAE F-16s are called Desert Falcons)

Desert Typhoon
Middle East Fighter ( instead of Euro fighter)

Many countries rename foreign fighters they purchase

I think i read somewhere the name desert eagle for the typhoon but i cat give you more info. Maybe it is because the UAE got its own block 60 made for it while we want the exact same thing the brits are getting but i dont know. You can ask the air force officers i cant help you on this one. Sorry.
 
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We destroyed our industry sir. In 1970 Pakistan was the most industrialized country in Asia. What has happened to us is our doing.
As for the remainder of your post it is their matter and theirs alone. Have they come up here and started grilling you about the as*ho*es we vote for? The way we, yes you and me (forget about the leaders) steal from our own country?

No we did not destroy our industry Govts of Pakistan did don't blame common Pakistanis.
The whole world is grilling us are you sleeping, turn on TV, read Papers and listen to radio.

I have absolutely nothing against common saudis my critics are solely towards saudi monarch, their attitude and their supporters.
 
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I have nothing against Saudi Arabia, it is just fact the truth.

Saudi Arabia have 154 F-15, 24 Eurofighter, 110 Tornado, 1000 M1A1, 1000 M60A3, UAE 80 F-16 block 60 AESA radar, 68 Mirage 2000. More buying and we will buy soon Russia jets.


Why Arabs Need Their Foreign Mercenaries
by James Dunnigan
March 24, 2011


Saudi Arabia recently bought 72 Typhoon jet fighters from Britain. The manufacturer, BAE Systems, is energetically recruiting qualified maintenance personnel to keep these aircraft flying. Few Saudis will be recruited, most of these technicians will come from the West. Why is that?

The unemployment rate in Saudi Arabia is 12 percent, but many of those men are unemployed by choice. Arabs tend to have a very high opinion of themselves, and most jobs available, even to poorly educated young men, do not satisfy. Thus most Saudis prefer a government job, where the work is easy, the pay is good, the title is flattering, and life is boring. In the non-government sector of the economy, 90 percent of the Saudi jobs are taken by foreigners. These foreigners comprise 27 percent of the Saudi population, mostly to staff all the non-government jobs. This means most young Saudi men have few challenges. One might say that many of them are desperate for some test of their worth, and a job in the competitive civilian economy does not do it, nor does the military.


The Saudi employment situation is not unique. The UAE (United Arab Emirates) has foreigners occupying 99 percent of the non-government jobs. The unemployment rate is 23 percent, but only a tenth of those are actually looking for a job. A survey indicated that most of the unemployed are idle by choice. Kuwait is more entrepreneurial, with only 80 percent of the non-government jobs taken by foreigners. The other Gulf Arab states (which have less oil) have a similar situation.

While the thousands of aircraft, helicopters, armored vehicles and other high-tech systems Saudi Arabia has bought in the last decade look impressive, the actual impact of all this lethal hardware depends a lot on the skill of those using it. In this department, the Saudis have some serious problems. And it is generally very difficult to get Saudis to even discuss the situation.

Examples are widely available, and seen daily by the thousands of Western technicians, specialists and trainers hired by Saudi Arabia to keep their high-tech gear operational. For example, Saudis, and Arabs in general, don't care for the Western custom of establishing minimum standards for, say, fighter pilots. It's long been known that it is very difficult to wash out a Saudi pilot who is well connected (especially a member of the huge royal family). There are some very good Saudi pilots, but they are a minority. The rest get by. As long as they can take off and land, they can stay in a squadron. During combat exercises, especially with American squadrons, it's understood that the low overall performance of Saudi pilots is not to be discussed with the Saudis, or anyone else. Junior American officers get irked by this, but it's career suicide to disobey orders on this point. The Saudis do spend a lot of money on training and letting the pilots fly. For this reason, they are considered marginally better than other Arab air forces. But against the Iranians, who more enthusiastically accepted Western training methods, they would have problems. Iranian aircraft are older and less well equipped, but pilot quality would make up for a lot of that.


The problem extends to ground crews, who don't take responsibility seriously and have to be constantly hounded by their foreign advisors and specialists hired to make sure the aircraft are flyable. And when something goes wrong, the foreign experts are expected to take the blame. That's what the foreigners are there for.

Many Saudis are aware of the problem, especially those who have studied in the West, or spent some time there. As a result, there are some very competent Saudi doctors, scientists and bankers. But this minority knows they are up against an ancient and well entrenched culture that does not seek out innovation and excellence as it is done in the West. The more insightful Saudis seek ways to work around these problems. For example, the royal family established the National Guard in the 1930s, as a private, tribal army, that is now almost as large as the regular army and considered more dependable and effective than the regulars. That's because the National Guard troops follow traditional rules of military leadership, and have a personal relationship with the king. Only men from tribes that are known to be loyal to the Saud family may join, and they are expected to make their family and tribe proud. Saddam Hussein, and other Arab leaders, form similar forces. Saddam had his Republican Guard. Despots the world over tend to have a guard force recruited more for blood ties and loyalty, than for anything else.

The regular forces (army, navy and air force) are just government jobs, run by another government bureaucracy. There are lower standards because there are none of the family or tribal ties that demand better. Only in the West do most people give the same devotion and respect to non-family/tribal institutions.

It comes down to a different cultural attitude towards taking responsibility for your actions. It's human nature to avoid failure, or taking responsibility for a mistake. Thus we have the concept of "saving face." One reason the West has made such economic, cultural, military and social progress in the last five hundred years is because they developed a habit of holding people responsible for their actions and giving out the rewards based on achievement. In the West, this sort of thing is taken for granted, even if it is not always practiced.

But in much of the rest of the world, especially the Arab world, things are different. Most Arab countries are a patchwork of different tribes and groups, and Arab leaders survive by playing one group off against another. Loyalty is to one's group, not the nation. Most countries are dominated by a single group that is usually a minority, as in Bedouins in Jordan, Alawites in Syria, Sunnis in Iraq (formerly) and Nejdis in Saudi Arabia. All of which means that officers are assigned not by merit but by loyalty and tribal affiliation.

Arab military leaders consider it acceptable to lie to subordinates and allies in order to further their personal agenda. This had catastrophic consequences during all of the Arab-Israeli wars and continues to make peace difficult between Israelis and Palestinians. When called out on this behavior, Arabs will assert that they were "misunderstood."

American officers and NCOs are only too happy to impart their wisdom and skill to others (teaching is the ultimate expression of prestige), but Arab officers try to keep any technical information and manuals secret. To Arabs, the value and prestige of an individual is based not on what he can teach, but on what he knows that no one else knows.

While Western officers thrive on competition among themselves, Arab officers avoid this as the loser would be humiliated. Better for everyone to fail together than for competition to be allowed, even if it eventually benefits everyone.

Western troops are taught leadership and technology; Arabs are taught only technology. Leadership is given little attention as officers are assumed to know this by virtue of their social status as officers.

In Arab bureaucracies, initiative is considered a dangerous trait. So subordinates prefer to fail rather than make an independent decision. Battles are micromanaged by senior generals, who prefer to suffer defeat rather than lose control of their subordinates. Even worse, an Arab officer will not tell an ally why he cannot make the decision (or even that he cannot make it), leaving Western officers angry and frustrated because the Arabs won't make a decision. The Arab officers simply will not admit that they do not have that authority.

This lack of initiative makes it difficult for Arab armies to maintain modern weapons. Complex modern weapons require on the spot maintenance, and that means delegating authority, information, and tools. Arab armies avoid doing this and prefer to use easier to control central repair shops (which makes the timely maintenance of weapons difficult). If you can afford it, as the Saudis can, you hire lots of foreign maintenance experts to keep equipment operational. All this is taken for granted inside Saudi Arabia, but looks quite strange to Westerners who encounter it for the first time.


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Why Arabs Lose Wars

* Most Arab countries are a patchwork of different tribes and groups, and Arab leaders survive by playing one group off against another. Loyalty is to one's group, not the nation. Most countries are dominated by a single group that is usually a minority (Bedouins in Jordan, Alawites in Syria, Sunnis in Iraq, Nejdis in Saudi Arabia). All of which means that officers are assigned not by merit but by loyalty and tribal affiliation.

* Islamic schools favor rote memorization, especially of scripture. Most Islamic scholars are hostile to the concept of interpreting the Koran (considered the word of God as given to His prophet Mohammed). This has resulted in looking down on Western troops that will look something up that they don't know. Arabs prefer to fake it, and pretend it's all in their head. Improvisation and innovation is generally discouraged. Arab armies go by the book, Western armies rewrite the book and thus usually win.

* There is no real NCO corps. Officers and enlisted troops are treated like two different social castes and there is no effort to bridge the gap using career NCOs. Enlisted personnel are treated harshly. Training accidents that would end the careers of US officers are commonplace in Arab armies, and nobody cares.

* Officers are despised by their troops, and this does not bother the officers much it all. Many Arab officers simply cannot understand how treating the troops decently will make them better soldiers.

* Paranoia prevents adequate training. Arab tyrants insist that their military units have little contact with each other, thus insuring that no general can became powerful enough to overthrow them. Units are purposely kept from working together or training on a large scale. Arab generals don't have as broad a knowledge of their armed forces as do their Western counterparts. Promotions are based more on political reliability than combat proficiency. Arab leaders prefer to be feared, rather than respected, by their soldiers. This approach leads to poorly trained armies and low morale. A few rousing speeches about "Moslem brotherhood" before a war starts does little to repair the damage.

* Arab officers often do not trust each other. While an American infantry officer can be reasonably confident that the artillery officers will conduct their bombardment on time and on target, Arab infantry officers seriously doubt that their artillery will do its job on time or on target. This is a fatal attitude in combat.

* Arab military leaders consider it acceptable to lie to subordinates and allies in order to further their personal agenda. This had catastrophic consequences during all of the Arab-Israeli wars and continues to make peace difficult between Israelis and Palestinians. When called out on this behavior, Arabs will assert that they were "misunderstood."

* While American officers and NCOs are only too happy to impart their wisdom and skill to others (teaching is the ultimate expression of prestige), Arab officers try to keep any technical information and manuals secret. To Arabs, the value and prestige of an individual is based not on what he can teach, but on what he knows that no one else knows.

* While American officers thrive on competition among themselves, Arab officers avoid this as the loser would be humiliated. Better for everyone to fail together than for competition to be allowed, even if it eventually benefits everyone.

* Americans are taught leadership and technology; Arab officers are taught only technology. Leadership is given little attention as officers are assumed to know this by virtue of their social status as officers.

* Initiative is considered a dangerous trait. So subordinates prefer to fail rather than make an independent decision. Battles are micromanaged by senior generals, who prefer to suffer defeat rather than lose control of their subordinates. Even worse, an Arab officer will not tell a US ally why he cannot make the decision (or even that he cannot make it), leaving US officers angry and frustrated because the Arabs won't make a decision. The Arab officers simply will not admit that they do not have that authority.

* Lack of initiative makes it difficult for Arab armies to maintain modern weapons. Complex modern weapons require on the spot maintenance, and that means delegating authority, information, and tools. Arab armies avoid doing this and prefer to use easier to control central repair shops. This makes the timely maintenance of weapons difficult.

* Security is maniacal. Everything even vaguely military is top secret. While US Army promotion lists are routinely published, this rarely happens in Arab armies. Officers are suddenly transferred without warning to keep them from forging alliances or networks. Any team spirit among officers is discouraged.

* All these traits were reinforced, from the 1950s to the 1990s, by Soviet advisors. To the Russians, anything military was secret, enlisted personnel were scum, there was no functional NCO system, and everyone was paranoid about everyone else. These were not "communist" traits, but Russian customs that had existed for centuries and were adopted by the communists to make their dictatorship more secure from rebellion. Arab dictators avidly accepted this kind of advice, but are still concerned about how rapidly the communist dictatorships all came tumbling down between 1989-91.

The Arab armies are paper tigers.
 
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Those two articles i memorized by heart from how mich people keep brining them up. And it is based on facts from 20-50 years ago.
But i based my whole point on the future not the past.
 
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No we did not destroy our industry Govts of Pakistan did don't blame common Pakistanis.
The whole world is grilling us are you sleeping, turn on TV, read Papers and listen to radio.

I have absolutely nothing against common saudis my critics are solely towards saudi monarch, their attitude and their supporters.

Im sorry sir but I beg to disagree. It was the people who brought them into power, over and over again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on you, fool me thrice i must be a frikkin idiot. Have the people ever stood up against anything they do? ever? We are more apt at sitting in our air-conditioned lounges, watching the news and blurting out all sorts of obscenities. Having been duped by a person over and over again we dont just stand there we go even further. We elect their unclean offspring next (Ms.Bhutto and now by the looks of it Bilawal the idiot has support too). But the industry example was of the vote going wrong. I wasnt exactly blaming it on the people.

Now for the people. Well lets go to the most basic level. A simple question Id like you to keep in mind while you read the following: Does the Pakistani people have any character?
Have you simply seen the way we drive? You dont need any fancy education to tell you that when I cut this X person off im proclaiming myself as one of greatest tw*ts of all time. Have you seen the way we talk to each other? Have you seen the way we subjugate our subordinates. The arogance befits an Arab prince. But as soon as we see someone more powerful than us we tuck our tails in between our legs and say "yes sir". How many of us actually pay taxes? Its fun to shout out that Benazir and Nawaz and falana and falana stole this much but how much have we stolen? 9% of the population pays their taxes sir. And then there are others who steal electricity, accept bribes on a daily bases, squeeze out every single penny that they can out of every government or private project that they can get their hands on. Then the contacts. Arent we all so proud of having our contacts....My dads friend is a DSP, my chacha is in the army, my mamoo is dg punjab......"I dont ever have to stand in lines" is what they say. And this is everyone of us. Iv had many a fights on this issue with my dad. And then he tells me that the system is f**ked up and thats why we have to do it. Well you can also bloody change the system.....no? Give a simple college security warden a pen and a piece of paper and that authority will be too much for him to not burst out of himself. His face will tell you that he is the lord of the land. Have you seen how these people stand up for every non-issue they can find? Have you seen how easily manipulated we are? Have you seen how everyone thinks that they know it all? You hear them talking and all you want to do is bang your bloody head against a bloody wall! These are bloody good for nothing sheep and nothing more! Have you seen the way we never let go of a chance to steal anything off of anyone. Be it the right of passage on the road, a spot in a queue or the right to be talked to with respect and a smile. And we dont even feel ashamed about it. These dont even cost anything. Our people find it easier to point their finger at anyone but themselves. Remember we are 187 million. We can fix any government in a jiff if we just so pleased to leave our lounge. And guess who the idiots leaving their lounges are>> "Mera bhai dhoop mein kharab ho gaya hai"........This is what we've been breading these days.......Im sorry but people of this sort do not get and do not deserve any good leader.

We, dear sir, on the most basic level are unclean.

ps: The world is grilling us on matters that "effect" them not the matters which are ours alone.
 
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Im sorry sir but I beg to disagree. It was the people who brought them into power, over and over again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on you, fool me thrice i must be a frikkin idiot. Have the people ever stood up against anything they do? ever? We are more apt at sitting in our air-conditioned lounges, watching the news and blurting out all sorts of obscenities. Having been duped by a person over and over again we dont just stand there we go even further. We elect their unclean offspring next (Ms.Bhutto and now by the looks of it Bilawal the idiot has support too). But the industry example was of the vote going wrong. I wasnt exactly blaming it on the people.

Now for the people. Well lets go to the most basic level. A simple question Id like you to keep in mind while you read the following: Does the Pakistani people have any character?
Have you simply seen the way we drive? You dont need any fancy education to tell you that when I cut this X person off im proclaiming myself as one of greatest tw*ts of all time. Have you seen the way we talk to each other? Have you seen the way we subjugate our subordinates. The arogance befits an Arab prince. But as soon as we see someone more powerful than us we tuck our tails in between our legs and say "yes sir". How many of us actually pay taxes? Its fun to shout out that Benazir and Nawaz and falana and falana stole this much but how much have we stolen? 9% of the population pays their taxes sir. And then there are others who steal electricity, accept bribes on a daily bases, squeeze out every single penny that they can out of every government or private project that they can get their hands on. Then the contacts. Arent we all so proud of having our contacts....My dads friend is a DSP, my chacha is in the army, my mamoo is dg punjab......"I dont ever have to stand in lines" is what they say. And this is everyone of us. Iv had many a fights on this issue with my dad. And then he tells me that the system is f**ked up and thats why we have to do it. Well you can also bloody change the system.....no? Give a simple college security warden a pen and a piece of paper and that authority will be too much for him to not burst out of himself. His face will tell you that he is the lord of the land. Have you seen how these people stand up for every non-issue they can find? Have you seen how easily manipulated we are? Have you seen how everyone thinks that they know it all? You hear them talking and all you want to do is bang your bloody head against a bloody wall! These are bloody good for nothing sheep and nothing more! Have you seen the way we never let go of a chance to steal anything off of anyone. Be it the right of passage on the road, a spot in a queue or the right to be talked to with respect and a smile. And we dont even feel ashamed about it. These dont even cost anything. Our people find it easier to point their finger at anyone but themselves. Remember we are 187 million. We can fix any government in a jiff if we just so pleased to leave our lounge. And guess who the idiots leaving their lounges are>> "Mera bhai dhoop mein kharab ho gaya hai"........This is what we've been breading these days.......Im sorry but people of this sort do not get and do not deserve any good leader.

We, dear sir, on the most basic level are unclean.

While it is alright for one to criticize his own country and country men. But pretty much hanging your dirty laundry for everyone to see is not a good thing either.
All societies have their share of good and bad apples. And as we Saudis have alot of problems too. But I believe in the future and I believe it is everyone's duty who had the blessing of education and an open mind to make sure than he do his share of teaching others around him and make sure his country has a better tomorrow even if all he can add to his country is 0.001% it is still a step forward.

The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said "religion is behavior" he also said "I was only sent to perfect the best of Moralities"
 
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While it is alright for one to criticize his own country and country men. But pretty much hanging your dirty laundry for everyone to see is not a good thing either.
All societies have their share of good and bad apples. And as we Saudis have alot of problems too. But I believe in the future and I believe it is everyone's duty who had the blessing of education and an open mind to make sure than he do his share of teaching others around him and make sure his country has a better tomorrow even if all he can add to his country is 0.001% it is still a step forward.

The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said "religion is behavior" he also said "I was only sent to perfect the best of Moralities"

Sir, Im not BSing you, at times watching my people makes one want to cry. These people are filled to the brim with potential and ability, I swear on my life that this is true. But all we can seem to do is talk and blame others. Never accepting our own faults. This country is truly a gift from God himself and we are ruining it. This country too deserves sincerity from its people........ no? We can leave the world in our dust but instead we oblige ourselves in petty bickering. Sir. Mohammad Ali Jinnah we are sorry for what we have done to your Pakistan.
 
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Sir, Im not BSing you, at times watching my people makes one want to cry. These people are filled to the brim with potential and ability, I swear on my life that this is true. But all we can seem to do is talk and blame others. Never accepting our own faults. This country is truly a gift from God himself and we are ruining it. This country too deserves sincerity from its people........ no? We can leave the world in our dust but instead we oblige ourselves in petty bickering. Sir. Mohammad Ali Jinnah we are sorry for what we have done to your Pakistan.

Since Islam's creation the Ummah has never been as weak as it is today. Sir. Muhammad ibn Abdullah we are sorry for what you did to your ummah.
But change starts with us. and only through us. god says in the Quran : "[13:11] Shifts (of angels) take turns, staying with each one of you - they are in front of you and behind you. They stay with you, and guard you in accordance with GOD's commands. Thus, GOD does not change the condition of any people unless they themselves make the decision to change. If GOD wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have none beside Him as Lord and Master"
 
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