Saudi envoy opens new mosque in Pakistan

[Wilhelm II]

A rare peaceful thread in middle East and Africa forum thanks to Pakistani brothers
Ramadan Kareem

 

[M. Sarmad]

Bro it is a part of faith, something not being obligatory does not mean it isn't a part of faith. For example, praying tarawih is not obligatory but we all know it is a part of Islam.

Faulty comparison
Tarawih prayer is a Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم
Face veiling, on the other hand, predates Islam. Women used to cover their heads, faces and entire bodies even in the Pre-Islamic pagan Arabia.

what is Hoodbhoy's problem?

He apparently has a problem with 'the Saudization of Pakistan'
His concerns are valid

 

[Numerous]

Faulty comparison
Tarawih prayer is a Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)
Face veiling, on the other hand, predates Islam. Women used to cover their heads, faces and entire bodies even in the Pre-Islamic pagan Arabia.

He apparently has a problem with 'the Saudization of Pakistan'
His concerns are valid

It's not a faulty comparison. The Muslim women only started face covering due to Islam. Whether or not, other people did it before them is irrelevant.

Scholars don't disagree whether face covering is a part of Islam or not, they disagree on whether it is compulsory or not. You can read about it here https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/81554/woman-covering-her-entire-body-face-hands-feet

3 -Allah Says in Surah an-Noor (what means): {…and to wrap [a portion of] their head covers over their chests….} [Quran 24:31]

Imam Al-Bukhaari narrated from ‘Aa’ishah

: “When (the verse) {…and to wrap [a portion of] their head covers over their chests….} was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist-sheets from their margins and covered their heads and faces with those cut pieces of cloth.”

Muslim women wore niqabs and hijabs long before Saudi Arabia ever existed. So definitely not due to Saudi Arabia, it is a normal Islamic practice that has existed in Islam from the times of the Prophet (pbuh).

 

[M. Sarmad]

It's not a faulty comparison. The Muslim women only started face covering due to Islam. Whether or not, other people did it before them is irrelevant.

Scholars don't disagree whether face covering is a part of Islam or not, they disagree on whether it is compulsory or not. You can read about it here https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/81554/woman-covering-her-entire-body-face-hands-feet



Hoodbhoy's real concern is with Muslim women dressing more Islamically. Muslim women wore niqabs and hijabs long before Saudi Arabia ever existed.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/vide...-skirt-goes-viral.616404/page-6#post-11423278

 

[Numerous]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/vide...-skirt-goes-viral.616404/page-6#post-11423278

There's no point in you linking me that. Face covering is a part of Islam, that's fact. Something existing before Islam somewhere in the world does not mean it is not a part of Islam.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Face covering is a part of Islam, that's fact.

No, it's not a fact... Women in Egypt, Arabia, Canaan and Persia veiled their faces long before Islam.

 

[Numerous]

No, it's not a fact... Women in Egypt, Arabia, Canaan and Persia veiled their faces long before Islam.

So what if they did? It doesn't matter.

It is still a part of Islam. There are even hadiths about it:

Allah Says in Surah an-Noor (what means): {…and to wrap [a portion of] their head covers over their chests….} [Quran 24:31]

Imam Al-Bukhaari narrated from ‘Aa’ishah

: “When (the verse) {…and to wrap [a portion of] their head covers over their chests….} was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist-sheets from their margins and covered their heads and faces with those cut pieces of cloth.”

Read that link I gave you, it'll be useful. I read part of your link and your initial hoodbhoy text, you should read mine too.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Read that link I gave you, it'll be useful. I read part of your link and your initial hoodbhoy text, you should read mine too.

I did read it, bro
And even before reading that I knew very well what the 'Salafi' position regarding 'niqab' was

 

[ali_raza]

i dont like pervez musharaff or pervez hoodbhoy but i am fine with other pervezs



Most people who wear an abaya don't cover their face. Abaya by themselves are not even a headcovering, they're specifically the long dress type clothing, I'm pretty sure. But most women who wear an abaya do cover their head with a hijab.

One of his sentences is this:

"This shapeless gown, usually black, is of Arab origin. But today, countless shops in every city of Pakistan Saudization of Pakistan specialize in abayas, hijabs, and burqas."

So he includes hijabs alongside abayas and burqas.

Also there is nothing wrong with face covering, it too is a part of our faith. So even his attacks on the burqa are bad. Women who wear burqas or niqabs are perfectly fine.

my mom never wears abaya not ingulf not in pak.
bro please don’t spread propaganda
its a women virtue to cover herself
and we happens to follow same religion maybe you know
islam

It’s because of Ibn Saud that we have become infested with Khwarij extremism... across the world infact. The petro dollar has been a curse for the Muslim world

who r u infested with dear.
stop blaming people for ur own doings
i can say it with proof that iranians fund way more then saudis will ever do
and iranians r dirty

 

[Numerous]

my mom never wears abaya not ingulf not in pak.
bro please don’t spread propaganda
its a women virtue to cover herself
and we happens to follow same religion maybe you know
islam

I think you've misread my post bro. I never said women have to wear an abaya.

I did read it, bro
And even before reading that I knew very well what the 'Salafi' position regarding 'niqab' was

That position was there long before there were people walking around calling themselves salafis and my link mentioned that it is not an opinion inclusive to the hanbalis (as there people from the shafi madhab who also hold the same opinion).

Bro even look at the poem Hoodbhoy shared at the end of his article written by some sufi:

I am not a Muslim None may call me Christian or Jew I am not of the East, nor the West I am neither of earth nor water I am not of India or China I am not of the kingdom of Iraq I am not of this world nor the next, not of heaven, nor of purgatory. My place is the placeless, My trace is the traceless. It is not the body nor is it the soul, for I belong to the soul of my love. If I should win a moment with You, I will put both worlds under my feet and dance forever in joy. O Shams of Tabriz, I am so drunk in the world that except for revelry and intoxication I have no tale to tell.

The first line of his poem is enough to throw some serious red flags up in the air. It shows his minset. Hoodbhoy is a liberal, it's not saudization that he has a problem with, he has a problem with pakistani muslims becoming more religious. When he shows his disdain for the hijab or niqab wearing women, he is showing his disdain for Islam.

 

[M. Sarmad]

That position was there long before there were people walking around calling themselves salafis and my link mentioned that it is not an opinion inclusive to the hanbalis (as there people from the shafi madhab who also hold the same opinion).

The official position of the Shafi Madhab which reflects the view of Imam Al-Shafi‘i and his students is that face is not part of the 'Awrah', meaning that it's not obligatory for a woman to cover her face. Only a few Hanafi and Shafi’i jurists have argued that since uncovering the face might lead to fitnah, covering the face is obligatory at all times.

Only Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence considers face (and the hands) as 'Awrah', meaning that face covering is obligatory for women.

Bro even look at the poem Hoodbhoy shared at the end of his article written by some sufi
The first line of his poem is enough to throw some serious red flags up in the air. It shows his minset. Hoodbhoy is a liberal, it's not saudization that he has a problem with, he has a problem with pakistani muslims becoming more religious. When he shows his disdain for the hijab or niqab wearing women, he is showing his disdain for Islam.

Bro, that 'some sufi' is actually Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (R.A)

XXXI

What is to he done, O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself.
I am either Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem.
I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea;
I am not of Nature's mint, nor of the circling' heaven.
I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire;
I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity.
I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin
I am not of the kingdom of 'Iraqian, nor of the country of Khorasan
I am not of the this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell
I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan.
My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless ;
'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved.
I have put duality away, I have seen that the two worlds are one;
One I seek, One I know J One I see, One I call.
He is the first, He is the last, He is the outward, He is the inward;
I know none other except 'Ya Hu' and 'Ya man Hu.'
I am intoxicated with Love's cup, the two worlds have passed out of my ken ;
I have no business save carouse and revelry.
If once in my life I spent a moment without thee,
From that time and from that hour I repent of my life.
If once in this world I win a moment with thee,
I will trample on both worlds, I will dance in triumph for ever.
O Shamsi Tabriz, I am so drunken in this world,
That except of drunkenness and revelry I have no tale to tell.
https://www.khamush.com/divani_shams.htm

 

[Numerous]

The official position of the Shafi Madhab which reflects the view of Imam Al-Shafi‘i and his students is that face is not part of the 'Awrah', meaning that it's not obligatory for a woman to cover her face. Only a few Hanafi and Shafi’i jurists have argued that since uncovering the face might lead to fitnah, covering the face is obligatory at all times.

Only Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence considers face (and the hands) as 'Awrah', meaning that face covering is obligatory for women.


Bro, that 'some sufi' is actually Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (R.A)

Then let me ask you - what's the problem? Our scholars do not hold animosity against the niqab, so who cares about what a person like Hoodbhoy thinks?

No it wasn't Rumi, Hoodbhoy said it was Shams of Tabriz who wrote that one. I googled it and they are different people.

 

[M. Sarmad]

No it wasn't Rumi, Hoodbhoy said it was Shams of Tabriz who wrote that one. I googled it and they are different people.

Google Divani Shamsi Tabriz by Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (R.A)

Then let me ask you - what's the problem? Our scholars do not hold animosity against the niqab, so who cares about what a person like Hoodbhoy thinks?

The Problem is 'The Saudization of Pakistan'

 

[Numerous]

Google Divani Shamsi Tabriz by Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (R.A)



The Problem is 'The Saudization of Pakistan'

I'm not interested bro.

Hijab, niqab, burqa = islam
Not inclusive to saudi arabia.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I'm not interested bro.

Hijab, niqab, burqa = islam
Not inclusive to saudi arabia.

Neither am I ... Bro

And niqab,burqa ≠ islam

Have a nice day