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Saudi Arabia and Qatar Ratcheting Up Sectarian and Ethnic Tensions In Iraq

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what i personnaly consider the best newspaper in the world : New York Times :
have a look at this article:

Cash Flow to Terrorists Evades U.S. Efforts


To be fair, that's sort of backing what al-Hasani is saying.

So we could blame Saudi for perhaps not doing enough to stop funds going to terrorist group - but nothing in that article suggested that the Saudi government is directly involved.

Stopping funds is difficult. The Americans had the same problems with Irish in America sending money to the IRA against Brits.
 
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This is true.
That's the difference between Iran and KSA:
Iran is led by one person who is deciding (and having a huge amount of money that is not declared for what it is spent for) where the weapons and money goes. So clearly the Iranian leader is totally responsible of terrorism by Iran.

KSA let his nationals and see just the last comment in the article . ... it says a lot.
If they really wanted to make such efforts (and USA blame them for it) the situation would be better. Not the fault of direct sponsorhip of terrorism but letting it to be.
 
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Exactly. But tell that to members here who struggle to understand even the most simple English. Like a kindergarten.

You make no sense. Al-Qaeda was created by USA. It is well-known. The Americans admit it themselves, so you are fooling nobody. Osama bin Laden had no ties to the KSA government and he was STRIPPED of his Saudi passport 15 years ago and expelled LONG before any Al-Qaeda attacks. Why do you think that he lived in Afghanistan and Sudan in the first place? He was not allowed to enter KSA. Do you understand this? Probably not, since it's too complicated for you.

Also don't even mention Iran. They hosted Al-Qaeda members and even Osama Bin Ladens family members who escaped from Afghanistan into Iran after the American invasion with the blessing of Iran's Mullahs. Unlike KSA. This is a fact as well. Al-Qaeda has targeted KSA many times but are yet to target Iran. Also a fact. Despite being the most sophisticated and powerful terrorist group.

Unlike you, I know more about Islam since I have actually studied it closely and virtually all schools of though, groups and the history. The Deobanis, as even your link proves, are limited to South Asia and have nothing to do with Arabs or KSA. So basically that is just more nonsense.

Also learn to differentiate between Salafis, who traditionally don't even engage in politics (real Salafis) who have existed since Islam's birth and Jihadists. As I already told you then Jihad was performed during the Crusades and by the Rashidun Army and even the Prophet Muhammad (saws) himself. It has nothing to do with any state of today or organization. Nobody created it.

You are wasting my time.

Hussein seems like a decent chap. I don't agree with him on this topic, but he seems well-balanced and sees the good & the bad in his country, which is important.

As for the US creating Al Qaeda. I agree with Hussein on this. The USA stupidly (in hindsight) because of their paranoia over communism - funded groups that were against the Soviets.

They weren''t to know that years later, part of the Mujahideen would turn on them in the form of Al Qaeda.

Lesson learned? well....not sure, as they seem to be getting more deeply involved in Syria.
 
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This is true.
That's the difference between Iran and KSA:
Iran is led by one person who is deciding (and having a huge amount of money that is not declared for what it is spent for) where the weapons and money goes. So clearly the Iranian leader is totally responsible of terrorism by Iran.

KSA let his nationals and see just the last comment in the article . ... it says a lot.
If they really wanted to make such efforts (and USA blame them for it) the situation would be better. Not the fault of direct sponsorhip of terrorism but letting it to be.

Hmmm not quite true though.

Iran's regional shenanigans are not down to just the one man. He may make the big decisions, but we know the revolutionary guards get up to mischief on their own accord and other layers in Iran.

Again, the article you linked seemed to suggest that Saudi was more incompetently dealing with some of its citizens funnelling money - rather than allowing it.

I just don't understand why there are so many people willing to blow themselves up in markets, on buses etc. There seems to be a queue of suicide bombers. Like a waiting list.
 
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Hussein seems like a decent chap. I don't agree with him on this topic, but he seems well-balanced and sees the good & the bad in his country, which is important.

As for the US creating Al Qaeda. I agree with Hussein on this. The USA stupidly (in hindsight) because of their paranoia over communism - funded groups that were against the Soviets.

They weren''t to know that years later, part of the Mujahideen would turn on them in the form of Al Qaeda.

Lesson learned? well....not sure, as they seem to be getting more deeply involved in Syria.

Trust me. The ideology of Al-Qaeda was created at a US university. Not kidding. I will find the link. Do you know that the former FBI chief and that person who was behind the chase of Osama Bin Laden indirectly admitted that?

It is no secret that USA was actively involved in radicalizing Pakistanis, Afghans and others and used those elements to fight the Soviet Union (remember it was during the cold war). The adviser to presidetn Carter, Zbigniew Brezisnki was a Pole and he orchestered all this. His aim was to create a Soviet "Vietnam" in Afghanistan for the Soviets in order for him to free Central and Eastern Europe from communist rule.

I will post links as soon as I find them.
 
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Here you go. American hypocrisy at its best.

Zbigniew Brzezinski to Jihadists: Your cause is right! - YouTube

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.



Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?



B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.


Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?


B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up ******* or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

See this clip.

Al-Qaeda Does Not Exist !! - Former CIA Officer Michael Scheuer Speaks Out !! - YouTube

Michael Scheuer was the chief of the CIA Bin Laden unit. In other words the person behind the chase of Bin Laden.

I suggest everyone to listen to that last video clip. it's 10 minute long.

Especially the democracy part is very important. Take notice, Controlled Pair, since we had a little discussion about this yesterday.
 
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Trust me. The ideology of Al-Qaeda was created at a US university. Not kidding. I will find the link. Do you know that the former FBI chief and that person who was behind the chase of Osama Bin Laden indirectly admitted that?

It is no secret that USA was actively involved in radicalizing Pakistanis, Afghans and others and used those elements to fight the Soviet Union (remember it was during the cold war). The adviser to presidetn Carter, Zbigniew Brezisnki was a Pole and he orchestered all this. His aim was to create a Soviet "Vietnam" in Afghanistan for the Soviets in order for him to free Central and Eastern Europe from communist rule.

I will post links as soon as I find them.

I'm in general agreement with you, but just saying they "created Al Qaeda" makes it sound slightly different to what the truth is.

What you have to understand - and this is difficult for people to comprehend, but the Americans were so utterly paranoid about Communism. They truly believed it would take over the world and subjugate everyone.

The paranoia still exists to this day. Just look at the reaction to the Obama healthcare changes? many protesters were talking about socialism/communism taking over their country.

Back then, the Americans were in a real state of war. And this was global. This is why the UK got Nukes and pointed them at the Soviets.

So in this context, yes - the Americans funded groups and created groups to act against the Soviets.

However, what Americans didn't do, is fund an Islamic terrorist group with the intention that years later they would bomb markets, buses and hotels all over the world. These groups sadly morphed into these fiendish killers - but I don't think we can say the US "created Al Qaeda" in that sense.
 
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Hmmm not quite true though.

Iran's regional shenanigans are not down to just the one man. He may make the big decisions, but we know the revolutionary guards get up to mischief on their own accord and other layers in Iran.

Again, the article you linked seemed to suggest that Saudi was more incompetently dealing with some of its citizens funnelling money - rather than allowing it.

I just don't understand why there are so many people willing to blow themselves up in markets, on buses etc. There seems to be a queue of suicide bombers. Like a waiting list.
It is . Even after elections KHamenei changed the officers in sepah. Khamenei is the chief of sepah.
Khamenei is not the chief of army (non sepah): you know this army said that during green wave they would never attack any protester .

I know very well how it works for personal reasons. And i am providing informations myself to some newspapers about Iran.
So i guess i know well my country ;) Khamenei having a lot of different sources of money and he is the only one (except when president is cheating) to be able not say to the parliament or anyone what the money is spent for.

Suicide bombers exist in many countries not especially more in Iran. I am not going to explain how to become a suicide bomber because these people are different than me or you... i don't know how they can become like this.
I am a sayyid. but our religious teachings are very different than extremism and fanatism. Individual rights, freedom of speech, freedom to wear scarf or not, we always fought like this in my family.

Many Iranians will blame poor people... as we say "villagers" ; they will blame poor villagers manipulated to work in police or sepah. but it is very far to be an explanation and if they knew little bit more poor people they'd understand that it depends very much on education of parents. I mean like in any country of the world: i can see some people are fascist here in Francen very few but still they exist. Blaming all population or culture for this ...is not fair. i am not saying you are saying this but i hear it often .

I am very proud of Iranians . Instead of regime they are good people. It is hard to read "Iranians this or that"' by al-Hasani.

It reminds my pashtoon friends in Iran, who i like very much. One of them; his father is dead fighting against talibans and was a friend of Masoud. Still many people believe wrongly pashtoon = taliban or stone age people.

If we want the world to be better we have to work hard to do so. Not insult other nations and religions. Not threating other nations too.
 
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I'm in general agreement with you, but just saying they "created Al Qaeda" makes it sound slightly different to what the truth is.

What you have to understand - and this is difficult for people to comprehend, but the Americans were so utterly paranoid about Communism. They truly believed it would take over the world and subjugate everyone.

The paranoia still exists to this day. Just look at the reaction to the Obama healthcare changes? many protesters were talking about socialism/communism taking over their country.

Back then, the Americans were in a real state of war. And this was global. This is why the UK got Nukes and pointed them at the Soviets.

So in this context, yes - the Americans funded groups and created groups to act against the Soviets.

However, what Americans didn't do, is fund an Islamic terrorist group with the intention that years later they would bomb markets, buses and hotels all over the world. These groups sadly morphed into these fiendish killers - but I don't think we can say the US "created Al Qaeda" in that sense.

Please read my latest comment which I posted while you wrote your reply. The Americans created Al-Qaeda who has been the sole inspiration of every other group since then. They made the pretext to create it. They built the fundament later to leave it to others. What we see today is all due to American foreign politics. Failed one, may I add.

I am not against the West or America. I studied and lived in both and still do. I am writing this post from the West. My father worked in the West for years. I have relatives in the West and siblings who studied in the West. I have no agenda.

I just hate the simplistic myths that have been created where Arabs, especially Saudis, are always the bad guys and Muslims overall. It pisses me off quite frankly and I am not going to hide it. Israel is no saint either.

The truth is that the American foreign policy, and the creation of Israel is the root to most problems in the Arab and Muslim world. Before all that Jews and Muslims lived next to each other without any problems for Gods sake. My maternal grandmother's best friend was a Jewish Yemeni lady! From Syria in the north to Yemen in the South you find such cases. Even intermarriages. There is a great possibility of me having Yemeni Jewish blood even somewhere down the line (far back) as with many other Arabs on the Arabian Peninsula and outside of it.

What happened in Iran in 1979, another shameful event for the region in hindsight, also happened because of US involvement. You probably know about the coup d'état in Iran in 1953.

The British/West also caused more than enough problems in the Arab world by creating artificial states deliberately to make it impossible not to create ethnic and religious confrontations. The only Arab country that was no impacted by colonialists directly was KSA. UAE was a British colony until less than 50 years ago ffs!

America and West has a lot of apologizing and responsibility for all the mess, Israel included IMO.

Easy to blame the extremists now and don't look at the cause for all this and examine the history and lessons learnt.

Or shout Arab this, Muslim this, Saudi this, Iranian this etc.
 
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Hussein:

If you are a Sayyid then you are an Arab originally. Or your paternal ancestral line is Arab. I guess not much Iranian about you, if we look at it that way, if truth. You are also one of the more sensible Iranian members here on this forum, even despite some heated debates between us, which IMO, often is due to you misunderstanding what I writing to you. That might explain why.:cheesy: Although I know that many Iranians claim to be Sadah falsely (in the past their ancestors did to raise up in the social class) like in other regions outside of the Arab world.

Do you know your father's family history? Did they arrive to Iran recently? Or it is just a family history/legend? I know that, during the Turkic Safavids, when they forcibly converted Iranians from Sunni to Shia Twelver Islam, that many Arab clerics were imported (Shia) from current day Iraq, Eastern Province of KSA and elsewhere. Where you family one of those? And how many of such families are there in Iran by your estimation?

If you are a Sayyid then your ancestral homeland is Hejaz so next time slow down on the insults on KSA!:azn:
 
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It is . Even after elections KHamenei changed the officers in sepah. Khamenei is the chief of sepah.
Khamenei is not the chief of army (non sepah): you know this army said that during green wave they would never attack any protester .

I know very well how it works for personal reasons. And i am providing informations myself to some newspapers about Iran.
So i guess i know well my country ;) Khamenei having a lot of different sources of money and he is the only one (except when president is cheating) to be able not say to the parliament or anyone what the money is spent for.

Suicide bombers exist in many countries not especially more in Iran. I am not going to explain how to become a suicide bomber because these people are different than me or you... i don't know how they can become like this.
I am a sayyid. but our religious teachings are very different than extremism and fanatism. Individual rights, freedom of speech, freedom to wear scarf or not, we always fought like this in my family.

Many Iranians will blame poor people... as we say "villagers" ; they will blame poor villagers manipulated to work in police or sepah. but it is very far to be an explanation and if they knew little bit more poor people they'd understand that it depends very much on education of parents. I mean like in any country of the world: i can see some people are fascist here in Francen very few but still they exist. Blaming all population or culture for this ...is not fair. i am not saying you are saying this but i hear it often .

I am very proud of Iranians . Instead of regime they are good people. It is hard to read "Iranians this or that"' by al-Hasani.

It reminds my pashtoon friends in Iran, who i like very much. One of them; his father is dead fighting against talibans and was a friend of Masoud. Still many people believe wrongly pashtoon = taliban or stone age people.

If we want the world to be better we have to work hard to do so. Not insult other nations and religions. Not threating other nations too.

Come on Hussein, are you saying all of Iran's 'activities' are down to one elderly man? such an infrastructure for certain 'acts' is not orchestrated by one man. He's a figurehead for it.

The thing about Islam is the belief that this life is just a vehicle to the next life - the paradise. I think this creates a situation where this life is regarded as cheaper and thus more people are inclined to blow themselves up.

You see how you're upset over people's perceptions of Iran and then al-Hasani posts about his frustration about people's perception of Saudi. Also I have it from both sides about Israel.



al-Hasani - I need to remind you that a certain group is considered to be the mothership for all of the mainly Sunni groups. The Muslim Brotherhood.

Remember where Al Zawahiri comes from?

You're not going to tell me the Americans created the MB in the 20's/30's, are you?

I have to disagree of course about your assertion that Israel's creation is a cause. What about Saudi's creation? Lebanon? Jordan? all carved out by empires. Jews are a part of the middle east whether you like it or not. It's their birthplace and they have a right to a country - just as Arabs have a right to theirs.

Do you blame Israel for Iran and Iraq war? do you blame Israel for Iraq invading Kuwait? middle east is not peaceful and hadn't been for a long time.

As for the coup in Iran. The Brits were the main instigators but got the Americans to do it for them. So I'll hold my hands up there.


At least as an Israeli, I can bring you and Hussein together. Israel is the best for bringing all Muslims, Arabs and Iranians together in unity for a common cause. :cheesy:
 
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Come on Hussein, are you saying all of Iran's 'activities' are down to one elderly man? such an infrastructure for certain 'acts' is not orchestrated by one man. He's a figurehead for it.

The thing about Islam is the belief that this life is just a vehicle to the next life - the paradise. I think this creates a situation where this life is regarded as cheaper and thus more people are inclined to blow themselves up.

You see how you're upset over people's perceptions of Iran and then al-Hasani posts about his frustration about people's perception of Saudi. Also I have it from both sides about Israel.



al-Hasani - I need to remind you that a certain group is considered to be the mothership for all of the mainly Sunni groups. The Muslim Brotherhood.

Remember where Al Zawahiri comes from?

You're not going to tell me the Americans created the MB in the 20's/30's, are you?

I have to disagree of course about your assertion that Israel's creation is a cause. What about Saudi's creation? Lebanon? Jordan? all carved out by empires. Jews are a part of the middle east whether you like it or not. It's their birthplace and they have a right to a country - just as Arabs have a right to theirs.

Do you blame Israel for Iran and Iraq war? do you blame Israel for Iraq invading Kuwait? middle east is not peaceful and hadn't been for a long time.

As for the coup in Iran. The Brits were the main instigators but got the Americans to do it for them. So I'll hold my hands up there.


At least as an Israeli, I can bring you and Hussein together. Israel is the best for bringing all Muslims, Arabs and Iranians together in unity for a common cause. :cheesy:

Yes, the Muslim Brotherhood is the mother of modern political Islamism in all its forms. Notice that Islamism does not equal Jihadism. The latter is what we see whenever there is a religiously motivated attack. Islamism is a way of life and form of rule.

I have read many books on the Muslim Brotherhood and much of what Sayyid Qutb argued against was the Western influence in the Arab and Muslim world. Remember that Egypt was a British colony and that the monarchy was basically a British client. Who introduced socialism, liberalism and other alien forms of life in the Arab and Muslim world? I mean you do realize that the borders of most Arab states, expect KSA, have been literally drawn on a map. Much like Israel btw.

KSA was never a expansionist state. Every single territory of KSA is territory on the Arabian Peninsula and Arab territory. Then compare it to Iran for example where you have many ethnic groups and land that until recently never was Persian. Baluchistan fore example. The Kurdish problem as well.

The policies of KSA changed dramatically under Faisal's rule. He also saw communism as a threat and it was at that time that his neighbor on the Arabian Peninsula mind you the motherland of Islam (!), today's Yemen, in South Yemen, became the first Arab country in history to officially adopt Communism. I mean the threat was real. So to counter that Islamic rhetoric was used widely in the Arab world and exported. But that was not Al-Qaeda but just Islam. I see no problem with this. KSA did not try to export Islam to non-Muslim lands or violently. Or by declaring country x or y to be conquered, like Khomeini did with KSA (Makkah and Madinah). To me that's a noticeable difference.

Nobody said that Jews have no right to live in the Middle East. They are fellow Semitic people. I am not anti-Jew. I am anti-Zionism. Two very different things. I know Jews in real life and have no problem with them. If I was anti-Jew that would not happen. Also Jews and Arabs are both Semitic people with a similar history, traditions, customs and even religions. The similarities between Islam and Judaism are noticeable. Anyway off-topic.

I do not agree with how Israel was created and what has followed since 1947. Also my point was just to say that while Jews were massacred and persecuted in Europe for centuries Jews in Arab lands lived in Arab countries without problems and often with great influence. In Yemen and Iraq for example the Jews dominated the trade for example. And where good citizens.

Hehe, Hussein just admitted to be a closet-Arab at least in terms of ancestry, so that does not count. Anyway I never had a problem with him since we have had many interesting discussions before. But sometimes the waves can get high on a internet forum. You know.:cheesy:

I also have a bit of healthy Arab temper. "So watch out for flying rocks and camels, LOL!" (redneck accent)
 
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None of the gulf states want Iraq to become a regional power. They see a Shia majority government in Iraq as an extension for Iran in the region. *That is the reality that some members here have failed to read out of the article. *Other reasons include the economic potential for iraq which would compete with the gulf states.

Iran has supported terrorist organizations in Iraq from 2004-2008. They have stopped ever since the crackdown on Shia militias by the government. But * KSA and Qatar continue to support terrorist groups till this day. The terrorists might not be directly supported by the governments, but funding for opposition groups in Iraq is eventually funneled to "Sunni" extremist groups who are involved in terrorism. *Iran's support for the terrorists groups was to counter Gulf- supported groups which included former Baathists and the new Wahabi ideology which spread in Iraq after the invasion, with the flood of foreign fighters, and against US and British forces. *Not to point out that 95% of all terrorist attacks since 2008 have been committed by "Sunni" groups.

The reasons for supporting terrorism in Iraq for the gulf states is the same reason for supporting terrorism in Syria. *They fear a a strong alliance which could counter their influence in the future. *

Another reason is the expansion of the Shia ideology. *Tens of thousands of converts to shiaism have alarmed some Sunni states, they fear that once Shias become a significant minority, they will eventually act as proxies for Iran. That is the main reason for the growing anti-Shia media over the past 9 years. *Millions of dollars have been spent for new channels and programs to control the spread of the Shia belief, but they still cannot control it.

Qatari and Saudi officials have been meetings with Iraqi opposition members who are attempting to conspire against the government. *When Tariq Al Hashimi travelled to Qatar, he was greeted as an official although he is wanted for involvements in terrorist crimes in Iraq.*

Truth is as Doritos11 pointed out. Iraqis want to distant themselves from both the gulf states and Iran, but the continuous hostile acts are forcing Iraq to take sides. *The entire "Maliki" obsession has become a mere reason for hostility against Iraq, the truth is the "sunni" states as you call them are against Shia rule in Iraq. No matter who is in power, as long as he is Shia, these states will continue their hostility. most of your questions are answered in the article, did you even bother thread it? **

The "Sunni states" want to use Iraq as a tool to counter Iran. We Iraqis don't want to be involved in you obsession with Iran. We have already spend 8 years and over 3 million killed and injured countering Iranian influence. *If you have a problem with them, take you army and go to war with Iran, no one is stopping you, just leave Iraq out of it.*
 
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Yes, the Muslim Brotherhood is the mother of modern political Islamism in all its forms. Notice that Islamism does not equal Jihadism. The latter is what we see whenever there is a religiously motivated attack. Islamism is a way of life and form of rule.

I have read many books on the Muslim Brotherhood and much of what Sayyid Qutb argued against was the Western influence in the Arab and Muslim world. Remember that Egypt was a British colony and that the monarchy was basically a British client. Who introduced socialism, liberalism and other alien forms of life in the Arab and Muslim world? I mean you do realize that the borders of most Arab states, expect KSA, have been literally drawn on a map. Much like Israel btw.

KSA was never a expansionist state. Every single territory of KSA is territory on the Arabian Peninsula and Arab territory. Then compare it to Iran for example where you have many ethnic groups and land that until recently never was Persian. Baluchistan fore example. The Kurdish problem as well.

The policies of KSA changed dramatically under Faisal's rule. He also saw communism as a threat and it was at that time that his neighbor on the Arabian Peninsula mind you the motherland of Islam (!), today's Yemen, in South Yemen, became the first Arab country in history to officially adopt Communism. I mean the threat was real. So to counter that Islamic rhetoric was used widely in the Arab world and exported. But that was not Al-Qaeda but just Islam. I see no problem with this. KSA did not try to export Islam to non-Muslim lands or violently. Or by declaring country x or y to be conquered, like Khomeini did with KSA (Makkah and Madinah). To me that's a noticeable difference.

Nobody said that Jews have no right to live in the Middle East. They are fellow Semitic people. I am not anti-Jew. I am anti-Zionism. Two very different things. I know Jews in real life and have no problem with them. If I was anti-Jew that would not happen. Also Jews and Arabs are both Semitic people with a similar history, traditions, customs and even religions. The similarities between Islam and Judaism are noticeable. Anyway off-topic.

I do not agree with how Israel was created and what has followed since 1947. Also my point was just to say that while Jews were massacred and persecuted in Europe for centuries Jews in Arab lands lived in Arab countries without problems and often with great influence. In Yemen and Iraq for example the Jews dominated the trade for example. And where good citizens.

Hehe, Hussein just admitted to be a closet-Arab at least in terms of ancestry, so that does not count. Anyway I never had a problem with him since we have had many interesting discussions before. But sometimes the waves can get high on a internet forum. You know.:cheesy:

I also have a bit of healthy Arab temper. "So watch out for flying rocks and camels, LOL!" (redneck accent)

It's not so much "western influence" as empires.

You can't look through today's eyes at events from a long time ago. That was the way the world was. Empires came and went. They ruled over lands. They divided lands and drew new countries out on the back of an envelope.

Israel, rather then being created on the back of an envelope like Lebanon - was created through a nation vote. Giving it all the legitimacy needed.

Besides, 65 years on - I think it's time you got over it? it's unhealthy to be obsessed over things like that. And if you want to see regional stability, you could start by accepting Israel and be content that you have 22 other countries for your people.

Zionism is completely benign. The term has been hijacked. It's essentially a secular movement for the establishment and development of a nation for the Jewish people. Self-determination, hardly the work of the devil.

I think the trouble began when Mo decided to kill some Jews in Mecca? or was it Medina? I forget.

I certainly agree with you with regards to European attitudes towards Jews. I have always maintained that the greatest enemy of Jews are Europeans and not Arabs. It's hard to convince some people of that.

I didn't realise Hussein is Arab. As-salam alaykum brother ;)

The whole middle east has a temper. Still, the worst I ever met was a Greek woman I knew. Never make Greek women cross. They be crazy :)
 
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