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Salafi vs Muslim Brotherhood

All these parliament sessions are not a show, if we had real dictatorship things would go much faster unlike now with all these democratic policies/routines that have to be followed.
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Iraqi democracy can be compared to Egyptian democracy.
Monarchies of the ME are more authoritarian then these 2 ^^
In Morocco, Kuwait you can have your own political party and place in parliament but it does not make a difference, the Emir will always be the higher in power like Iran, the supreme leader rules.

Oh. Iraq is not comparable to any Western European democracy or any so-called democratic country in the Muslim world .There is no point discussing this because it is the reality. Even your link proves it.

I am not a supporter of Western styled democracy. I believe that Islam needs to play the biggest role in a society and in a Western styled democracy secularism is among the most important values and thus religion play no role.

Why do I need a so-called political parties when the country is evolving and the rulers are giving me the same benefits if not better than my neighbors who are republics? Or gives us stability.

I can make a choice between wanting the best Western democracy (for that I need to go to Western Europe or USA and not IRaq or any other Muslim/arab country, LOL) and if I believe in Islam and it's rules I want to live in the country/society where most of it rules are applied at the best of the abilities in year 2013 and in a cosmopolitan world.

I believe that proper Islamic rule can lead to the same results as any other system but be a better for a Muslim to live in.
 
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Oh, lastly just because I mentioned that the Caliphs that followed after the 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs were not as good as those (hence their name) it does not mean that I do not respect their achievements immensely and contribution to Islam. I am just pinpointing the hypocrisy shown by some users here. I respect the Ottoman Caliphs too but I am not blind for all their failures. Nor would I ever compare them to the 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs. No Sunni would.

At the end I am just making a point. Meaning that the rulers of KSA are not better or worse of when it comes to that.

The only difference is that many people are obsessed about the rulers of KSA but turning a blind eye to all other rulers in Muslim lands who are worse or those rulers who assumed the title of Caliph but were not elected by the people but inherited the throne from their fathers or bothers, who were engaged in murderous family frauds for the sake of acquiring the throne, who called themselves other titles such as Sultans, who gave the throne to their sons or who made un-Islamic acts too. Aside from taking the throne from one dynasty in the first place without a consensus like the case was with the Ottomans.
 
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Oh. Iraq is not comparable to any Western European democracy or any so-called democratic country in the Muslim world .There is no point discussing this because it is the reality. Even your link proves it.

I am not a supporter of Western styled democracy. I believe that Islam needs to play the biggest role in a society and in a Western styled democracy secularism is among the most important values and thus religion play no role.

Why do I need a so-called political parties when the country is evolving and the rulers are giving me the same benefits if not better than my neighbors who are republics? Or gives us stability.

I can make a choice between wanting the best Western democracy (for that I need to go to Western Europe or USA and not IRaq or any other Muslim/arab country, LOL) and if I believe in Islam and it's rules I want to live in the country/society where most of it rules are applied at the best of the abilities in year 2013 and in a cosmopolitan world.

I believe that proper Islamic rule can lead to the same results as any other system but be a better for a Muslim to live in.

I just said Iraq is nowhere near western democracy, but Iraqs regime is not as authoritarian as the monarchies in the region which puts its democratic status higher then those monarchies.
 
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I just said Iraq is nowhere near western democracy, but Iraqs regime is not as authoritarian as the monarchies in the region which puts its democratic status higher then those monarchies.

Al-Maliki has been labelled as a authoritarian by many Western analysts. He also has the control of many ministries at the same time. Ministries that should have been kept by other ministers in a real democracy. Iraq is not much different. Only on paper.

Also who is better off? Just compare the stability, development, infrastructure, happiness, size of economy, prospects, number of projects of the regions monarchies and the republics even those who have not suffered from conflicts and you get a clear picture of which system is better off in our world right now.

Look if I was born and grew up all my life in a REAL democracy such as Denmark, Netherlands etc. and my future lied there I would support their system because I did not know anything else. Or because Islamic rule is impossible there for now. But as a practicing Muslim I prefer to live in a Islamic society because I do not need all those "freedoms" since I find them useless and wrong as a Muslim since I have no need to attend a strip club, to drink alcohol or smoke weed which is legal in the Netherlands. I do not agree with gay marriages in churches. Nor with socialism, communism or other isms. A Islamic system gives the same freedom as any other system the difference is that it is Islamic freedom. A perfect system that is.

Since the time of the 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs is long gone then I prefer the least evil of options. If I was not a Muslim I would not care because why should I? I would not believe in any higher being and just follow my instincts.

Also we both saw Arab/Middle Eastern/ democracy in action in Egypt and throughout history for years. We see the Child-Murderer in action in Syria and his "republic".

Anyway I am tired and I probably barely make sense. Bad day.
 
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@al-Hasani

Sorry for interupting. Mullah is used in non Arab sunni countries in central asia. I think you meant to say its not used in the Arab world.
 
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@al-Hasani

Sorry for interupting. Mullah is used in non Arab sunni countries in central asia. I think you meant to say its not used in the Arab world.

Yes, hence "our part of the world". For my part that is the Arab world. You are welcome to interrupt all what you want. This is a internet forum after all.;)
 
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Al-Maliki has been labelled as a authoritarian by many Western analysts. He also has the control of many ministries at the same time. Ministries that should have been kept by other ministers in a real democracy. Iraq is not much different. Only on paper.

Also who is better off? Just compare the stability, development, infrastructure, happiness, size of economy, prospects, number of projects with what the regions monarchies and the Republics and you get a clear picture of which country is better off.

Look if I was born and grow up all my life in a REAL democracy such as Denmark, Netherlands etc. and my future lied there I would support their system because I did not know anything else. Or because Islamic rule is impossible there for now. But as a practicing Muslim I prefer to live in a Islamic society because I do not need all those "freedoms" since I find them useless as a Muslim since I have no need to attend a strip club, to drink alcohol or smoke weed which is legal in the Netherlands. I do not agree with gay marriages in churches. Nor with socialism, communism or other isms. A Islamic system gives the same freedom as any other system the difference is that it is Islamic freedom. A perfect system that is.

Since the time of the 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs is long gone then I prefer the least evil of options. If I was not a Muslim I would not care because why should I? I would not believe in any higher being and just follow my instincts.

Also we both saw Arab/Middle Eastern/ democracy in action in Egypt and throughout history for years. We see the Child-Murderer in action in Syria and his "republic".

Westen analysts should not compare it with a western democracy, those multiple ministries that he controlls is not even reality, barzani spewed crap while hes the biggest dictator with 3 family members in parliament, its a family owned government there yet he opens his mouth and the media reports it..

Also who is better off? Just compare the stability, development, infrastructure, happiness, size of economy, prospects, number of projects with what the regions monarchies and the Republics and you get a clear picture of which country is better off.

Has nothing to do with political system, Iraq had 3 wars and sanctions unlike GCC, before Iraq used to be more advanced in all these fields you just named, 1979 and pre.

I know these republics with their extremist regimes are not better off then monarchies, thats because of external enemies, the USA usually, if not for them these regimes would have united countries and made them powerfull.
They have supported many coups, meddling in internal affairs.

About the Islamic state and caliph thing, who is right today ?
Jahbat al nusrah and al qaeda ?
Never seen such trash in the world as these.
 
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Westen analysts should not compare it with a western democracy, those multiple ministries that he controlls is not even reality, barzani spewed crap while hes the biggest dictator with 3 family members in parliament, its a family owned government there yet he opens his mouth and the media reports it..

Also who is better off? Just compare the stability, development, infrastructure, happiness, size of economy, prospects, number of projects with what the regions monarchies and the Republics and you get a clear picture of which country is better off.

Has nothing to do with political system, Iraq had 3 wars and sanctions unlike GCC, before Iraq used to be more advanced in all these fields you just named, 1979 and pre.

I know these republics with their extremist regimes are not better off then monarchies, thats because of external enemies, the USA usually, if not for them these regimes would have united countries and made them powerfull.
They have supported many coups, meddling in internal affairs.

About the Islamic state and caliph thing, who is right today ?
Jahbat al nusrah and al qaeda ?
Never seen such trash in the world as these.

But you must say that Iraq is not a comparable democracy to the West. Far from. Until now. Also we all know that most people do not care about politics. It is one big mafia in our countries. This is the reality. Everyone wants to be a dictator.

Well, I do not agree. For example in the West monarchies (constitutional ones though) tend to be much more stable and prosperous states than republics. A coincidence? Well, most analysts and experts don't think so.

I am just saying that monarchial rule is the most stable one in our part of the world and history shows this. The second Yemen became a republic (several parts were ruled by emirs, Imams etc.) it became a mess quickly and all the political ideologies fought against each other and Islam became very weak in the state but not among the people.

Iraq would be more stable with a monarchy today. All those different political parties, agendas, rivalries etc. would not have existed. Look, even a constitutional monarchy with a political system (parliament, political parties, voting, etc.) a head of state would serve as a uniting force or figure.

In Islam a Caliph was not only a religious leader but also a community leader and all what that entitles.

You think that such a diverse country as KSA with possibly many interests would be better off in a system like Iraq? Or Iran? Those countries would be divided. Just look at Iraq today. We do not want that.

Oh, I do not know what Nusrah and Al-Qaeda has to do with anything. What do they represent and who? Not me.

Personally I could live fine and perfect live in old quarter of Jeddah, near the beautiful coast in Hejaz, in the mountains of Hejaz in a house with a garden etc. and I do not need more. Alone from all useless politics, conflicts and just little community.

Oh, I am not necessarily a supporter of monarchial rules over republics I am just saying that they have a better track record in our part of the world in the recent many decades than other form of rules.

EDIT: Don't bother to correct all the grammar this time. Too tired....Been half-sleeping during this whole debate.:coffee:
 
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@Yzd Khalifa

7abibi can you help and tell forum members not from KSA why most of us are happy about our rulers and system although there could be improvements. I am too tired and I had a bad day. My English is bad today too. You cannot/should not read this long debate just look want Naifov wrote. We must help him economically so he stops making propaganda and takes us people for fools. I like Naifov but he seems to have a bad day today like I have.

Please call @Arabian Legend and @JUBA since I trust their judgement on this. Some things are also not easy to explain in English much easier in Arabic.

@BLACKEAGLE would be excellent too so he can explain the system in Jordan too. His English is excellent and he is wise old member.

I do not think that all people understand what we mean.
 
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@Yzd Khalifa

7abibi can you help and tell forum members not from KSA why most of us are happy about our rulers and system although there could be improvements. I am too tired and I had a bad day. My English is bad today too. You cannot/should not read this long debate just look want Naifov wrote. We must help him economically so he stops making propaganda and takes us people for fools. I like Naifov but he seems to have a bad day today like I have.

Please call @Arabian Legend and @JUBA since I trust their judgement on this. Some things are also not easy to explain in English much easier in Arabic.

@BLACKEAGLE would be excellent too so he can explain the system in Jordan too. His English is excellent and he is wise old member.

I do not think that all people understand what we mean.

875.gif


I am not old..;/

I'll be back later.
 
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@kalu_miah
I personally neither support political Islam nor the Salafi creed, but if I have to choose, I feel that Brotherhood is more pragmatic, while Salafi's seem like going back in time. Also Brotherhood accepts and works with democracy, which I believe is inevitable eventually for all society, although the timeline and the evolutionary path is different for different societies.

Well, the Salafis never took the lead in politics yet, however, some extremists elements within their branch are associated with radical groups such as Al-Qaida or AL-Nusrah Front.

The MB never accepted the democratic values as they are or at least should be, Morsi tried to change the constitution 3 times at least, in other word, their democracy is bogus.


Also, I have seen in some of the above articles that Brotherhood was supporting groups in Gulf countries to overthrow Monarchies. That definitely was meddling in internal affairs of other countries, in my opinion, and irresponsible on their part, a practice they should stop absolutely.

Yes, that's true. The MB is imperialistic to its core. Would you like to know which country felt really happy about the fall of Morsi? It's the UAE, they have been bugging them for ages, interfering in their internal affairs, and more.

For us - Saudis - the difference is between the Muslim brotherhood and Salafism is crystal clear.

Firstly, we need to define what the Muslim brotherhood stands for. The MB, by definition, is a socio-cultural movement that adopts conservative Sunni sect. The MB had also been playing a political role wherever it exists in the Arab World except KSA. In Egypt, the MB never took the lead in politics, in fact, the MB had always been on the opposition of the majority of the political elites in Egypt. So, briefly, the fall of the MB was imminent due to the lack of experience in governance, and its likes. Last but not least, let's not forget that the MB in Egypt went through so much of hardships, Jamal AN locked them up in jail for years, which had lead them to endorse violence over tolerance, the MB was key in the assassination of Anwar Al-Sadat.

Secondly, Salafism,on the other hand, is not a political movement, but rather a sub-sect of Sunni Islam, the degree of its conservatism may vary from one society to anther, Salafis in Germany may be as twice extremist as the Salafis in the UK. Additionally, Salafis in general don't play a role in politics, they're more isolated to themselves, and some of them may develop some sort of extremist views from time to time. However, Many Salafi scholars condemned the attack of civilians - regardless of their faith -
Additionally, Salafism can be defined as the purification of the practices of Sunni Islam, as well as the interpretation of Quran and Hadith. For example, Salafis DO reject that people shouldn't call upon the dead to help them out or save them. Basically, the Salafis believe that all duties, prayers, and pillars of Islam should only be given to one entity and one entity only, God.
 
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@<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=145565" target="_blank">Yzd Khalifa</a></u>

7abibi can you help and tell forum members not from KSA why most of us are happy about our rulers and system although there could be improvements. I am too tired and I had a bad day. My English is bad today too. You cannot/should not read this long debate just look want Naifov wrote. We must help him economically so he stops making propaganda and takes us people for fools. I like Naifov but he seems to have a bad day today like I have.

Please call @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=137740" target="_blank">Arabian Legend</a></u> and @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=141627" target="_blank">JUBA</a></u> since I trust their judgement on this. Some things are also not easy to explain in English much easier in Arabic.

@<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=3346" target="_blank">BLACKEAGLE</a></u> would be excellent too so he can explain the system in Jordan too. His English is excellent and he is wise old member.

I do not think that all people understand what we mean.

Re: Hello Saudi Arabia (arabic subtitles) - YouTube

 
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@al-Hasani sorry for my late response. Like yourself, I do not think Salafi vs Brotherhood is a big problem in Syria now and the situation there will sort itself out, hopefully, with the introduction of advanced weaponry on the opposition side. I brought up this subject in this thread, mainly about Egypt and what is happening there.

@Yzd Khalifa Thanks for your kind response to my questions. MB has made many mistakes in the past, but I believe they are evolving and I am hoping that they will improve their relationship with Gulf Monarchs.

Al Nour party (Salafi leaning) has now withdrawn support for the "coup" led by Al Sissi, after the Army opened fire on pro-Morsi protesters. That is a good sign. I believe what we need in Egypt is a swift return to civilian power. In order to resolve the problems between pro and anti Morsi people in Egypt, Al Sissi could do the following, as mentioned by me in a post in the Egypt related thread:

1. Bring together all political parties and groups to write a new constitution, and make sure that constitution has a clause that referendum must have a minimum participation rate of lets say 67% (2/3) of the electorate

2. Another clause could be that of impeaching non-performing Presidents in a referendum, and according to this clause, a referendum could be held to impeach Morsi. If impeachment fails then Morsi would be reinstated

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...ursi-govt-updates-news-102.html#ixzz2YUAqIAs9

As for @Naifov, I respect his point of dissent and disagreement. If a significant portion of Saudi population think like him, then ruling Monarchs would be wise to hear their side of opinion, rather than dismissing it or trying to suppress it.

As for Islam being on the side of democracy or not, I would prefer for Islam to be on the side of democracy, because for human social evolution, there is not much alternative. No developed thinking population will accept non-democratic form of govt., in the long term. So I would hope that at least MB is supporting democracy due to correct interpretation of Islam, like Naifov mentioned. But Yzd Khalifa mentioned that MB is imperialistic and I agree with that view as well, due to their meddling against monarchs. I believe that even after 80 years of existence they are still political novices and still learning. Since they and parties similar to them are a significant force in the Sunni Muslim World (AKP, Jamat-e-Islami in South Asia), then I would hope that they will mature sooner than later in their approach.

According to my theories of Human social evolution and geopolitics, less externally enforced disruption and more voluntary evolution is better for any given society. So countries today that are most advanced have all retained their hereditary Monarchy (Western Europe and Japan), albeit in the constitutional form. This shows that Monarchy and old traditions as a part of cultural and historical continuity have their proper significant place in the evolution of societies, that were lucky enough to have their Monarchs not decapitated by foreign forces.
 
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While there is a salafi influence in nearly all Sunni countries, the brotherhood is mostly confined to Arab nations. The Pakistani equivalent of the brotherhood has no rule influence, Afghanistan's political situation is still up in the air, and idk about Bangladesh but those two woman seem to have a monopoly on things over there. As for Central Asian states while they are majority Muslim they have been brainwashed by years of communist rule and the majority are none practicing unfortunately. Also their current leadership are remnants of their communist past and have strong ties to Moscow including defense ties.

As for what I put in bold I believe you need to add shias as well, they are still a part of whats left of this Ummah although a lot of their beliefs have been mixed up by their clerics (twelvers at least) based on some of the videos I have seen on this forum on what they follow. That being said we should not ignore them instead we should try to re-include them into the right Islamic school of thought once their regime falls. If you want to believe in Ummah and uniting Muslims then you must believe in all sects not pick and choose. The Iranians were once all Sunnis and were the forefront of Islamic knowledge, food for thought.

That is how I used to think. But I have changed my mind recently, because of digging a little deeper about History of Shia-Sunni relations, specially after what has happened in Iraq and then what is going on in Syria now, as we speak. I have also read this book:
The Shia Revival by Vali Nasr - The Globalist

Shia's as a minority have always been much more clannish and united than the majority Sunni. As far as I can tell, they have united under a Shia Umma and is engaged in a fight of Supremacy with the greater Sunni world, who they would like to convert to Shiism. This Supremacy of a small minority and eventual conversion is an impractical and impossible dream, but pragmatism seems to be absent from the strategies taking shape in Qom.

So, as a result, I have excluded them from any future Sunni unity efforts, such as:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...amic-extremism-global-fiqh-council-gfc-6.html

Sunni's need to unite first and it is only after that Sunni Muslims can consider any reconciliation effort with Shia's. It sounds like sectarian talk, but Shia's action and strategy forces the Sunni side into this situation.

In Arab League and Arab world, Shia's will become marginalized. But in countries like Turkey and Pakistan, who have significant Shia or Shia leaning population, there has to be accommodation between two sides. Also the presence of Iran and Iraq in the middle of Turkey and Pakistan, will force both Turkey and Pakistan (and Afghanistan) to not go for any overt anti Shia line, but all others can freely engage in a more drastic anti Shia stance, as the Shia will not be able to destabilize other Muslim countries, whether they are in the east, like Bangladesh, Indonesia or Malaysia or in the West like Arab League.
 
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Sunni's need to unite first and it is only after that Sunni Muslims can consider any reconciliation effort with Shia's. It sounds like sectarian talk, but Shia's action and strategy forces the Sunni side into this situation.

It doesn't sound like sectarian talk, it IS sectarian talk.As expected.
 
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