SAC FC-31 Stealth Fighter: News & Discussions

[UKBengali]

^^ I stopped reading after it said that the J-10s tech is 40-45 years behind the best US fighters.

So a F-4 can take on a J-10!!!!!!


Please carry on entertaining us with your posts.

 

[Akasa]

So J-31 is essentially a precursor to 4.5 gen jets and not a true frontline air-dominance jet like
FGFA or F-22.

Lemme me explain to you something - gone are the days when a jet has a rely on another to achieve
upper hand in battle. The IAF mentality regarding these matter is quite different from that of PAF
or PLAAF.

There is nothing that 4.5 gen jets you're talking about can do against an airspace dominated by PAKFAs,
which the J-31s will fail to overcome in the first place. and 2ndly, do you think IAF doesn't have
4.5 gen planes or what? Oh boy we're getting 300 MKIs and >200 Rafales and ~150 Tejas variants or
so performing different roles.

Each plane in IAF can fight its own war. its better not to waste money on a jet that would be helpless
without support of 4.5 gen jets, FGFAs can fight their own war, while MKIs, Rafales etc. concentrate
on the background duties. The 5th gen plane is one thats LEADS the air campiagns, not one that
sits behind 4.5 gen jets to fight its war.

As i have explained above, J-31 deployment in a battlefield involving hostile PAKFA/FGFA will be
counter-productive.

The J-31 is a spearhead, meaning that in combat it opens the door (in military terms by destroying enemy air defenses) for other planes to go in and do the striking. The J-31 is a 5th generation jet, so I don't know what you mean by "precursor to 4.5 generation". The PAK FA is not going to be produced in such a number that allows it to dominate the skies continuously. If it is, then that means even more J-31 is going to be produced due to its faster manufacturing. I also can safely say that, with the current development and testing, the J-31 is going to be an all-round fighter with capabilities matching or close to the T-50. So if a PAK FA manages to miraculously break through enemy air defenses, it is going to face a lot more J-31s that have more or less the same capability.

 

[Akasa]

Maybe for F-35 which is less draggy than J-20, and has higher TWR.

You're being a fool to say T-50 doesn't have stealth and supermaneuverability. PAKFA is the most
maneuevrable jet fighter out there.

Id rather stick to my source rather than dillude myself with your magazine
theory.

In terms of aerodynamics, the F-35 is nowhere near comparable to the J-20. The J-20 incorporates delta wing design, reduces drag, as well as platform alignment and canards that offer maneuverability. The PAK FA is not the most maneuverable. For one, its thrust to weight ratio won't be as high as the J-20 and its Flanker-derived airframe simply won't achieve the same agility as the J-10 based airframe of the J-20 as seen during mock combat between PLAAF Flankers and J-10s. I'm curious to what your source is. The T-50 lacks DSI, jagged saw tooth edges, platform alignment, airframe consistency, single piece canopy, that is required to build a VLO design.

 

[Akasa]

While you think and dillude yourself that PAKFA lacks the 2 "S". You dont realise that J-31 is lacking the others,

the only "S" J-31 completes thus far is stealth. even that is not as good as the comparable F-35 becoz
of many wing-form surface discontinuties.

The horizontal stabs should be blending into the trailing edge of the main wings
and not supposed to stick out like that, like an F-16 or F/A-18. J-20's canards
have the same problem - surface discontinuity.

Chinese jets stealth is not fully up to the mark either.

The J-31, for one, uses a F-22 style airframe consistent design, as well as DSI, platform alignemtn, all of which are lacking on both the F-35 and T-50. While both the J-31 and T-50 will incorporate AESA radar and 5th generation avionics, the T-50 will be at a disadvantage during a shootout due to its massive RCS; which means that the the only "S" that the J-31 might be lacking in is its thrust to weight ratio, but with the new WS-13G engines and composites, that won't be a problem.

 

[Akasa]

Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.

1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
to 6 countries thus far.

2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
more capable, despite the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.

and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.

Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum

please read the above article^^.

J-10's tech is 40-45 yrs behind that of US' best fighters, the likes of which F-35 JSF they've put on the
global market.

so stop dilluding yourself with the nonsense fed to you by chinese cover-up bridage, and instead know
the facts that chinese jets are not competitive at the global stage the way American, European or Russian
jets are.

Funny thing is, the WS-10 is already ready. It's been in service with all of the J-11Bs.

If the J-10 is 40-45 years behind US's best fighters, then that implies that the J-10 would made its maiden flight on March 23, 2033. Oops, seems that your time machine didn't get the patent.

 

[applesauce]

Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.

1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
to 6 countries thus far.

2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
more capable, despite the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.

and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.

pakistan certainly has choice but chooses chinese jets and they do just fine, as do others like egypt which was firmly aligned with american yet bought chinese jets

Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum

please read the above article^^.

J-10's tech is 40-45 yrs behind that of US' best fighters, the likes of which F-35 JSF they've put on the
global market.

so stop dilluding yourself with the nonsense fed to you by chinese cover-up bridage, and instead know
the facts that chinese jets are not competitive at the global stage the way American, European or Russian
jets are.

j-10 never was meant to face f-35, such jobs falls on j-20/project 31

lol **checks the web site u list**

hahaha some fan boy made web site(of course u would use that as source lol) that makes all kinds of claims without backing anything up

quote "After a lot of reverse engineering and a few prototype crashes" end quote

haha not even gonna touch the LAVI clone claim, one of the things AVIC parades around is that j-10 development had no crashes but rumor persists for no reason but of course to you the fan boys word is law while the chinese only ever lie.

also half the supposed references on that site doesn't even work(or it links to an ad lol) the 2 that does only show basic info about the j-10 and mig-29(hurr durr we need reference that j-10 has 2 wings? lol) and in no way proves any of the lies fan boys like you posts

 

[Gessler]

The J-31 is a spearhead, meaning that in combat it opens the door (in military terms by destroying enemy air defenses) for other planes to go in and do the striking. The J-31 is a 5th generation jet, so I don't know what you mean by "precursor to 4.5 generation". The PAK FA is not going to be produced in such a number that allows it to dominate the skies continuously. If it is, then that means even more J-31 is going to be produced due to its faster manufacturing. I also can safely say that, with the current development and testing, the J-31 is going to be an all-round fighter with capabilities matching or close to the T-50. So if a PAK FA manages to miraculously break through enemy air defenses, it is going to face a lot more J-31s that have more or less the same capability.

J-31 lacks the firepower to spearhead an operation. while PAKFA has it and much more.

 

[Ammyy]

pakistan certainly has choice but chooses chinese jets and they do just fine, as do others like egypt which was firmly aligned with american yet bought chinese jets

No they dnt have any choice other then China..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/52860-jf-17-french-avionics-deal-hold-cancelled.html

 

[Gessler]

In terms of aerodynamics, the F-35 is nowhere near comparable to the J-20. The J-20 incorporates delta wing design, reduces drag, as well as platform alignment and canards that offer maneuverability. The PAK FA is not the most maneuverable. For one, its thrust to weight ratio won't be as high as the J-20 and its Flanker-derived airframe simply won't achieve the same agility as the J-10 based airframe of the J-20 as seen during mock combat between PLAAF Flankers and J-10s. I'm curious to what your source is. The T-50 lacks DSI, jagged saw tooth edges, platform alignment, airframe consistency, single piece canopy, that is required to build a VLO design.

For one, you have been deeply dilluded by fanboys. The PAKFA will get the new Saturn "Type-30" engines with 176kN thrust each (read the article i posted in the PAKFA sticky thread in Indian Defence section), and 2) J-20's airframe cross-sections are far bulkier and when j-20 maneuvers, the canards will have to move and this also increases drag. PAKFA's airframe is the most aerodynamic one ive seen thus far and you are wrong to say J-20's TWR will be higher than PAKFA, how exactly? J-20 for one weighs more than PAKFA, and secondly ido its engines have thrust more than 176kn?? that point is wrong. PAKFA has higher TWR than j-20 infact

you are also wrong to say j-10 is more agile than flanker. it isn't. thats just some purposely-created hogwash to promote indigenous j-10 against russian flankers. almost all mock combat missions in the world are so constructed to achieve the desired result, in such mock combat, F-35s managed to track and jam F-22's radar and go for the kill after blidning the raptor with jamming. but do you think its gonna be just as easy in real war? nope, thats a way to promote the open-export of f-35, becoz the f-22 is banned for export anyway.

same applies for j-10 v/s flanker. constructed mock combat.

The russians have decided to concentrate on maneuverabillity and performance first and get down to stealth-optimisation later. either way, the finished FGFA for IAF wil have everything there is to offer.

J-10's thrust-to-weight ratio is infact lesser than that of MIG-29, forget Flanker.

 

[Gessler]

The J-31, for one, uses a F-22 style airframe consistent design, as well as DSI, platform alignemtn, all of which are lacking on both the F-35 and T-50. While both the J-31 and T-50 will incorporate AESA radar and 5th generation avionics, the T-50 will be at a disadvantage during a shootout due to its massive RCS; which means that the the only "S" that the J-31 might be lacking in is its thrust to weight ratio, but with the new WS-13G engines and composites, that won't be a problem.

J-31's airframe does not have complete surface continuity. There are massive gaps between the wings and the stabilisers in the rear. F-22 without DSI is still better than F-35 which has DSI.

FGFA will have the N-050 AESA with upto 2,000 T/R modules, it would be the most powerful fighter-based radar developed so far, in addition to wing-mounted L-band radars (which can detect VLO targets even F-22), and rear-looking radars for aft-area surveillance, its impossible to sneak upto PAKFA without alerting it.

same cannot be said in regard to J-31/20.

you'll see that in real combat, J-31 will be forced to carry external weapons which will increase 1) RCS , and 2) drag. But PAKFA with only internal weapons, can sustain the same RCS level (without increasing it) while at the same time, outgunning J-31 with twice the firepower.

If J-31 uses external weapons, its RCS will become comparable to that of EF Typhoon in clean load and PAKFA will find it easy to detect J-31 with its powerful radars, while at the other hand if J-31 sticks with internal weapons, it would be outgunned by PAKFA and will never be able to achieve air superiority in a given battlefield.

read the article i have posted in the previous page regarding china's engine developments. The WS-13 is not gonna be avaiable anytime soon while PAKFA's 176kN Type-30 engines will be ready 2014.

and btw, TW ratio does not account as an S

The S are -

stealth
supermaneuverability
supercruise
sensor-fusion
short-take off (later add-on)

PAKFA has all those Ss, except stealth which it has only fulfilled 50% only thus far.

 

[Gessler]

pakistan certainly has choice but chooses chinese jets and they do just fine, as do others like egypt which was firmly aligned with american yet bought chinese jets



j-10 never was meant to face f-35, such jobs falls on j-20/project 31

lol **checks the web site u list**

hahaha some fan boy made web site(of course u would use that as source lol) that makes all kinds of claims without backing anything up

quote "After a lot of reverse engineering and a few prototype crashes" end quote

haha not even gonna touch the LAVI clone claim, one of the things AVIC parades around is that j-10 development had no crashes but rumor persists for no reason but of course to you the fan boys word is law while the chinese only ever lie.

also half the supposed references on that site doesn't even work(or it links to an ad lol) the 2 that does only show basic info about the j-10 and mig-29(hurr durr we need reference that j-10 has 2 wings? lol) and in no way proves any of the lies fan boys like you posts

AVIC is a pathetic liar.

China confirms death of pilot in J-10 crash

Col. Xie Fengliang died in J-10 crash

and here is AVIC trying to save its face -
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...gPwbmWNnZtysYaLHA&sig2=05GpLUq-dmqPLcy9o4P2Kw

Rest of your post is nonsense.

 

[Gessler]

Funny thing is, the WS-10 is already ready. It's been in service with all of the J-11Bs.

If the J-10 is 40-45 years behind US's best fighters, then that implies that the J-10 would made its maiden flight on March 23, 2033. Oops, seems that your time machine didn't get the patent.

Then why is China still placing massive orders for AL-31FN engines from Russia?

Chinese AL-31F orders keep Russian engine maker busy

China may now have ordered more than 250 AL31FNs for the J-10, which suggests that confidence in the indigenous WS10A turbofan to power the single-engine fighter might not be as high as previously indicated.

I dont mean literal time, I mean how many years behind the F-35 JSF's and F-22's tech the J-10 is.
The F-16 made its flight in late 70s. And J-10A is only comparable to that as yet. Maybe the F-16C Block-30
at most but nothing more than that.

and besides, J-10B is a non-production aircraft meant only for testing tech which would later go on
J-20/31. The J-10A is only J-10 version in active combat duty and all J-10A have only russian engines.

^^ I stopped reading after it said that the J-10s tech is 40-45 years behind the best US fighters.

So a F-4 can take on a J-10!!!!!!


Please carry on entertaining us with your posts.

read my reply to sinosoldier. your brain seems to be the size of a half-peanut.

 

[Viper0011.]

Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.

1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
to 6 countries thus far.

2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
more capable, despite the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.

and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.

Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum

Ok, you sound like a desperate person trying to make some point that's everything but clear. None of the stuff you are saying has facts on it. The 'article' you've given here, is poorly written with personal stuff in there that even a Sophomore in college of journalism wouldn't write as it shows bias towards Pakistan and China.

Now, when you say 'FC-10 lost to Mig 29', it is contractual negotiations. Just like F-16 and F-18 lost to Rafale in India's case. Does that mean the F-16 and F-18 are 45 year old tech and the Rafale can fry them in a pan in broad day light??? F-16 and F-18 are one of the most combat proven systems out there. The answer is, India chose what IT thought was meeting its requirements. Its a package deal. The 'combat proven', the 'latest avionics' and the 'cost', etc are not separate consideration factors.

Similarly, whatever country you are referring to, did JUST that. Nowhere does it tell me that one plane was Inferior to the other in a fight or in capability. Mig 29 is a twin engine plane so it WILL lift more weapons and have more thrust to weight ratio and possibly a bigger radar....that's a given. But where does it say that FC-20 lost out because it was a cheaper, inferior plane capability wise and in a BVR and a Dog fight, it lost terribly to Mig 29. The Chinese have been running this plane against their SU-27's and Su-30's for over 5 years now. Pakistanis have flown their jets against it too and there have been constant modifications as a result...if it can handle SU-30....I would imagine it can handle a Mig 29. Please post FACTS. Not emotional and personal bias!!

 

[Gessler]

Ok, you sound like a desperate person trying to make some point that's everything but clear. None of the stuff you are saying has facts on it. The 'article' you've given here, is poorly written with personal stuff in there that even a Sophomore in college of journalism wouldn't write as it shows bias towards Pakistan and China.

Now, when you say 'FC-10 lost to Mig 29', it is contractual negotiations. Just like F-16 and F-18 lost to Rafale in India's case. Does that mean the F-16 and F-18 are 45 year old tech and the Rafale can fry them in a pan in broad day light??? F-16 and F-18 are one of the most combat proven systems out there. The answer is, India chose what IT thought was meeting its requirements. Its a package deal. The 'combat proven', the 'latest avionics' and the 'cost', etc are not separate consideration factors.

Similarly, whatever country you are referring to, did JUST that. Nowhere does it tell me that one plane was Inferior to the other in a fight or in capability. Mig 29 is a twin engine plane so it WILL lift more weapons and have more thrust to weight ratio and possibly a bigger radar....that's a given. But where does it say that FC-20 lost out because it was a cheaper, inferior plane capability wise and in a BVR and a Dog fight, it lost terribly to Mig 29. The Chinese have been running this plane against their SU-27's and Su-30's for over 5 years now. Pakistanis have flown their jets against it too and there have been constant modifications as a result...if it can handle SU-30....I would imagine it can handle a Mig 29. Please post FACTS. Not emotional and personal bias!!

If the chinese so desire, they'll stage a mock combat exercise where J-10 will shoot down 100 F-22s
with no lossess of its own. and fanboys like you believe it like anything else.

I didn't say J-10 was 40-45 yr old tech, i said that J-10A was 40-45 yrs behind the F-35's and F-22's tech, if you
have any doubts regarding what i said, go back and read it all over again. case in point everyone
knows US tech is 20 yrs ahead of the rest of the world.

The f-22 raptor flew 15 yrs ago, at that time US had its own working AESA radar, they're own supercrusing
engines, and everything else. J-20 flew last year and only post-2015 will it get a working AESA and supercruising
engine. So technically china is running ~20 yrs behind US. And J-10A flew 14 yrs ago. At that time J-10A
was only comparable to F-16A which flew 38 yrs ago.

---

I said when a bangla member ranted that china refuses to sell j-10 due to fear of tech-leaks. then i said
that the tech offered by J-10A was 40 yrs behind the west, whilst saying J-10A is comparable to F-16A.

Chinese member said that if what i said was true, J-10 should have flown in 2033. But what he doesn't
realise is that IF j-10's tech is of today, then of what time does the tech of F-22 Raptor belong??

Im not comparing year-on-year, im comparing the technologies backwardness/advancement of jets
here. But the chinese member misunderstood me and said that 2033 thing. By his claim, J-10A is 15 years
ahead of F-22! How believable is that?

The US put on global market the F-35 many years ago and when will china be able to put the same
level of tech on the global market?

---

as of the myanmarese selection, they must have thought mig-29 is better than j-10 (a correct assessment)
and hence bought it. I never said j-10 can't handle mig-29. they are very comparable, but like i said above,
mig-29 can maneuever better than j-10, it also has higher TW ratio than j-10.

 

[Viper0011.]

If the chinese so desire, they'll stage a mock combat exercise where J-10 will shoot down 100 F-22s
with no lossess of its own. and fanboys like you believe it like anything else.

I didn't say J-10 was 40-45 yr old tech, i said that J-10A was 40-45 yrs behind the F-35's and F-22's tech, if you
have any doubts regarding what i said, go back and read it all over again. case in point everyone
knows US tech is 20 yrs ahead of the rest of the world.

You are doing the same thing again. Defending your biased points that are unverifiable. Let me give you some pieces of advise:
1: The FIRST few lines out of the whole story you wrote....shows everyone that you are biased from the beginning. Thus, the rest is invalid also.
2: Comparing to F-35 and F-22, even Rafale and EFT are about 2-3 decades old. Both of these European planes started the design in early 90's. And this is almost 2013. There is NO comparison between FC-20, Rafale, JFT, EFT, F-16 and then F-35 and F-22. Even J-20 and J-31 and PakFa DON'T have any comparison (with the exception of 'some' stealthy features). That's the reality.
Now the fact that Chinese will create mocked fights...are you crazy??? The Janes and other independent organizations don't buy pre-staged data. They EVALUATE the weapons system on many standard dimensions including flight evaluations. You sound silly saying this stuff. A country may make a decision to put their security in the hands of FC-20 or Rafale or SU-30....if the staged fights is what gets sold.....you just put your country's defense in the hands of everyone!!! Think how serious these things are before just putting crap like this out there. Whatever happened to quality discussions on this forums. I am seriously thinking about leaving here as the quality's just down the drain on almost every thread.