SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Beast]

10000+ hours? The lifespan of WS-10H is on par with Russian AL-31F.

AL-31F is only 4000hrs.

Otherwise PAF would have been turning cartwheels and replacing the RD series with the WS13 series. The current MTBO is less than RD series. However, it is logical to assume you have achieved 60-80 % reliability and MTBO to warrant change of engines. The moment your reliability and engine life approaches RD series you will have PAF switching over to WS13.

Nothing to do with MTBO but rather the cost and disruptive effect if switch to Chinese engine for JF-17.

Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials

Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials | IHS Jane's 360 Air Platforms Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly 18 November 2015 A Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder making the type's first...

defence.pk

"What does this tell you?" asked one programme officer rhetorically. "If the situation was as it has been portrayed at times - that we are just utilising the RD-93 as a temporary solution until the Chinese can 'save' us with their own new engine - then we would not be expending the resources to set up this overhaul base. For us, changing to another engine would not make any sense and would be disruptive and cause a huge expense for the JF-17 programme."

 

[GiantPanda]

AL-31F is only 4000hrs.


Nothing to do with MTBO but rather the cost and disruptive effect if switch to Chinese engine for JF-17.

Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials

Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials | IHS Jane's 360 Air Platforms Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly 18 November 2015 A Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder making the type's first...

defence.pk

"What does this tell you?" asked one programme officer rhetorically. "If the situation was as it has been portrayed at times - that we are just utilising the RD-93 as a temporary solution until the Chinese can 'save' us with their own new engine - then we would not be expending the resources to set up this overhaul base. For us, changing to another engine would not make any sense and would be disruptive and cause a huge expense for the JF-17 programme."

Exactly, Argentina is asking for JF-17 production lines with WS-13.

And China has created a WS-13E mass production line in 2021 even though no current frontline Chinese fighter uses a medium engine.

That production line is an hard evidence of the confidence in the engine type for the J-35, the FC-31 and new JF-17 variants and blocks coming up. This is not just words but putting real infrastructure behind the WS-13.

 

[renhai]

10,000+ hours is quite a bold claim. One I don't think Chinese members on pdf I've asked have told me.

10000+ hours? The lifespan of WS-10H is on par with Russian AL-31F.

bro. Engine life is mainly affected by material technology. Look at how much Russian material technology lags behind China.

I know that many countries cannot understand how "materials" affect "modern technology" Because many countries believe that "materials" are very basic and low-end things.... But I'm sorry to tell you. If your material technology is backward. You can hardly make any high-tech products.

The short life of the Russian engine is mainly because the material technology of Russia is more backward than that of India.

"Material determines longevity. The foundation determines the destiny". Sadly many countries only see tall buildings. But you can't see the foundations hidden deep in the ground...

 

[That Guy]

bro. Engine life is mainly affected by material technology. Look at how much Russian material technology lags behind China.

I know that many countries cannot understand how "materials" affect "modern technology" Because many countries believe that "materials" are very basic and low-end things.... But I'm sorry to tell you. If your material technology is backward. You can hardly make any high-tech products.

The short life of the Russian engine is mainly because the material technology of Russia is more backward than that of India.

"Material determines longevity. The foundation determines the destiny". Sadly many countries only see tall buildings. But you can't see the foundations hidden deep in the ground...

Have you heard of the Dunning-Krueger effect?

Just asking for no particular reason.

 

[renhai]

Have you heard of the Dunning-Krueger effect?

Just asking for no particular reason.

You know all the effects in the world. You know how to build tall buildings..... But you don't have a foundation in materials engineering. You don't even want to learn any basic engineering. Do you think it's a waste of time?

 

[That Guy]

You know all the effects in the world. You know how to build tall buildings..... But you don't have a foundation in materials engineering. You don't even want to learn any basic engineering. Do you think it's a waste of time?

Sure, bro. You go ahead and assume everything on your own and how you're the smartest person ever.

 

[renhai]

Sure, bro. You go ahead and assume everything on your own and how you're the smartest person ever.

bro. I don't have that idea. Just to remind you to pay attention to basic engineering. If you think the base material is not important. Please ignore me.

 

[That Guy]

bro. I don't have that idea. Just to remind you to pay attention to basic engineering. If you think the base material is not important. Please ignore me.

YOU assumed that about me, I never mentioned the base material. I'm gonna now ignore you because you're clearly smarter than the entire world and I'm clearly not worthy enough to even look at you, let alone talk to you.

 

[LeGenD]

AL-31F is only 4000hrs.

4000 hours only?

AL-31F lifespan = 900 hours
WS-10A lifespan = 2000 hours
RD-93 lifespan = 2200 hours
AL-31FP lifespan = 3000 hours
AL-31FM1 lifespan = 4000 hours
AL-41F1A lifespan = 4000 hours

Chinese Col. Li Jie disclosed that WS-10H has lifespan on par with AL-31F. I am assuming one of the improved AL-31F variants in this case.

Nothing to sneeze at.

References

Lyulka AL-31 / Saturn AL-31 / UMPO 117

The Saturn AL-31 is a family of military turbofan engines. It was developed by Lyulka, later NPO Saturn, of the Soviet Union, originally for the Sukhoi Su-27 air superiority fighter. It produces a total thrust of 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the...

www.all-aero.com

China takes major milestone in military turbojets

After 35 years of effort, the Chinese aeronautical industry has finally managed to develop a sufficiently reliable and efficient version of its turbojet engine.

www.meta-defense.fr

https://inf.news/en/news/7cd9d098f5e1456d9d6de3dea8d9690e.html

 

[credence]

You guys either are not understanding the issue or intentionally skirting round it which is intellectual dishonesty.
SPELLING IT OUT AGAIN IN PLAIN ENGLISH.
NO OFFICIAL FIGURES NO COMPARISON. NO COMPARISON --- YOUR CLAIM OR ANYBODY ELSE'S CLAIM IS WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE AND THEREFORE VALUELESS.
We are your friends but won't believe any cow dung you serve us, telling us it is latest culinary delight. This remains the biggest problem with Chinese products. Even on the radars there are no figures on MTBF. No figures on shelf lives of your missiles. So your claim for 10k hrs engine life is cow dung. Otherwise PAF would have been turning cartwheels and replacing the RD series with the WS13 series. The current MTBO is less than RD series. However, it is logical to assume you have achieved 60-80 % reliability and MTBO to warrant change of engines. The moment your reliability and engine life approaches RD series you will have PAF switching over to WS13.
A

I don't know about WS13, what we discussed was about WS10 series for heavy fighters like J10 and J20. WS10 series are already mature. There are many variants tailored for different planes.

4000 hours only?

AL-31F lifespan = 900 hours
WS-10A lifespan = 2000 hours
RD-93 lifespan = 2200 hours
AL-31FP lifespan = 3000 hours
AL-31FM1 lifespan = 4000 hours
AL-41F1A lifespan = 4000 hours

Chinese Col. Li Jie disclosed that WS-10H has lifespan on par with AL-31F. I am assuming one of the improved AL-31F variants in this case.

Nothing to sneeze at.

References

Lyulka AL-31 / Saturn AL-31 / UMPO 117

The Saturn AL-31 is a family of military turbofan engines. It was developed by Lyulka, later NPO Saturn, of the Soviet Union, originally for the Sukhoi Su-27 air superiority fighter. It produces a total thrust of 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the...

www.all-aero.com

China takes major milestone in military turbojets

After 35 years of effort, the Chinese aeronautical industry has finally managed to develop a sufficiently reliable and efficient version of its turbojet engine.

www.meta-defense.fr

https://inf.news/en/news/7cd9d098f5e1456d9d6de3dea8d9690e.html

What's WS-10H? I have never heard of it. WS-10A was gone. It's just the initial version which was not mature. Now China uses WS-10B for J10, J16, and WS-10C for J20, which has 14.6 ton power, i.e. 91% of US F119 power. And the binary vector thrust version WS10 is also available now for J20. WS-15 2nd design is under development (first design was overturned). WS-15 will have even higher power.

 

[LeGenD]

I don't know about WS13, what we discussed was about WS10 series for heavy fighters like J10 and J20. WS10 series are already mature. There are many variants tailored for different planes.

What's WS-10H? I have never heard of it. WS-10A was gone. It's just the initial version which was not mature. Now China uses WS-10B for J10, J16, and WS-10C for J20, which has 14.6 ton power, i.e. 91% of US F119 power. And the binary vector thrust version WS10 is also available now for J20. WS-15 2nd design is under development (first design was overturned). WS-15 will have even higher power.

WS-10 engine has 7 variants equipped in 5 fighters including J-20

Introduction to seven variants of WS-10 engine being equipped in China's five types of fighters, including J-11, J-16, J-10C, J-15, J-20.

www.china-arms.com

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Shenyang J-35(J-31) 5th Generation Carrier Borne Stealth Aircraft. Look like J-35 equip with 2D Thrust Vectoring!

 

[credence]

WS-10 engine has 7 variants equipped in 5 fighters including J-20

Introduction to seven variants of WS-10 engine being equipped in China's five types of fighters, including J-11, J-16, J-10C, J-15, J-20.

www.china-arms.com

I see. So WS-10H is the variant for carrier-based J15. H is Hai which is sea in Chinese language. This shows that WS-10 series are already mature, lift hours should not be an issue any more.

 

[MastanKhan]

I see. So WS-10H is the variant for carrier-based J15. H is Hai which is sea in Chinese language. This shows that WS-10 series are already mature, lift hours should not be an issue any more.

Hi,

The word I would use is a " FUNCTIONAL ENGINE "---which means that it meets & exceeds the minimal criteria of power---reliability--- serviceability & life span of the engine---.

 

[Deino]

Shenyang J-35(J-31) 5th Generation Carrier Borne Stealth Aircraft. Look like J-35 equip with 2D Thrust Vectoring!
View attachment 902941

Nope ... it is a well known image of one of the first two prototypes and almost too blurry to identify anything. but it surely has no 2D nozzle: