SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[araz]

No I have no opinion on the j31. Having said that one has to ask why the J31 is being designed and is it export specific. If its export specific what tech will it bring to PAF that can neutralise the enemy threat. Additionally why are we not in the Turkish fighter program? They have offered it on a plate and we are still messing about.
Let's hope the future is good for Pakistan and its airforce but brother re j31 ... hard for me to say

J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others. What PAF was hoping was the Chinese will develop it along with the J35 as their Naval fighter. However currently the situation remains unknown. When the picture becomes clearer PAF will make an assessment . When I mentioned the JFT, what I meant was that the news in our press from our people ( PAF) was that the Chinese have committed to 250 units. Whether this was true or not can be debated. However that did not come about. The PAF NOW will not commit to a programme that does not have Chinese custom.
The Ex PAF officers have repeatedly mentioned as a prospect in the 30s when PAF goes lòoming for 5th generation fighter. At that time it will compare this against the TFX whichever one is the better for it. The problem qith the TFX remains its engine which might have restrictions. How much progress the Turkish brothers make in the next 8-10 years remains to be seen and whether they have independence over the onwards selling of such engines remains to be seen. Irrespective, I think PAF will bide its time till the early/mid 30s.

 

[tphuang]

On J-35, they very recently said the project has 3 variants. Most people guessed it's going to be naval, land and export. The land and export version should be quite similar. They will probably purchase at least 500 naval variant units. But this point, my assumption is that the Saudis are going to be a major customer here and may even be funding the export variant. J-35 itself is likely to join service in 2024/2025 so it will be a mature platform by 2030s. I think countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE will want a 5th gen aircraft before the end of this decade. My guess is that they will be capable of producing 70 of these a year by then. The question is whether or not PLAAF will bring in the land based version. That's really dependent on 6th gen progress and the manned/unmanned force mix. If CAC's 6th gen project is in service by early 2030s, then they will probably stop j-20 production at 1000 aircraft and will need quite a few land version to replace the departing J-10/flankers. But overall, I would be surprised if they don't order some land base variant, since it's hard to convince other countries to buy it if PLAAF itself doesn't operate it.

But let's be clear here. China does not need foreign money to complete the project.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yet no other airforce on the planet has designed developed and manufactured a fighter aircraft. Yes with a partner but how many partner nations does the f35 have? The typhoon, the tornado, jaguar etc etc

Hi,

Air forces are not designed to manufacture their own aircraft---/ They would try to hide their blunders and incompetence---.

Now if Masankahn's factory manufactured a fighte aircraft then Paf would test it---try to rip it apart---if it come thru right---it will praise it---otherwise---it will go to the sh-it can.

But if the Paf manufactured it---then who would know what is the truth and what is not---.

 

[credence]

J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others. What PAF was hoping was the Chinese will develop it along with the J35 as their Naval fighter. However currently the situation remains unknown. When the picture becomes clearer PAF will make an assessment . When I mentioned the JFT, what I meant was that the news in our press from our people ( PAF) was that the Chinese have committed to 250 units. Whether this was true or not can be debated. However that did not come about. The PAF NOW will not commit to a programme that does not have Chinese custom.
The Ex PAF officers have repeatedly mentioned as a prospect in the 30s when PAF goes lòoming for 5th generation fighter. At that time it will compare this against the TFX whichever one is the better for it. The problem qith the TFX remains its engine which might have restrictions. How much progress the Turkish brothers make in the next 8-10 years remains to be seen and whether they have independence over the onwards selling of such engines remains to be seen. Irrespective, I think PAF will bide its time till the early/mid 30s.

No, Things had changed long time ago. J31/J35 no longer relied on external finance investment. Chinese Navy also put a lot of money on this program to get a stealthy for aircraft, which was renamed to J35. There will be two more variants for land base and export. Rumor says that Chinese air force will purchase around 500.

Fair enough. But what about the rest of my post. Are you suggesting PAF should go and buy the J31 despite the fact that PLAAF is not going to buy it? If so, please explain your reasons.
Kind regards
A

Your information is fake or wrong. Chinese Navy funded the carrier fighter J35 project, and Chinese Air Force will acquire 500 land variant J35.

 

[Trango Towers]

Hi,

Air forces are not designed to manufacture their own aircraft---/ They would try to hide their blunders and incompetence---.

Now if Masankahn's factory manufactured a fighte aircraft then Paf would test it---try to rip it apart---if it come thru right---it will praise it---otherwise---it will go to the sh-it can.

But if the Paf manufactured it---then who would know what is the truth and what is not---.

Hello,
True to some extent.
Alternative view.
An airforce designs an aircraft because they will fight in it. Who wants to fight in an aircraft that they will loses in. Additionally, you know very well PAF didn't work alone they worked with a very competent Chinese manufacturer who's know how was invaluable.
The combination of the two has made this a capable and potent light weight fighter.

J31 remains a dark horse. The Chinese have been looking for someone who can finance the programme. They have been touting it to the Middle East, PAF amongst others. What PAF was hoping was the Chinese will develop it along with the J35 as their Naval fighter. However currently the situation remains unknown. When the picture becomes clearer PAF will make an assessment . When I mentioned the JFT, what I meant was that the news in our press from our people ( PAF) was that the Chinese have committed to 250 units. Whether this was true or not can be debated. However that did not come about. The PAF NOW will not commit to a programme that does not have Chinese custom.
The Ex PAF officers have repeatedly mentioned as a prospect in the 30s when PAF goes lòoming for 5th generation fighter. At that time it will compare this against the TFX whichever one is the better for it. The problem qith the TFX remains its engine which might have restrictions. How much progress the Turkish brothers make in the next 8-10 years remains to be seen and whether they have independence over the onwards selling of such engines remains to be seen. Irrespective, I think PAF will bide its time till the early/mid 30s.

Agreed.
I still feel unless project AZam is a credible project we should jump on the TFX or j31 bus. We need the know how and investing in knowledge and manufacturing is a long term thing

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi all our senior and Chinese members should keep one thing in mind about j31/35 I believe it will be j35 all the development around j35 will go according to the Chinese Emals ACC to come on line so if we go by history of Chinese ACC good to go by 2025/26 this particular ACC can be online by that logic j35 will also be available by that time Indians will also either budge to USA for F35 or whatever else available from Russian side at that time
so I’m sure PAF will be able to get these birds accordingly now to mature a land version of j35 is not a big deal for as they are ready to export these stealth to $$ with money specially to countries which are not getting F35
as per the norms Pakistan always give their input to Chinese defence related development but without ready to or I should say without spending or having any money to input in that project latest scenario is J10 as in coming days Z10 helicopters
im sure senior members on this forum will be knowing something more & up to date info
thank you

 

[araz]

No, Things had changed long time ago. J31/J35 no longer relied on external finance investment. Chinese Navy also put a lot of money on this program to get a stealthy for aircraft, which was renamed to J35. There will be two more variants for land base and export. Rumor says that Chinese air force will purchase around 500.


Your information is fake or wrong. Chinese Navy funded the carrier fighter J35 project, and Chinese Air Force will acquire 500 land variant J35.

OK. My information might be false. Please present the roght information which is credible. What we need to understand is that credible information is hard to come by when it comes to chinese platforms. PAF has bought the J10 with WS10 but no one will give any numbers on the WS10s MTBO. So the Chinese brigade comes out en masse when we ask these question and accusations of false information/propaganda/misleading fly about. Just so we stop asking the pertinent questions. Meanwhile JFT runs on the RD 93s avoiding WS13 series despite protestations that the engine is now matured. One wondors why that is so, although the possibility of the setup of overhauling facilities for the RD93 at Kamra could be cited as one of the reasons. I think the logical answer is the gains in thrust ( if at all) are not worth the change.
I keep out of debates because I dont normally have much time to indulge in lengthy arguments. But still no one will give out simple information on Chinese engines/platforms. To give an example we have platforms ordered in late 60s (M3/5s) running and performing yet all the F7ps inducted in the 80s are gone and the pgs will go before the upgraded M3/5s go. Tells you something does it not!! But dare I say something against the Chinese platforms. Another example is a aimple question of what is the life of the J10 airframe. Can we compare it with the life of the F16s?
A

 

[credence]

OK. My information might be false. Please present the roght information which is credible. What we need to understand is that credible information is hard to come by when it comes to chinese platforms. PAF has bought the J10 with WS10 but no one will give any numbers on the WS10s MTBO. So the Chinese brigade comes out en masse when we ask these question and accusations of false information/propaganda/misleading fly about. Just so we stop asking the pertinent questions. Meanwhile JFT runs on the RD 93s avoiding WS13 series despite protestations that the engine is now matured. One wondors why that is so, although the possibility of the setup of overhauling facilities for the RD93 at Kamra could be cited as one of the reasons. I think the logical answer is the gains in thrust ( if at all) are not worth the change.
I keep out of debates because I dont normally have much time to indulge in lengthy arguments. But still no one will give out simple information on Chinese engines/platforms. To give an example we have platforms ordered in late 60s (M3/5s) running and performing yet all the F7ps inducted in the 80s are gone and the pgs will go before the upgraded M3/5s go. Tells you something does it not!! But dare I say something against the Chinese platforms. Another example is a aimple question of what is the life of the J10 airframe. Can we compare it with the life of the F16s?
A

Regarding your last question, properly no one can give you an answer. One thing that we are sure is that J10CP is not bad, otherwise PAF would not have inducted this bird.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The reason JF17 is still using the RD93 because it does what the aircraft needs---. It is reliable---it is capable---it is predictable---.

Predictability is the most important item in any weapon or weapon system---.

Paf now has over a decade & half experience with RD93---. It just simply cannot let go of this engine just like that---.

That was the dillema that the chinese had about that---if the Paf went for the RD93---it would stay with it for almost forever---.

The russians have not given any reason to pakistan to not use it---. The thrust of the machine is to the liking of the Paf---. It is to the liking of a couple of foreign buyers as well and others who are interested in it as well---.

Now for the J-10 CP---Paf starts with a capable chinese engine and will flow with it---.

 

[araz]

Regarding your last question, properly no one can give you an answer. One thing that we are sure is that J10CP is not bad, otherwise PAF would not have inducted this bird.

PAF BOUGHT F7Ps AS WELL. Do you mean to tell me they were not bad? This logic does not impress me.
So let me qualify that which you are avoiding.
PAF bought the Ps as it was desperate to maintain zquadron numbers due to the US embargo. It was not a particularly enticing plane but given our lack of choice and empty coffers it proved to be the sanest choice at the moment.
The PGs were however a vast improvement over the Ps. They could hold their own against any fighter in the point defence role. However, no BVR, shortlegged and only 5 HPs meant no significant role beyond point defence role.
The J10s are leagues above the other Chinese offerings. It signifies that the Chinese have really matured as an aviation giant. Most of the advantages are in electronics, radar and weaponry.More composite materials with reduction of RCS. However, compared to other 4.5 ++generation offerings, Rafale, EFT, Gripen, or the Block 70s..... where do we stand. With Radar, electronics and weaponry, in the ball park of the Western offerings if not better. However, it will lose out on engine life air frame life and maintainability of engine. Does that make it a better fighter than the otherWestern ones.......NO. However it will definitely stand tall and prove its deterence value in any arena.
The fact still remains, we cannot compare it with cold hard figures which the Chinese dont give out, which makes life really difficult for the number crunchers.
A

 

[Beast]

PAF has bought the J10 with WS10 but no one will give any numbers on the WS10s MTBO.

Dont be so impatient. PAF will soon reveal the WS-10 MTBO. PAF already reveal the max thrust of WS-10B as 29000 pounds.

 

[credence]

PAF BOUGHT F7Ps AS WELL. Do you mean to tell me they were not bad? This logic does not impress me.
So let me qualify that which you are avoiding.
PAF bought the Ps as it was desperate to maintain zquadron numbers due to the US embargo. It was not a particularly enticing plane but given our lack of choice and empty coffers it proved to be the sanest choice at the moment.
The PGs were however a vast improvement over the Ps. They could hold their own against any fighter in the point defence role. However, no BVR, shortlegged and only 5 HPs meant no significant role beyond point defence role.
The J10s are leagues above the other Chinese offerings. It signifies that the Chinese have really matured as an aviation giant. Most of the advantages are in electronics, radar and weaponry.More composite materials with reduction of RCS. However, compared to other 4.5 ++generation offerings, Rafale, EFT, Gripen, or the Block 70s..... where do we stand. With Radar, electronics and weaponry, in the ball park of the Western offerings if not better. However, it will lose out on engine life air frame life and maintainability of engine. Does that make it a better fighter than the otherWestern ones.......NO. However it will definitely stand tall and prove its deterence value in any arena.
The fact still remains, we cannot compare it with cold hard figures which the Chinese dont give out, which makes life really difficult for the number crunchers.
A

Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.

 

[That Guy]

Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.

10,000+ hours is quite a bold claim. One I don't think Chinese members on pdf I've asked have told me.

 

[LeGenD]

Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.

10000+ hours? The lifespan of WS-10H is on par with Russian AL-31F.

 

[araz]

Man, Chinese engine is evolving, your impression should also be evolving accordingly. In old days, China couldn't develop and produce anything. Now you accept that Chinese electronics, Radar is good. This is the same situation to Chinese engine. according to the latest news, China is retiring all Russian AL31 engines, the life of which is 3000 hours. The life cycle of Chinese W10 series has been improved to the quality of US engine, around 10000+ hours. I can't verify the data, but just remind that you should have an open mind and open eye, because things are changing very fast.

You guys either are not understanding the issue or intentionally skirting round it which is intellectual dishonesty.
SPELLING IT OUT AGAIN IN PLAIN ENGLISH.
NO OFFICIAL FIGURES NO COMPARISON. NO COMPARISON --- YOUR CLAIM OR ANYBODY ELSE'S CLAIM IS WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE AND THEREFORE VALUELESS.
We are your friends but won't believe any cow dung you serve us, telling us it is latest culinary delight. This remains the biggest problem with Chinese products. Even on the radars there are no figures on MTBF. No figures on shelf lives of your missiles. So your claim for 10k hrs engine life is cow dung. Otherwise PAF would have been turning cartwheels and replacing the RD series with the WS13 series. The current MTBO is less than RD series. However, it is logical to assume you have achieved 60-80 % reliability and MTBO to warrant change of engines. The moment your reliability and engine life approaches RD series you will have PAF switching over to WS13.
A