SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

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I heard that Turkey is planning to assemble a 5th Gen fighter by acquiring sub-systems from all over the world, including Engine, Air frame and stealth technology. The reason why Turkey invites Pak is because he wants to get help from China through Pak.
5th Gen fighter is really a very hard project. Considering Turkey's limited economic, technology, talents and Research and Industrial capability, without the help from outside, it's not optimistic about the fate of this project. Look, how India was/is so struggling in the 4th Gen Tejas. Advanced countries like Korea and Japan also got frustrated in their own 5th gen. Turkey had never designed even a 4th gen fighter, let alone 5th gen. It would be a long long long way to go.
Anyway, Pak would definitely get help from China on 5th Gen fighter, but not sure if Turkey will get involved.

 

[The Accountant]

Hi,

Only if it was in black or white---.

when a knowledgeable person says all good that you want to hear is fine---but when you hear what you don't like---then there is a problem with that person---.

Same is applied to learned members, when we agree to your opinions than its fine but if we dont then we are inexperienced and naive ... thats incorrect approach ...

You know in every soft skill trainings we are told that leadership starts from listening skills and understand others by controlling your own self beliefs and opinions only then a leader can make a team of energetic and high calibre individuals otherwise you would be ended up becoming a boss of bunch of yes man ...

What i am trying to say that senior memeber should have to look the bigger picture free from personnal bias otherwise if you are against one power group and not the others than probably you are part of other power group ... it appears that you are not against making power group but against those who are going against your power group ...

Dont we know that we have power group based on all languages and all provinces ? Then why condemning just one ? Because it is against your own personal power group ?

We have to raise ourselves above this in order to unify ourselves as a nation ...

As a senior member we look upto you guys to give us an image of division free Pakistan ... to motivate us to fight against these power groups irrespective of their community but if you condemn one and praise other than indirectly you are forcing us to side with power group of my community and start working against yours ...

 

[cabatli_53]

We can approach Turkey.

They have contributions in F-35 program.

Pakistan operates two origin of fighter jet from West and East. It is the diversification policy of Pakistani Airforce not to put all eggs into same basket to benefit the advancement of different origin fighters in crisis times. When Pakistani aircrafts approached to the end of operational time scale, I firstly thought that You would replace them with same logic under the same policy. In this aspect, I considered that F-16 fighters would be replaced with a Western origin fighters, while continuation of Jf-17 may be done over another Chinese origin new generation aircraft or newer blocks but;

Pakistan made a vital decision to have a 5th generation aircraft under the name of Azm. Pakistan wants freedom on next generation fighter and so my calculations have been collapsed. With project AZM, The aircraft Pakistani Airforce will operate by 2030’s will be provided with multi-role fighter which is going to be manufactured in Pakistani institutes. In this aspect, I believe Pakistan is searching JV and collaboration opportunity with similar countries having similar programs. In this aspect, Turkey’s Tf-X and Chinese J-31 will come into mind for likely rivals in 2020’s. I know the will of Turkish officials to collect brother states into such a large and strategic program so It is officially stated out that negotiations have been proceeding with a couple of states. It is even reported that a few state wants to join into development and joint-funding to have a place in Tf-x. The real impact will take effect in 2023 when Tf-X roll-out ceremony will be carried out in front of many delegation coming from friendly states and We may see the name of Pakistan on Tf-X fuselage. Azerbaijan is another country who officially requested to join into program.

 

[cabatli_53]

When Turkey's TF-X is ready, maybe 5.5th or 6th generation fighters of USA and China have been in service already...
And J-20 also can be exported at that time...

Turkey produces big scale strategic projects for not only meeting the requirement of Armed Forces but also improving the technological infrastructure and the number of experienced engineering army under the lights of domestic research and development activities. I mean continuation of programs are vital If you walk on this path with that logic. The country who completed to develop a 5th generation fighter, will certainly proceed to develop further variants. See Atak and Atak-2, Firtina and Firtina-2...etc The technological gap between advanced states motivate us to concentrate more over ambitious targets to catch up their efforts. If we consider US to be sole powerhouse of stealth aircraft tech who has successfully developed a matured/advanced 5th generation fighter for export markets at present, We can assume that from 2018 to 2030 won’t be a long time differences to pass into 6th generation fighters, so I don't suppose anyone out of US succeeds to reveal a full configuration 6th generation in such a short time period so I don’t think the gap will be such large in 2030’s.

 

[cabatli_53]

Some additional statements by Pakistani officials in the months following the former MoDP's statements:

“Importantly, joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey. Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.”​

November 2016, then Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. Gen (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais:

Source: Birol Tekince. “IDEAS serves as a platform to portray a positive and realistic image of Pakistan.” MSI Turkish Defence Review. November 2016. Issue. 31.

“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made,” and “We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.”

April 2017, then Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

Source: Bol Narratives (link)

No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement.

Alan Warnes

Source: Twitter
​

Granted, it doesn't outright say the PAF would commit to the TFX, but the TFX is in its early stages as well. If our top level officials are touting it directly or indirectly, then it might be more than just some minor work. The T129 and MILGEM are worth about $1bn and $1.5 bn, respectively, so a "flagship" project (the Secretary MoDP's words, not mine) should be worth more, right?

Within 1-2 years, Tf-X will pass into critical design/prototype production phase. According to TAI officials, The partnerships for the Tf-X will be more clear and trust of likely partners to the program will be improved. I think Partnership of Pakistan and Turkey for next generation aircraft program is more logical than any other alternative because We will learn many things under the umbrella of Tf-X/AZM program which is in its design phase. Turkey wants to establish a joint training and striking aircraft infrastructure containing three states and acting accordingly.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Within 1-2 years, Tf-X will pass into critical design/prototype production phase. According to TAI officials, The partnerships for the Tf-X will be more clear and trust of likely partners to the program will be improved. I think Partnership of Pakistan and Turkey for next generation aircraft program is more logical than any other alternative because We will learn many things under the umbrella of Tf-X/AZM program which is in its design phase. Turkey wants to establish a joint training and striking aircraft infrastructure containing three states and acting accordingly.

There is logic in your statement that Turkey wants to establish a joint training and strike aircraft infrastructure initially with 3 partner states but this number would increase gradually.

Over the years we have learned that as far as training is concerned these 3 states have been coordinating and facilitating each other with many MOU's being signed but no official agreement has ever been made public at-least.

Now getting back on the topic of TF-X / AZM. Many times in the past quoted that PAF should have acquired the design of single-engine TF-X specially after TuAF chose the multi-engine one. Both designs are similar and can be easily worked on simultaneously. This would have been similar to what F-15's and F-16's achieved back in the late 70's and early 80's.

The design chosen by Turkey is of an air superiority fighter as they were already procuring the F-35's which were multirole, whereas Pakistan was looking for a multirole design that could have been augmented by one or two squadrons of air superiority fighter bought directly. However with the restriction that might be forced upon F-35's this possibility seems more logical.

The issue on hand is how far has PAF gone in on J-31 or J-20 program. Things will be clearer once the JF-17 Block III is made public. If this aircraft has been heavily modified in its design then it is highly likely PAF would continue with it and try ways to use its design features in any 5th gen program.

 

[messiach]

The water&power crisis luming in our metropolitans incld karachi of today has its seeds sown 4 decades ago. Punjabi or sindhi administration only rose to absolute prominence post mid-90s when nasty shareefain created their power caucuses. Before mid-90s, it was all a relentless rule of untouchable power cuacus which dictated pakistans water&power generation, fuel&oils, borders&customs, ports&shipping. I once said to saeed mehdi, your family business of long is oil&gas, why would you allow hydro-electriks in this country? Wickedly smiling he said thats why we are all here. 'Bilkul Baap ka maal tha Pakistan'.

I hope this CJ can stay for another 20 yrs although I see his efforts as too little & way too late.

@The Accountant This country was created as federation of federating units powered by a legal framework as envisioned by the Qiad-e-Azam. We will survive as long as we remain within the order. We cannot survive & no country can survive by creating language & ethnic based power caucuses with unparallel omnipotent authority within the administration. Additionally, I do sincerely apologise, it may have hurt you in ways.

That is essentially a human issue and cannot be fixed overnight. Even in a well “integrated” society on the surface like the UK you will see it pop up

A gentleman who hailed from Ridoli in UP, graduate from Indian Naval academy and had his Pak Navy number in the early teens(12 or 13) and provided nav planning for Dwarka was
sidelined after he disagreed during 71 on operational decisions with one of these good ol boys group(Bhuttos flat and flabby ones) who were keen to keep decision making (to be interpreted as sitting around watching kemari burn while chugging drinks and commenting “what a lovely bonfire!”) and left as commodore.

Your experience is with one group, Ive lived in three provinces and everyone has black hands and feet with the stench of nepotism, racism and corruption all over.. be it a Punjabi or Pathan or whosoever.

But, kudos to those throughout the country who still fight and try to stave off such disasters to get things done.. they are a reason why we arent a vassal state or like Burma.

 

[The Accountant]

The water&power crisis luming in our metropolitans incld karachi of today has its seeds sown 4 decades ago. Punjabi or sindhi administration only rose to absolute prominence post mid-90s when nasty shareefain created their power caucuses. Before mid-90s, it was all a relentless rule of untouchable power cuacus which dictated pakistans water&power generation, fuel&oils, borders&customs, ports&shipping. I once said to saeed mehdi, your family business of long is oil&gas, why would you allow hydro-electriks in this country? Wickedly smiling he said thats why we are all here. 'Bilkul Baap ka maal tha Pakistan'.

I hope this CJ can stay for another 20 yrs although I see his efforts as too little & way too late.

@The Accountant This country was created as federation of federating units powered by a legal framework as envisioned by the Qiad-e-Azam. We will survive as long as we remain within the order. We cannot survive & no country can survive by creating language & ethnic based power caucuses with unparallel omnipotent authority within the administration. Additionally, I do sincerely apologise, it may have hurt you in ways.

Thanks for understanding.

The reason we have difference of opinion is i belong to a generation who has seen the political elites of 90s and we realize that this community based division has given us nothing but hatred .... my father also has opinion similar to yours but we need to pass this ... there is a reason our generation supports IK despite of the fact that he is pathan and most of us belongs to different ethinicity ...

We should keep our past differences aside and has to remove this community boundries and should work on building Pakistani nation ... we should appreciate the work of our elder generation but on the same time we should condemn the communal politics of our seniors ... which includes you and my father both ... only then we can unite and prosper ... i hope you understand ...

 

[HRK]

IK despite of the fact that he is pathan and most of us belongs to different nationality ...

IK despite of the fact that he is pathan and most of us belongs to different ethnicity

 

[chengdusudise]

SAC cant compete with CAC , i dont trust their ability to develope a awesome 5TH G Fighter, FC31 just is a mediocre 5th G figther. PLAAF AND navy all reject it,For PAF better to wait for CAC's light weight stealth fighter

 

[Kompromat]

SAC cant compete with CAC , i dont trust their ability to develope a awesome 5TH G Fighter, FC31 just is a mediocre 5th G figther. PLAAF AND navy all reject it,For PAF better to wait for CAC's light weight stealth fighter

Are they developing one?

 

[Trailer23]

SAC cant compete with CAC , i dont trust their ability to develope a awesome 5TH G Fighter, FC31 just is a mediocre 5th G figther. PLAAF AND navy all reject it,For PAF better to wait for CAC's light weight stealth fighter

I beg to differ...

The FC-31 is still trial phase. And with the new engines it might be getting in the near future - it just might be the Aircraft the Navy might consider.

As for the comparison with the J20 - I don't see anyone comparing the F-22 (raptor) with the F-35 (JSF).

 

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Rumors came that SAC has got the orders from Navy for J31. A new version of J31 is currently under development. It will match the timeline of type-003 carrier ship. This new bird will be equipped with two WS-19 engines.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Rumors came that SAC has got the orders from Navy for J31. A new version of J31 is currently under development. It will match the timeline of type-003 carrier ship. This new bird will be equipped with two WS-19 engines.

TVC?

 

[credence]

TVC?

TVC is definitely on the road map, because China has this technology. The research has been conducted for decades. But we won't see TVC in the first block of mass production.
SAC is currently very quiet about J31, because this bird is under modification to meet PLAN's requirements. PLAAF will also purchase some. This project is now survived. You will see.