SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar

The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.

In November 2016 the PAF told Jane's about the need to procure 30-40 fighters as an interim for the 2020s until the FGF came online. But at that time, the options given we're Su-35 and J-10.

 

[chengdusudise]

When Turkey's TF-X is ready, maybe 5.5th or 6th generation fighters of USA and China have been in service already...
And J-20 also can be exported at that time...

it will never be ready.they have a little GDP. a little goverment income. a little R&D expenditure. a little Industry output .all in all. a little country with almost no money no tech to deveope 5th G fighter.
except for keeping produce PPT and plastic model,there will be no more progress

 

[LKJ86]

it will never be ready.they have a little GDP. a little goverment income. a little R&D expenditure. a little Industry output .all in all. a little country with almost no money no tech to deveope 5th G fighter

At least, Turkey is very ambitious.

 

[serenity]

Europe can form group to build FGF easy. They have money, industry, experience and all the skills. Little assistance can be gotten from USA as well if they want it. Japan too if they want to spend the money and time. Korea is like Japan. They are much more capable of doing this than we think. Turkey got some smarts and some of the industry but economy will need years to recover if not many decades. FGF with such limited funding and hardly any reliable partners to help out with, it's close to impossible in real life but people want to dream. Let them do it. They all called China copycat, but all their PPT and plastic models are worse garbage then cheapest Chinese products and their designs are worse copies of F-22. We all laughed at them because they called us copycat now they reveal how shit they all are. Good. These shit people call chinese copycats but they fail to build even a lower standard of copy. They are worse than the worst Chinese hahahahahaha .

More time will reveal just how empty all their bullshit talk and bluff are. Like India with AMCA. It reminds me years ago Indians make fun of China's pollution. Reality is when they teased China, their pollution was already higher. Now it's already got attention of their western masters and shown to be MUCH worse than China's. This is reality. Not their bullshit internet talk. Will just be like their AMCA. They will produce cheap ugly F-22 copy that eventually they will reject themselves 20 times separately around year 2050. Then they will call China bad things even louder and how J-20 is Mig1.44 copy or J-20 is photoshop.

 

[SQ8]

I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar

The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.

Klimov would be open to it since their order books arent as filled as that for Saturn or Salyut.

I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar

The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.

Turkish MoU is more symbolic than concrete and based upon increasing cooperation in all sectors rather than Azm alone.

 

[dBSPL]

Just a little example, minimum of 3-4 million lines of code are written for the avionics systems of a current combat jets. When you want to buy this accumulation as ready, every system change on the aircraft, creates dependency on exporter.

Pakistan's only problem is not about India's air force inventory. At the same time need to establish a sustainable aviation industry. So sooner or later, Pakistan has to work with China or another country to design a 5th gen. jet from scratch.

The other issue is that, if Pakistan completes J-31 order with all of its Chinese subsystems(fastest supply) in this day, theoretically when the first operational fleet be ready? 10 years?

Klimov would be open to it since their order books arent as filled as that for Saturn or Salyut.


Turkish MoU is more symbolic than concrete and based upon increasing cooperation in all sectors rather than Azm alone.

As I understand it, Turkey's objectives rather than being commercial, They will trying to have the common aviation(and naval) infrastructure with Pakistan and Azerbaijan.

In this direction, we can have such a prediction for Turkey and Azerbaijan like that:
PAC Super Mushshak, primary trainer
Hurkus B, basic trainer
Hurjet, as a LIFT
PAC JF-17 B3 or Hurjet as low-operational-cost attack jet
TFX / AZM as a primary Interceptor

 

[MastanKhan]

I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar

The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.

Hi,

Pakistani kids and adults have no concept as to how difficult it is to manufacture an aircraft engine---.

It is so difficult that Germany had made a request to China to assist them in that technology for aircraft engine---.

Could anyone imagine that the giant automaker and industrial nation does not have the ability to manufacture a modern day aircraft engine---yet that is the truth---.

Absolutely bullseye sir.
Turkey has nothing no engine no prototype airframe

Hi,

And that is what I want to ask the fools on this board and fools in the air force---China has a built in model---a flying model---and it is more stealthier than anything other than the F35/F22/J20---and Turkey has nothing---.

So---we need to find from where is this deceit coming from---.

Why is the Paf so bent on sabotaging the safety of its motherland---.

 

[rambro]

Hi,

Pakistani kids and adults have no concept as to how difficult it is to manufacture an aircraft engine---.

It is so difficult that Germany had made a request to China to assist them in that technology for aircraft engine---.

Could anyone imagine that the giant automaker and industrial nation does not have the ability to manufacture a modern day aircraft engine---yet that is the truth---.



Hi,

And that is what I want to ask the fools on this board and fools in the air force---China has a built in model---a flying model---and it is more stealthier than anything other than the F35/F22/J20---and Turkey has nothing---.

So---we need to find from where is this deceit coming from---.

Why is the Paf so bent on sabotaging the safety of its motherland---.

Pak is more emotional hence will go with who scores higher on the BrotherMeter.
Not sure if i make sense there LOL.

 

[messiach]

Interesting. Lets wait for Ideas then. @Oscar @MastanKhan

In November 2016 the PAF told Jane's about the need to procure 30-40 fighters as an interim for the 2020s until the FGF came online. But at that time, the options given we're Su-35 and J-10.

 

[Thorough Pro]

I think PAF leadership has gone bonkers. Why?
Which other indigenous plane have they designed and successfully inducted before?
Before jumping to 5th generation fighter, why don't they start with a brand new design of Mushaq, then K8, then newer bigger version of Thunder? Once they achieve this only then they can/should take up the 5th Gen project. Starting with smaller plane (less investment, less risk) will help them asses their own capabilities and helping setup/attract private businesses.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi,

Pakistani kids and adults have no concept as to how difficult it is to manufacture an aircraft engine---.

It is so difficult that Germany had made a request to China to assist them in that technology for aircraft engine---.

Could anyone imagine that the giant automaker and industrial nation does not have the ability to manufacture a modern day aircraft engine---yet that is the truth---.



Hi,

And that is what I want to ask the fools on this board and fools in the air force---China has a built in model---a flying model---and it is more stealthier than anything other than the F35/F22/J20---and Turkey has nothing---.

So---we need to find from where is this deceit coming from---.

---.

Why is the Paf so bent on sabotaging the safety of its motherland

I can think of only one reason kickbacks.

 

[serenity]

FG is hard but not impossible. It is possible for Turkey to build it if they really dedicated everything. But this is unrealistic. It doesn't require them to have already done 3 gen then 4 gen then 4.5 gen before they can do 5 gen. It is a matter of expertise, people, machinery, time, and money. If they wanted to all these problems can be solved and they will build a good TFX FGF. It is putting all these things together. Not just having skills and genius working on the project.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It betrays common sense to go with Turkey on a JV for a 5th gen aircraft---when China---which is under massive threat from the US is pouring billions into its stealth program---.

And Paf would leave it to go with Turkey who hardly has any funds for such a massive venture---that is TREASON---.

 

[denel]

I think PAF leadership has gone bonkers. Why?
Which other indigenous plane have they designed and successfully inducted before?
Before jumping to 5th generation fighter, why don't they start with a brand new design of Mushaq, then K8, then newer bigger version of Thunder? Once they achieve this only then they can/should take up the 5th Gen project. Starting with smaller plane (less investment, less risk) will help them asses their own capabilities and helping setup/attract private businesses.

ever heard of relabelling. This is exactly what i had been saying; PAF must be told do their thing ... fly the planes; let the R&D and evolution to proper engineers and scientists. They are part of the problem not the solution.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I think PAF leadership has gone bonkers. Why?
Which other indigenous plane have they designed and successfully inducted before?
Before jumping to 5th generation fighter, why don't they start with a brand new design of Mushaq, then K8, then newer bigger version of Thunder? Once they achieve this only then they can/should take up the 5th Gen project. Starting with smaller plane (less investment, less risk) will help them asses their own capabilities and helping setup/attract private businesses.

Azm "should" be an existing design, partnered with a 3rd country with a greater content of local systems and more local manufacturing. As to what it will be, no one knows,

You are right, Pakistan has no experience in designing aeroplanes, only a few small drones to date. India has demonstrated that when you follow a reverse order in your development path, you end up with a jet that also only ever fly’s backwards.

Had they gone in the order below, they would have ended up with a far better product in the Tejas than what they have currently.

HTT40 -> HJT-36 -> Tejas

The path that India chose was born out of arrogance and perceived brahmin superiority, once that has proven to be quite incorrect!!!!

Pakistan has gradually built up their capabilities via Mushtaq, K8 and now JF17 ( the correct order), this has ONLY been in the manufacturing space, not in design.

I think Azm will be the next link in the chain, but only in the manufacturing space. Pakistan as a country lacks the depth of intellecutal talent to have the correct level of talent pool to conduct a R&D project of this nature. Had Pakistan invested in better schools, more colleges and universities with a focus on science and engineering and broadened that to a much wider portion of her population, then they could had the skills to design something like the Mushtaq about now.. but they didn't....

Is PAF as arrogant on their perceived capabilities as the Indians.. possibily...