SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[The Accountant]

And I was not talking about project azm

Project azm is probably a variant of j31 just like
Jf17 I may be wrong though


Just carrying two aams externally can reduce an aircraft's stealth features significantly.


Yes it comprises it's stealth significantly.

Agree, i thought you are talking about internal weapons ,,, My bad

 

[Ultima Thule]

Agree, i thought you are talking about internal weapons ,,, My bad

@Fawadqasim1 says that about Korean KFX will has no weapon bays, so by his logic KFX will be a lame project @The Accountant

 

[The Accountant]

@Fawadqasim1 says that about Korean KFX will has no weapon bays, so by his logic KFX will be a lame project @The Accountant

I agree with him

 

[Ultima Thule]

I agree with him

then by @Fawadqasim1 logic F-35/Project AZM/J-31 will also be lame projects with full weapons load out on CAS/Strike missions because they can't carry full air to ground load out in internal weapon bays @The Accountant think logically @The Accountant

 

[Fawadqasim1]

then by @Fawadqasim1 logic F-35/Project AZM/J-31 will also be lame projects with full weapons load out on CAS/Strike missions because they can't carry full air to ground load out in internal weapon bays @The Accountant think logically @The Accountant

With full weapon load non of the above are in their
Stealth role.
One brotherly advice from me please go see a psychiatrist.

 

[Indos]

Pakistan cant opt for KFX if the jet is filled with American parts, engine and weapons.

Why not ? Is Pakistan F 16 Block 52 still operational until Today ? I think the answer is yes. I think you are worried to much.

According to me, Pakistan will start acquiring Stealth fighter after 2025 where another new Stealth fighter (hopefully) will come up like KFX. KFX will be less American than F 16 as many major part will also come from South Korea (radar and other avionics) beside American engine. The design is Korean, American, and Indonesian. There will be European part as well. If I am not mistaken South Korean will also develop AA missile for KFX/IFX. https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ally-develop-missile-for-homemade-future-jet/

Talking about AZM project, it is supposed to be a research project conducted by Pakistani to nurture its design capability, because without new project the skill can be faded and there is a need to give experience to the new designers so that the industry and knowledge can still survive and developed. Actually the design skill can also be developed and nurtured by designing a civilian aircraft, and the cost will be much minimal with much better potential market.

And in order to get AZM project become successful and really make sense and produce real fighter (not just research program), it needs to have an experience partner in Stealth design, and another partner that will burden the development cost and plus become a fixed customer.

 

[HRK]

Why not ?

becasue we do not want to commit the same POLITICAL mistake as previous

 

[Fawadqasim1]

No one is going to share stealth technology with Pakistan other than china period

 

[Ultima Thule]

With full weapon load non of the above are in their
Stealth role.
One brotherly advice from me please go see a psychiatrist.

You need to update on stealth tech with air to ground payload even F-22 stealth is compromised @Fawadqasim1

No one is going to share stealth technology with Pakistan other than china period

May be Turkey will share us @Fawadqasim1

 

[Fawadqasim1]

You need to update on stealth tech with air to ground payload even F-22 stealth is compromised @Fawadqasim1

May be Turkey will share us @Fawadqasim1

Ok

 

[GriffinsRule]

There is no such thing as a stealth aircraft really, just low observable. When stated that way, an aircraft even with an external loadout can vary the range it would get detected by using both active (jamming) and passive (design, reduced emissions) means.

If we can vouch for an F-7 sized fighter to be harder to detect vs an Su-27, both armed with external weapons, the same would apply for a low-observable fighter. It maybe be larger than an F-7 and carry weapons externally, but still might end up with a smaller radar cross-section depending on its design and systems.

In the Indo-Pak context, its unrealistic to think PAF will have all stealth fighters. Project AZM, if it comes to fruition, will not be for a token buy of 40-50 aircraft where you could say sure, just have all weapons internally. It will be a replacement for over 80 F-16s and possibly be inducted in 150+ numbers in the long run. Thus, a design such as the Korean one, with recessed weapons among other features is the most likely scenario with PAF.

This goes both in line with the design philosophy at PAC and PAF, where keep it simple is the mantra for success. Having an aircraft that recessed weapons bay only serves to increase costs and complexity and given that those internals bays would be useful only for carrying a few AAMs, not at all effective for multirole operations PAF requires of all its aircraft.

Thats my take on it. AZM will not be a "stealth" fighter in the same capacity as J-20 or F-22 as some are envisioning here.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Thats my take on it. AZM will not be a "stealth" fighter in the same capacity as J-20 or F-22 as some are envisioning here.

It has to be a stealth jet, otherwise it a pointless exercise where PAF should carry on buying more advanced variants of the JF17 series.

 

[Cybernetics]

There is no such thing as a stealth aircraft really, just low observable. When stated that way, an aircraft even with an external loadout can vary the range it would get detected by using both active (jamming) and passive (design, reduced emissions) means.

It has to be a stealth jet, otherwise it a pointless exercise where PAF should carry on buying more advanced variants of the JF17 series.

@GriffinsRule was saying how "stealth" is not a binary situation where you either have "stealth" or "no stealth". Rather is a gradient of observability that can be measured in RCS (radar cross section), IR signatures, etc.

We only call certain jets "stealth" as a simple categorization of jets with low enough observability to give it an sufficient enough edge against enemy radars and sensors. "Stealth" planes are detectable by radar if you get close enough. "Stealth" is more of a marketing term.

If we can vouch for an F-7 sized fighter to be harder to detect vs an Su-27, both armed with external weapons, the same would apply for a low-observable fighter. It maybe be larger than an F-7 and carry weapons externally, but still might end up with a smaller radar cross-section depending on its design and systems.

In the Indo-Pak context, its unrealistic to think PAF will have all stealth fighters. Project AZM, if it comes to fruition, will not be for a token buy of 40-50 aircraft where you could say sure, just have all weapons internally. It will be a replacement for over 80 F-16s and possibly be inducted in 150+ numbers in the long run. Thus, a design such as the Korean one, with recessed weapons among other features is the most likely scenario with PAF.

This goes both in line with the design philosophy at PAC and PAF, where keep it simple is the mantra for success. Having an aircraft that recessed weapons bay only serves to increase costs and complexity and given that those internals bays would be useful only for carrying a few AAMs, not at all effective for multirole operations PAF requires of all its aircraft.

Here he looks at low observable fighters more holistically and at its combat effectiveness in PAFs missions. Incredibly low observability might not be desired as it in his view compromises payload capacity. An very low obserable fighter with internal bays using extnal hardpoints to compensate for its low payload would erode it's original advantsge. A good balance in his view would be just sufficient low observability for mission survival and enough payload to deliver a heavy punch. The exact balance of fixed cost, maintenance, observability, and payload that is optimal would depend on the requirements of PAF. A very low observable fighter might not be the most optimal. He thinks it is possible that KF-X matches closely with those requirements.

 

[araz]

It has to be a stealth jet, otherwise it a pointless exercise where PAF should carry on buying more advanced variants of the JF17 series.

What is making you think PAF will just give up on adesign it has worked on for nearly 20 yr. To give you an idea F16s were first seen in the mid to late 70 and even today remain relevant even to the USAwhich wants their life expanded to 2040. So a 50-70 yrs period of sustained progression can be expected. That which was designed in the 90s will not always remain so but will evolve with time as can be seen.
A

 

[Silicon0000]

Did Project AZM bring True 5th Gen fighter or a bit more stealthy 4th Gen fighter?

A fighter without internal weapon bay means only better RCS profile and nothing more.

What's the difference between eurofighter/Rafale and F35/F22 needs to be understand. There is a reason they called 4++ & 5 Gen.

KFX or any other fighter is pure BS to be called 5th Gen without internal weapon bay. 5th Gen can carry weapon both internally and externally but 4++ Gen can only carry them externally.