Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG

[Dash]

This actually is a political decision on part of hindustan and if i may say potent aircraft but a blunder at the same time, they could have actually saved money and invested in more SU-30/SU-35 "Frenchiefied" it just like their israelified SU-30s, RCS is one thing if they had to take a shot at to get lowered RCS product they could have discussed SU-35 whos RCS is small then SU-30 but then again we heard ridiculous smart stealth skin on SU-30 if that was the case more SU-30 would have been better. Yes you are right incase of hindustan but incase of Brazil they have got themselves a good deal lets hope they get NG+ product.

It was not a political decision..The aircrafts have been subjected to intense tests and + couple of other factors like availability, future upgrades and support, future development scope, TOT, future weapons, future radars. and if you combine everything Rafale was the best choice, coupled with India's experience with Mirages. So thats one.

Second, more Sukhois meant more trouble, 1. That would have shifted the balance. 2. Dont put all your eggs in one basket.

 

[GURU DUTT]

This actually is a political decision on part of hindustan and if i may say potent aircraft but a blunder at the same time, they could have actually saved money and invested in more SU-30/SU-35 "Frenchiefied" it just like their israelified SU-30s, RCS is one thing if they had to take a shot at to get lowered RCS product they could have discussed SU-35 whos RCS is small then SU-30 but then again we heard ridiculous smart stealth skin on SU-30 if that was the case more SU-30 would have been better. Yes you are right incase of hindustan but incase of Brazil they have got themselves a good deal lets hope they get NG+ product.

you are right i dont understand the need of rafale as MKIsed version on SU35 with all the latest russian and israeli wepons , pods , EW suites and other stuff would have been great deal and it would have saved at least billions of $$s for maintainence and liecense production as india already has a set up for its SU 30 MKIs which predecessor to SU35

 

[Malik Alashter]

Even if India signs 126 aircraft deal, it will take two years for the first aircraft to arrive and the last ones in 2020s, increase the number to 200 and that pushes the timetable further down.

Makes me wonder if Rafale is actually a good buy. Really expensive, not really combat tested (SEAD and etc in Libya doesn't count much, Libya wasn't much of an Air Defence threat anyway) and no export buyer compared to F-16s, Gripen, Typhoon, F-15s etc

If the Su30 MKI is as superior as India makes it to be (not saying it is not) then where does the Rafale fit?

This is my openion I think they want it just because it's highly advanced in tech plus they want to gain all that tech and it's modern design than the others.

It was not a political decision..The aircrafts have been subjected to intense tests and + couple of other factors like availability, future upgrades and support, future development scope, TOT, future weapons, future radars. and if you combine everything Rafale was the best choice, coupled with India's experience with Mirages. So thats one.

Second, more Sukhois meant more trouble, 1. That would have shifted the balance. 2. Dont put all your eggs in one basket.

But china depend mainly on SU-30 and it's byproduct so getting more advanced SU-30 version with all whistles it would be better decision in many terms. any way the rafale really modern and cute bird.

 

[MilSpec]

This actually is a political decision on part of hindustan and if i may say potent aircraft but a blunder at the same time, they could have actually saved money and invested in more SU-30/SU-35 "Frenchiefied" it just like their israelified SU-30s, RCS is one thing if they had to take a shot at to get lowered RCS product they could have discussed SU-35 whos RCS is small then SU-30 but then again we heard ridiculous smart stealth skin on SU-30 if that was the case more SU-30 would have been better. Yes you are right incase of hindustan but incase of Brazil they have got themselves a good deal lets hope they get NG+ product.

well, despite neighbors envy, MMRCA selection went under the scanner of trials by IAF, only EFT and Rafale were frontline runners, Gripen was deemed under-performing on several counts. India wanted to additional a/c with performance spectrum that potentially Eft/Rafale would have bought in addition to current MKI capabilities.

Rafale's selection was purely technical, if it was political the MMRCA winner would have been Mig35MKI!!

 

[neehar]

Sure it is termed waiting but hindustan has no other choice wasted millions and years it will go through as it is the only aircraft that can effectively replace large number of Jaguars and Mig-27 in the next 15 years all together, we should not take it lightly the numbers would increase from 126 to 200 eventually. But yes NSA, UK-French spying did damage throw out every contender except for Swedish Gripen.

i think this development would bring leverage to india in negotiations.indians are sure interested in rafale and they reiterated that many times so rafale is not going to leave the deal for sure..im hopeful that things will be done by next year

 

[Donatello]

well, despite neighbors envy, MMRCA selection went under the scanner of trials by IAF, only EFT and Rafale were frontline runners, Gripen was deemed under-performing on several counts. India wanted to additional a/c with performance spectrum that potentially Eft/Rafale would have bought in addition to current MKI capabilities.

Rafale's selection was purely technical, if it was political the MMRCA winner would have been Mig35MKI!!

That's funny.

Please tell us about the super criteria of IAF for selection process. After all, all those nations where Rafale failed to score a deal, they opted for F-16s, Gripen, Typhoon and F-15s

Hmm, the fact that these aforementioned aircraft are still seeing sales while Rafale is not, puts doubt on it's capabilities.

 

[MilSpec]

That's funny.

Please tell us about the super criteria of IAF for selection process. After all, all those nations where Rafale failed to score a deal, they opted for F-16s, Gripen, Typhoon and F-15s

Hmm, the fact that these aforementioned aircraft are still seeing sales while Rafale is not, puts doubt on it's capabilities.

Field trials consisted of more than 1250 technical, flight characteristics, operating envelope, aerodynamic, weapons delivers, communication, supersonic maneuverability parameters. These characteristics and their results were released to all participants, and none came back with any complaints on evaluations..... You being a TT need to chill on your rhetoric, just because you have your jingoism in place there is no need to cast aspersions on professionalism of IAF, as we have never done so for PAF... hoping such courtesy could be afforded by senior members on the forum.....

Indian requirements are unique to IAF's doctrine and required roles, i doubt UAE or brazil flying of the highest airbases in world to operating in the harshest hot desert conditions to maritime missions, or facing the adversaries and potential threats( like: fc1, fc20, su30 mkk, Su27's, f16, jH7, J8, F7, Mig29's, q5, J11 ) like IAF does....

Please do elaborate the funny part of my post.. because I do fail to see it...

 

[Donatello]

Field trials consisted of more than 1250 technical, flight characteristics, operating envelope, aerodynamic, weapons delivers, communication, supersonic maneuverability parameters. These characteristics and their results were released to all participants, and none came back with any complaints on evaluations..... You being a TT need to chill on your rhetoric, just because you have your jingoism in place there is no need to cast aspersions on professionalism of IAF, as we have never done so for PAF... hoping such courtesy could be afforded by senior members on the forum.....

Indian requirements are unique to IAF's doctrine and required roles, i doubt UAE or brazil flying of the highest airbases in world to operating in the harshest hot conditions, or facing the adversaries and threats like IAF does....

Please do elaborate the funny part of my post.. because I do fail to see it...

UAE not a hot condition? You must be joking.


Not being jingoistic, but the fact is, any terrain that India has to operate Rafale in, USA has operated it's F series fighters in. Infact, PAF operated F-16s in the same environment as well (high altitude, sea, desert etc), and then also evaluated Rafale in 2001-2003 time frame. My main objective was, why has Rafale not being able to secure an export order.

As in this thread, Brazil intended to purchase Rafale or F-18, where did Gripen come in and snatch the Rafale's bid???

On paper Rafale seems superior to Gripen (on paper)
More payload, range, weapons capacity etc.

But still Rafale is struggling for sales, 13 years after coming into service.


No need to remind me that i am a TT or not. I am well aware of that.

 

[MilSpec]

UAE not a hot condition? You must be joking.


Not being jingoistic, but the fact is, any terrain that India has to operate Rafale in, USA has operated it's F series fighters in. Infact, PAF operated F-16s in the same environment as well (high altitude, sea, desert etc), and then also evaluated Rafale in 2001-2003 time frame. My main objective was, why has Rafale not being able to secure an export order.

As in this thread, Brazil intended to purchase Rafale or F-18, where did Gripen come in and snatch the Rafale's bid???

On paper Rafale seems superior to Gripen (on paper)
More payload, range, weapons capacity etc.

But still Rafale is struggling for sales, 13 years after coming into service.


No need to remind me that i am a TT or not. I am well aware of that.

No I am not joking, but you if did not have selective reading where you disregarded rest of the parameters to potray hot flying condition to be determining factor, your reasoning seems to be quite apt for your point of contention.
Gripen over Rafale, in the end is quite easy to understand
Is the concept of price, that difficult to comprehend.... ????

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Even if India signs 126 aircraft deal, it will take two years for the first aircraft to arrive and the last ones in 2020s, increase the number to 200 and that pushes the timetable further down.

Makes me wonder if Rafale is actually a good buy. Really expensive, not really combat tested (SEAD and etc in Libya doesn't count much, Libya wasn't much of an Air Defence threat anyway) and no export buyer compared to F-16s, Gripen, Typhoon, F-15s etc

If the Su30 MKI is as superior as India makes it to be (not saying it is not) then where does the Rafale fit?

Ahah; you seem not to have got it yet, or you just do not read.
The MMRCA fits in between the Heavy End i.e the Su-30MKI and the Light End i.e. the LCA.

 

[Donatello]

No I am not joking, but you if did not have selective reading where you disregarded rest of the parameters to potray hot flying condition to be determining factor, your reasoning seems to be quite apt for your point of contention.
Gripen over Rafale, in the end is quite easy to understand
Is the concept of price, that difficult to comprehend.... ????

No, it is not easy to understand, and thus i brought it up for debate.

 

[akshay gehlot]

That's funny.

Please tell us about the super criteria of IAF for selection process. After all, all those nations where Rafale failed to score a deal, they opted for F-16s, Gripen, Typhoon and F-15s

Hmm, the fact that these aforementioned aircraft are still seeing sales while Rafale is not, puts doubt on it's capabilities.

Gripen is a very good low cost fighter so it will get orders

F-16 are good but most of orders are by us allies who are under pressure by U.S like the recent buying of F35 by South Korea

Typhoon also got very little orders except member states

Rafale failure is more political than technical i think . There are very few countries with which france has good relations

 

[MilSpec]

No, it is not easy to understand, and thus i brought it up for debate.

Ok, lets try this one, Toyota Camry > Perfectly capable sedan
BMW M5 > Also perfectly capable sedan,with additional HP, and additional features.
Price 18K vs 54K

Especially when Rafale :88.8 million
Gripen: US$ 40–60 million

 

[Donatello]

Gripen is a very good low cost fighter so it will get orders

F-16 are good but most of orders are by us allies who are under pressure by U.S like the recent buying of F35 by South Korea

Typhoon also got very little orders except member states

Rafale failure is more political than technical i think . There are very few countries with which france has good relations

Okay now that is something we can discuss on.

My earlier posts were for the reason(s):
1-Is Rafale really superior to other combat aircraft as much as Dassault is trying to make it seem?
2-Are French really that arrogant, that they are jeopardizing their entire industry?

 

[Assault Rifle]

@Donatello

BBC is reporting that Brazil rejected F-18SH & Rafale due to recent NSA spying scandal.