Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG

[Contrarian]

Of course, but being multi role capable as a fighter, doesn't mean that the operator will have an aim on multi role capabilities. But as I said, MKI has even a pretty strong aim on A2G as well and is not meant to be air dominance platform only, just like Rafale is not meant for strikes only.

That my friend is the definition of multirole

 

[sancho]

That my friend is the definition of multirole

As I said, multi role is a term that describes a capability of the fighter, not the intention of the customer on how to use it. When IAF doesn't buy a single A2G weapon for MKI, is it suddenly not a multi role fighter anymore? So yes they are multi role fighters, but no, IAF has no intention to use them only in dedicated roles!

Honestly, I have always wondered how a small country with a small population can create a competitive weapon capable of almost all kinds. And even more - airplanes. Swedes - amazing designers and engineers, just amazing.

The size of the country is not important, but what they make out of their capabilities and how far they can extend their capabilities of innovation, or out of the box thinking. Sweden, Israel, Germany, Japan, all not that big countries in size or population, but their level of innovation is truly admirable.
The change from Gripen to Gripen NG was good step forward and eventhough it still not as capable as the EF or Rafale, the cost / benefit ratio is pretty high and that's what makes it competitive, even against politically and industrially better offers.

 

[Contrarian]

As I said, multi role is a term that describes a capability of the fighter, not the intention of the customer on how to use it. When IAF doesn't buy a single A2G weapon for MKI, is it suddenly not a multi role fighter anymore? So yes they are multi role fighters, but no, IAF has no intention to use them only in dedicated roles!

Ofcourse not.
There are other factors as well.

 

[vostok]

The size of the country is not important, but what they make out of their capabilities and how far they can extend their capabilities of innovation, or out of the box thinking. Sweden, Israel, Germany, Japan, all not that big countries in size or population, but their level of innovation is truly admirable.
The change from Gripen to Gripen NG was good step forward and eventhough it still not as capable as the EF or Rafale, the cost / benefit ratio is pretty high and that's what makes it competitive, even against politically and industrially better offers.

There are only 9 million Swedish people. Germany - 80 million, plus free use of resources half of Europe. Israel - another matter entirely. To Israel came many of the best engineers from Europe and the USSR. Moreover, Israel uses almoust dimensionless help of USA and Germany.
Swedes are creating on their own efforts and relying only on very modest resources of Sweden. This is a unique country in this respect, in fact unique.

 

[HRK]

Dassault Blasts Brazil's Fighter Decision | Defense News | defensenews.com

PARIS AND LONDON — Dassault Aviation has lashed out at Brazil’s pick of the Saab Gripen E over the Rafale for its fighter competition, pointing out that the Gripen contains US items and does not perform as well as the Rafale.

Brazil on Wednesday selected the Gripen E for the FX-2 program, a contract worth $4.5 billion for 36 jets to be delivered by 2020.

“We regret that the choice has gone in favor of the Gripen, an aircraft provided with many items of equipment of third party origin, especially US, and [which] does not belong to the same category as the Rafale,” Dassault said through a statement released Wednesday from Rafale International, a team led by the prime contractor, with engine-maker Snecma and electronics specialist Thales.

The problem with including third-party, US-made equipment is that Washington could object to the sale. US engine-maker General Electric provides the Gripen E’s F414 power plant.

The other big international supplier to the new Gripen E version is Britain. About 30 percent by value of the aircraft is exported from Britain, predominantly the Raven active electronically scanned array radar developed by Selex ES at its Edinburgh factory in Scotland.

“The Gripen is a lighter, single-engined aircraft that does not match the Rafale in terms of performance and therefore does not carry the same price tag,” Dassault said.

That meant failure for competing offers from Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Dassault Rafale, both twin-engine fighters.

Brazil’s selection failed to take into account the Rafale’s cost-effectiveness and the technology offered, the company said.

Dassault’s offer had “the full backing of the French authorities” and had responded to Brazil’s request for technology transfer, scientific, technical and industrial partnership, the company said.

The French team had planned to cooperate long term with Brazilian industry, particularly with Embraer, Dassault said.

Meanwhile, Saab CEO Håkan Buskhe said Brazil selected the “world-leading and most affordable fighter.”

“This announcement is very significant for the collaboration between Sweden and Brazil. We stand prepared to start the industrial collaboration as planned, with its positive effects for Brazilian industry,” Buskhe said.

The Swedish company said in a statement that the offer to the Brazilian government included an extensive technology transfer package, a financing package as well as long-term, bilateral collaboration between the two governments.

The Rafale was an early favorite of the Brazilian government, even though Saab executives always claimed the Air Force’s technical evaluation of the contenders favored the Gripen E.

More recently, the F/A-18 had taken up the mantle of contest favorite on the back of improving relations between the US and Brazilian administrations — before revelations that Washington has been spying on the government of President Dilma Rousseff.

The Swedish fighter replaces an aging fleet of Mirage 2000s, which the Brazilian Air Force is due to retire this week, Reuters reported.

Saab awaits an expected referendum in Switzerland next year to seal the procurement of 22 Gripen E aircraft. The new variant of the Gripen is under development for the Swedish Air Force and export customers.

Conclusion of the deal with Brazil, likely sometime late next year, means the Swedish company would have to work out a three-way development plan for the Gripen E encompassing Swedish, Brazilian and Swiss industry.

Just hours before the surprise announcement of a winner in the long-running Brazilian contest, Saab announced it had secured a SEK16.4 billion (US $2.4 billion) deal with the Swedish Government for serial production of the Gripen E fighters.

Sixty Gripen C standard aircraft operated by the Swedish Air Force will be upgraded to the new E version; deliveries will begin in 2018.

Analysts said conclusion of the deals with Switzerland and Brazil would give the Gripen E program critical mass and enhance the aircraft’s position in further export contests.

The analysts said it was likely the 36 units being ordered by Brazil would be the first of several tranches of aircraft as the Brazilian Air Force renews its fleet over the next few years.

Doug Barrie, the senior air analyst at the International Institute of Strategic Studies, said the current tender was “always seen as the first buy of possibly as many as 100 aircraft. It’s the start of the order rather than the end of the order, assuming the Brazilians like what they are getting,” he said.

A maritime version of the Gripen could also meet Brazilian Navy requirements to equip an aircraft carrier sometime in the future, he said.

Saab has already carried out early design work on a possible Sea Gripen offering for the export market.

Brazil’s pick of the Gripen E, meanwhile, delivers another blow to Dassault as the family-controlled company also lost out to the Swedish fighter in Switzerland’s fighter competition.

France’s 2014-19 multi-year defense budget counts on export sales of the Rafale, as domestic military spending is under extreme pressure.

Dassault expects a sale of the Rafale to India, which last year picked the French jet for exclusive talks.

 

[Donatello]

Rafale is no upgrade of the Mirage, it was aimed higher and based on the requirements of the French forces. So it was never meant to have automatically the same customers that procured at least F1s, M2K customers didn't ordered new fighters except of India.
The biggest problem that the Eurocanards have, is that they are too advanced compared to older upgraded 4th gen fighters, which makes them expensive, but at the same time came so late, that they are not as advanced as coming 5th gen fighters. So for customers that only can afford an upgrade from the single engine fighters, F16s, Gripens, or JF 17s are the better choice. Customers that can afford M-MRCAs or even heavy class fighters, will have other aims as well, be it political (Singapore, S.Korea) or industrial advantages (India, UAE).
What we see today however, has more to do with the financial problems that many countries have in these the crisis years. Switzerland and Brazil doesn't really need more than the Gripen for their threat perception, but politically and industrially, they wanted more with these competitions. In Switzerland it didin't even met the minimum requirements, while it was rated low from the Brazilian air force as well, but at the end, the simple fact of low defence budgets caused the selection of the cheapest choice. Brazilian politicians always made it clear, that they aim on strategic benefits for their country, which is why France and the US pushed hard with their politicians and good industrial offers, but when you can't afford it, it doesn't matter what you want.

Okay, good assumptions there, but Typhoon secured export orders as well. Yes Saudi Arabia uses the Pan European Tornado and US F-15s, but they could have easily purchased Rafale to bring the French into their domain as well. Not like they cannot afford it or anything. Oman is going for it, so did Austria.

And yes, Rafale is not an upgrade for Mirage but rather a replacement for it. It makes sense for Countries operating French Mirage series to replace it with Rafale.

 

[sancho]

There are only 9 million Swedish people. Germany - 80 million, plus free use of resources half of Europe. Israel - another matter entirely. To Israel came many of the best engineers from Europe and the USSR. Moreover, Israel uses almoust dimensionless help of USA and Germany.
Swedes are creating on their own efforts and relying only on very modest resources of Sweden. This is a unique country in this respect, in fact unique.

Sweden is not working alone either, be it in design with UK, with France or ITA on radar with GER on weapons, or engines with US..., so that is similar to Israel or from Germany/Japan compared to the US or Russia. But still it is the innovations that sets them apart, be it in developing modern radar and avionic systems, or weapon techs.

 

[vostok]

Sweden is not working alone either, be it in design with UK, with France or ITA on radar with GER on weapons, or engines with US..., so that is similar to Israel or from Germany/Japan compared to the US or Russia. But still it is the innovations that sets them apart, be it in developing modern radar and avionic systems, or weapon techs.

Cooperation and assistance are two different things . Many works of Israel sponsored by the United States or Europe. Sweden pays itself .
Sweden - the only one of the small nations creating such an impressive arsenal of weapons . From submarines to airjets.
Sweden has never have overseas colonies , as France, Britain, Germany or Japan. The Swedes do not have oil. Swedes live in the North . Another such talented and hardworking nation simply does not exist . Among small nations, I mean.
Jews - is another , they use developments all over the world at their disposal and half the world's financial resources.

 

[SQ8]

The only place where I see the Gripen NG with a slight disadvantage is over Brazilian coastal interests. Although I am basing this on the legacy Gripen Performance. The Gripen's short field performance and compact package are great for the little squabbles of South America. And off course, the natural integration with the Erieye.

 

[sancho]

Okay, good assumptions there, but Typhoon secured export orders as well. Yes Saudi Arabia uses the Pan European Tornado and US F-15s, but they could have easily purchased Rafale to bring the French into their domain as well. Not like they cannot afford it or anything. Oman is going for it, so did Austria.

Oman did not even had a competition and purely made a political decision based on their relations to the UK and is replacing Jaguars with EFs. Austria bought mainly second hand EFs, which makes the Saudis the only real export order in a competition and that based on the mentioned points. So it's hard to take them as proves for export success (both together not even 50 fighters), while the EF was rejected in nearly all open competitions for cost and technical reasons, while the Rafale was always shortlisted to the finalists and lost at the end for cost or political reasons, which ends up at the requirements of each country.
From a pure technical / performance point of view, the Rafale is one of the best 4.5th gen fighters available today, not only based on various evaluation results, but also compared to it's operational performance in exercises or wars.
However, that alone won't seal a deal, since fighter competitions are in most cases (India was an exception) not on performance of the fighter mainly, but on side benefits. The UAE is the best example for that now. They don't need new fighters, since the M2Ks are new, their prefer the French politically, since they provide them with more capable arms than the US allows and they have the money to afford the Rafale, but all that is not important for them, since side advantages are what they aim to, not a fighter replacement. They want more landing rights for their air lines in France, they want more industrial benefits and production in the UAE..., so they are trying to milk the French as much as they can and since they are not in a hurry, they can extend the negotiations, or bring the US or the EF in to increase pressure.
Again, all this has nothing to do with Rafale as a fighter, it's performance, not even with the operational requirements of UAE air force.

And yes, Rafale is not an upgrade for Mirage but rather a replacement for it. It makes sense for Countries operating French Mirage series to replace it with Rafale.

No it doesn't, since it was developed with the higher requirements of French forces in mind and unless the customer has similar requirements, the Rafale would not be the right choice. Even IAF wanted the single engined M2K-5 and not a twin engined Mig 29SMT in the initial MRCA, the only reason why they went with Rafale now, is that it was the most suitable of the M-MRCA according to their requirements.

Cooperation and assistance are two different things . Many works of Israel sponsored by the United States or Europe. Sweden pays itself .

The paylements of the US or GER are another issue, but even the US takes Israeli technology as the base for their own systems and that allthough they are a superpower and spend multiple times the money Israel spends. It's only the capability of the population and the benefits you get through cooperations and that is similar for Sweden as well as Israeli, or similar countries.

 

[Superboy]

Does Gripen NG even have DSI? On top of that, only 36 planes for a big country like Brazil. Gripen NG is still in development, likely won't fly before 2017.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Honestly, I have always wondered how a small country with a small population can create a competitive weapon capable of almost all kinds. And even more - airplanes. Swedes - amazing designers and engineers, just amazing.

In the late 30s, Italy was the only country that would sell anything that even resembled modern aircraft to Sweden, and that was still junk, so Sweden, trying to stay out of alliances had to start designing its own aircraft. Since Sweden is small, doing multi-role makes sense.

As for losing the MMRCA, one of the key reasons was that SAAB showed the Gripen-C/D
and offered the Gripen NG, which is still some years away.
No AESA radar in the C/D version and no Naval version.
Then Rafale do have longer range and more weapon points.

Having a lot of weapon points is only good if you have anything to put there.
As far as I can tell from a brief google, the French Air Force has 180 Rafales delivered or on order
and purchased 1100 MICAs and 200 Meteor, which gives each aircraft 6 MICAs and 1 Meteor.

Wonder what gives more bang for the buck?
A cheaper aircraft which can do several Air to Air sorties loaded with missiles,
or an expensive aircraft which will shoot of the complete inventory in a single mission.

As for the Brazil decision, the Brazil Air Force allegedly recommended Gripen NG,
but former President Lulu wanted to get in bed with France for political reasons.
With the new President that was off, and apparently the new president Dilma Rousseff
wanted closer ties with the US, so the F/A-18 seemed to get a slight upper hand.

Brazil's Super Tucano won the U.S. Light Air Support (LAS) contract for 100 planes, which
was heavily contested by a congress lobby which wanted to contract to be awarded to
Beechcraft. Once they decided that cause was lost, congress cut down the order to 15.
Was probably noted in Brazil.

The U.S. is notoriously bad on ToT, and this was a major part of any deal.

The Edward Snowdon factor definitely had a major effect on the decision.
- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

But everyone seems to ignore the real reason:
We are talking about latinos. They are all machos.

They want the best-looking fighter aircraft in the world, and now they are getting it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Day by day Dassualt have got to be growing more desperate to clinch this Indian Rafale export order- not only is it the potential largest single order but others (Malaysia and some Arab nations) are holding off on making their own orders until India makes a move.

It's really do or die time for Dassualt's military division and they, along with the French Govt, have got to be throwing all they can at the Indian deal.


Should be very good news for India...............

 

[jhungary]

Sure it is termed waiting but hindustan has no other choice wasted millions and years it will go through as it is the only aircraft that can effectively replace large number of Jaguars and Mig-27 in the next 15 years all together, we should not take it lightly the numbers would increase from 126 to 200 eventually. But yes NSA, UK-French spying did damage throw out every contender except for Swedish Gripen.

Once again, the Swede did it by maintaining political correctness.....Same deal they won over the swiss contract

 

[jhungary]

Honestly, I have always wondered how a small country with a small population can create a competitive weapon capable of almost all kinds. And even more - airplanes. Swedes - amazing designers and engineers, just amazing.

Cooperation and assistance are two different things . Many works of Israel sponsored by the United States or Europe. Sweden pays itself .
Sweden - the only one of the small nations creating such an impressive arsenal of weapons . From submarines to airjets.
Sweden has never have overseas colonies , as France, Britain, Germany or Japan. The Swedes do not have oil. Swedes live in the North . Another such talented and hardworking nation simply does not exist . Among small nations, I mean.
Jews - is another , they use developments all over the world at their disposal and half the world's financial resources.

Honestly, the Swede development from a small country is becasue of you people - the Russian.

Do remember, Sweden used to be a very big empire and since they lost the war with Russia and they loses Finland along the way, they have change from a Northern Slackbag into hardworking efficient type of people.

You will not believe how people square things away in Sweden, they go into extreme length to do their work and they are hard working and always maintain a good relationship with other. And there are about 10 million of Swede in Sweden, me included.