Saab pitches for joint development of Sea Gripen fighter jets

[dadeechi]

There, fixed that for you ...

There is one truth shining through that last part aside from the overall theme of anti-LCA choices due to position.
If there is another national design launched ( be it AMCA or a second LCA iteration ), the private sector should
be allowed in. The reasons favouring this are just too numerous to list. I mean, SAAB are not an NGO, are they?

Great day all, Tay.

Thanks. I liked your witty response.

India do have couple of Sea Harrier, but they are not on board carrier, rather offshore bases, and now have been upgraded with israeli EL/M-2032 Radar, and derby/python weapon.

There was no point of buying typhoon naval for the Russian carrier, and since India already have Mig29 which now have been upgraded to Mig 29UPG of SMT standards, the commonality dictates MIG29k.



And I lack you passion to look at the news with different angle.

For LCA, the one who can really help is not the SAAB or the GE, rather the Dassault, who have reviewed the LCA design from the start. The requirement for the easily maintainability, due to modular construction and faster turn out and quick engine replacement was asked by IAF only in year 2009. These all will be addressed in next avataar LCA mk2, confirmed by the ADA officials many times and earlier on ADA hadn't designed LCA for those.

What I am making out from the series of SAAB attempt, is that they are really feeling the heat of the LCA Tejas, because once LCA Tejas MK2 will be out it will a good competitive options against Swedish Grippen with Indian, Russian, French, Israeli Radars and Weapons option with the trainer and Naval variant available, with the backing of the IAF induction which will be the boast.

The cost factors would also be their for the LCA. Problem with SAAB is that Grippen might be the last of its fighter plane, because the world is now started looking at the 5th Gen aerial warfare, and SAAB don't have the money and resource to starts the program of its own. They are looking to kill the propable competitors MK2 in its early stage, and join AMCA and get the share of the profits. Reason look at the international market who are the big market US -- have its own, Russia and China -- Nochance, Europe already have US and european EF2000 and raffale, so what is left is the countries with small budget and small airforce.

However SAAB can get orders for its sensors like MAWS, RWS, LWS which might be chosen for our helli fleet like LCH, LAH, Rudra. Other than that they can try their luck.

I appreciate the long and detailed responses you provide in most of your posts. At my age I just have passion to read such lengthy posts not write them.

1) What is the guarantee that new requirements like having stealth features will not be added to the ASR when MK2 would be ready? By the time MK2 would be ready for production, stealth may be a common place.

2) In IAF's defense, If someone asks me what you in need in my car, I would probably say AC, Automated Transmission, GPS, MP3 player. I would not say I need a easy way to swap my battery or change my oil filter.

 

[knight11]

I appreciate the long and detailed responses you provide in most of your posts. At my age I just have passion to read such lengthy posts not write them.

I appreciate that you read them, and thanks for the members who rated me thanks.

1) What is the guarantee that new requirements like having stealth features be added to the ASR when MK2 would be ready? By the time MK2 would be ready for production, stealth may be a common place.

2) In IAF's defense, If someone asks me what you in need in my car, I would probably say AC, Automated Transmission, GPS, MP3 player. I would not say I need a easy way to swap my battery or change my oil filter.

1. Now even you cannot gaurantee that FGFA would be stealth or even produced

Second is the Stealth -- Which is another hoshbag for some people. Stealth does not means invisible to Radar, rather low RCS, which again depends on not only the power of radar, aircraft shaping, but also the frequency of the radar. What if something different kind of radar are developed in future, which don't utilize electromagnetic waves as the medium, rather something else. We are developing a 4th generation fighter plane that could serve our purpose and our requirement at the cheaper cost, and most important that could dictate our self reliance and support indigenous tech knowledge and industry and not a 5th Gen LO fighter plane right now aka AMCA.

For Why MK2 would be stealth is due to fact, LCA is already a small nimble aircraft, with high composite usage, and in MK2, which ADA have said that the percentage of the composite may be raised to 60% from 40% at present. Second the internal AESA jammer Virgilus from EADS/CASSIDIAN would likely to be fitted onboard MK2 thats why ADA is increasing its lenght, which is also in EF2000 and our MIG29 UPG, making it only bird with the internal jammer, because even MKI don't have an internal jammer and is using Israeli elta jammer pod.

2. For that you have to understand the basic problem in Indian Defense. In India IAF expect ADA/DRDO to come up with an idea, for their future requirement. Once they got some inputs whether from the Brouchers of various OEM, say they got the idea of high availability, low service, and turnout time during the evolution of MMRCA from SAAB.

The ADA/DRDO are R&D personals but they don't have the knowledge in defense or how war is fight, or what pilot could help in the battle and what are the latest tactical and strategic threats are developing around us. IAF are the one who use it, but they don't have the knowledge of the technological and technical problems, or whether the technological knowledge is present in the country and the latest technological development around the world.Third part is MOD, and GOI, who are nor the r&D nor the defense personal, rather the civil political beurocrats but with an important key in their hands i.e Money/budget and the policy to develop the educational institutions in the country (whose products are the ones that do the research or become the defense personal).

ADA/DRDO wants funds but don't have the clue how end user fight the war, and whether funds is available
IAF wants best weapons but don't have the clue whether technology is available or the political twist.
MOD have the budget don't have the clue of problem between ADA and IAF

But in USA, their is a organization called DARPA that constitutes of members from all segments who do long terms planning, and predicts the future defense requirement according to which the institutions that creates the technologies to create the weapons for the national requirement, Suppose the requirement of some Radar Tech is needed to be developed in the country, but the number of Engineers and Scientists are not their in the country, there should be some agency/system that could create various institutions to produce them well advance.

So sorry whether you includes private players or not as suggested by @Taygibay you could decrease the time in production or development, nothing substantial is gonna happens in this field.

Whatever we have achieved is Remarkable, looking at the factors, what constrain we got, and the ones who laugh on us, they don't know shit about us.

--- knight11

 

[dadeechi]

I appreciate that you read them, and thanks for the members who rated me thanks.



1. Now even you cannot gaurantee that FGFA would be stealth or even produced

Second is the Stealth -- Which is another hoshbag for some people. Stealth does not means invisible to Radar, rather low RCS, which again depends on not only the power of radar, aircraft shaping, but also the frequency of the radar. What if something different kind of radar are developed in future, which don't utilize electromagnetic waves as the medium, rather something else. We are developing a 4th generation fighter plane that could serve our purpose and our requirement at the cheaper cost, and most important that could dictate our self reliance and support indigenous tech knowledge and industry and not a 5th Gen LO fighter plane right now aka AMCA.

For Why MK2 would be stealth is due to fact, LCA is already a small nimble aircraft, with high composite usage, and in MK2, which ADA have said that the percentage of the composite may be raised to 60% from 40% at present. Second the internal AESA jammer Virgilus from EADS/CASSIDIAN would likely to be fitted onboard MK2 thats why ADA is increasing its lenght, which is also in EF2000 and our MIG29 UPG, making it only bird with the internal jammer, because even MKI don't have an internal jammer and is using Israeli elta jammer pod.

2. For that you have to understand the basic problem in Indian Defense. In India IAF expect ADA/DRDO to come up with an idea, for their future requirement. Once they got some inputs whether from the Brouchers of various OEM, say they got the idea of high availability, low service, and turnout time during the evolution of MMRCA from SAAB.

The ADA/DRDO are R&D personals but they don't have the knowledge in defense or how war is fight, or what pilot could help in the battle and what are the latest tactical and strategic threats are developing around us. IAF are the one who use it, but they don't have the knowledge of the technological and technical problems, or whether the technological knowledge is present in the country and the latest technological development around the world.Third part is MOD, and GOI, who are nor the r&D nor the defense personal, rather the civil political beurocrats but with an important key in their hands i.e Money/budget and the policy to develop the educational institutions in the country (whose products are the ones that do the research or become the defense personal).

ADA/DRDO wants funds but don't have the clue how end user fight the war, and whether funds is available
IAF wants best weapons but don't have the clue whether technology is available or the political twist.
MOD have the budget don't have the clue of problem between ADA and IAF

But in USA, their is a organization called DARPA that constitutes of members from all segments who do long terms planning, and predicts the future defense requirement according to which the institutions that creates the technologies to create the weapons for the national requirement, Suppose the requirement of some Radar Tech is needed to be developed in the country, but the number of Engineers and Scientists are not their in the country, there should be some agency/system that could create various institutions to produce them well advance.

So sorry whether you includes private players or not as suggested by @Taygibay you could decrease the time in production or development, nothing substantial is gonna happens in this field.

Whatever we have achieved is Remarkable, looking at the factors, what constrain we got, and the ones who laugh on us, they don't know shit about us.

--- knight11

Yes I do read most of your posts and they are lengthy most of time. With my shallow knowledge I can only read and cannot write such posts.

With regards to stealth, I get your points on Radars, Jammers, size of LCA and use of composites. What about internal weapons?

You have hit the nail on the head. You cannot expect technical experts, end users, sponsors communicating directly We need a architecture team who devises the strategies, advises on their implementation and manages the communication between the stakeholders.

 

[knight11]

Yes I do read most of your posts and they are lengthy most of time. With my shallow knowledge I can only read and cannot write such posts.

With regards to stealth, I get your points on Radars, Jammers, size of LCA and use of composites. What about internal weapons?

You have hit the nail on the head. You cannot expect technical experts, end users, sponsors communicating directly We need a architecture team who devises the strategies, advises on their implementation and manages the communication between the stakeholders.

Internal weapons is not needed for the 4th Gen fighter plane.

I tell you one thing actually their is no need for the stealth fighter at all. Stealth is just one feature that give the advantage for the aircraft against the enemy who have substantially strong Anti aircraft shield to make the break though, thats all.

Why would some one requiered a 250 million a piece bird with high maintenance, when it could fire 100 of Cruise missile like brahmos at the same cost with more devastating result what could be done with one bird.
The concept of 5th Gen warfare is highly integrated and coupled system fighting the battle for high intrensic quick, short, and coordinated fight, and a LO aircraft is just a part of it. A country say Pakistan with F35 does not makes its airforce stronger than X airforce, just because of that aircraft, but would required the Satellite axcess, communication systems, sensors, ground radars all forming to make a system with a big huge battlefield picture and one big unified weapon where pilot is only a decission maker to choose the option to attain the desired goal.

So we are right now making a fighter plane for the 4th gen warfare, and stealth here means low rcs, high survivability.

 

[wiseone2]

Exactly, they are presenting what seems like an incredible deal- until you actually consider the potential victims ie the LCA program and that is simply too big a price to pay, even if SAAB was offering Gripen's at 80% off it would not be in India' long term interest to purchase them.

+ The hilarious part of the SAAB offer is they are trying to dupe the media/public with this "collaboration/ToT" rhetoric but what IPRs do they own for the Gripen? They certainly have no ability to provide ToT on the AESA Radar or powerplant which are the two key areas on any plane and the only two areas HAL/ADA would be interested in- HAL knows very well how to produce an advanced airframe these days. It is all a con from SAAB.

I know SAAB get licenses for their engine from American companies. Doesn't SAAB make their own radar ?

 

[C130]

@Taygibay @The_Sidewinder @gslv mk3 @PARIKRAMA @knight11 @Ankit Kumar

Just tellin' you guys that if you're struggling with the Tejas,we have some Rafale M.
Why looking after these Swedes.
-
View attachment 282767
View attachment 282768
View attachment 282769

that or the F-35C

this is assuming India aircraft carrier will have the U.S EMALS system though.

 

[Taygibay]

I know SAAB get licenses for their engine from American companies. Doesn't SAAB make their own radar ?

They don't! The radar is coming for Selex who also produces the AESA part for Captor to become CAESAR.
But Selex is highly trustworthy in aerial AESAs ( see PicoSAR ); don't doubt them!

2) In IAF's defense, If someone asks me what you in need in my car, I would probably say AC, Automated Transmission, GPS, MP3 player. I would not say I need a easy way to swap my battery or change my oil filter.

In fact, with Rafale, they'll get both! The machine is uber-tech in cost savings way in exploitation. A given replaceable module ( 1 to 3 hours job ) is extracted once the automated diagnostic systems find it below safe levels, i.e. as it is
about to break. It's picked up by the maker under service contract with the state and repared or replaced as your phone might be. This is part of the following answer as well.

So sorry whether you includes private players or not as suggested by @Taygibay you could decrease the time in production or development, nothing substantial is gonna happens in this field.

Including private sector participation is not solely a time reducing maneuver but also profits in-house processes of
the govt units involved. At the level at which an equipment leaves the military, private corps operate faster & better.
And I am far from being a fan of capitalism. It's just true!

Whatever we have achieved is Remarkable, looking at the factors, what constrain we got, and the ones who laugh on us, they don't know shit about us.

I sort of disagree my poor friend. Remarkable, certainly not! Check your northern neighbours and be honest!
Some of your compatriots loathe me for this but the Tejas is not a great plane. It's a fighter plane, period!
An up-to-date fighter with low tier capacities that can serve now and for the foreseeable future.
But it is an achievement just to do that from where you began and in context, not a problem; see below ...

So we are right now making a fighter plane for the 4th gen warfare, and stealth here means low rcs, high survivability.

There you are right on the money. J-17, J10, a couples squadrons of J-16s, maybe a J_20 or two.
The MKI and Rafales for the J-15+ types and the lost F-16s and LCA sweeping the rest is the idea.
Still . . .
the present and planned battle order of the IAF is not enough. If I was Indian, in exchanged for a realistic
appraisal of the TEJAS, I'd like to be given a bone or two. Bring any program to completion maybe? Fully
sourced Su-30s that HAL can maintain flying ( flying well, safe ideally ) not waiting parked by a plant? How about
that Kaveri engine? When is that due? And the AESA that does not have to translate from Yiddish? ETC.

AMCA is fine for the long run but honestly, India needs a new program now, one that works! Fund an LCA 2.0.
Be coherent but modest in demands, more than TEJAS, less than LCA. Open DRDO to collaboration with
private sector partners. Find tech advisors once and flocking stick by them until a result has surfaced.
ToT? Ask for max transcripts, translated properly, of all and any technical data as per contract. Have your people
peruse it but not your best. Keep those for work within the foreign "teacher" associated teams, be it design or production. Have them sponge up the knowledge and report. Recon is not for dummies as I seem to remember!
That way, your present elite passes on its knowledge and at the same time is rejuvenated; your military industrial
complex refines if not redefines in your case and *cough, cough* possible delays on AMCA are covered.

Slaps on the back are fine when you've won Gold. Qualifying for the final is merely a call to train harder!

Keep your spirits up though! There's room for improvement and no severe urgency, Tay.

P.S. To have at least one on_topic comment : Sweden did a Gripen with loads of mil avia design experience.
India did half of one starting from scratch. Why not build on that? Don't buy Gripen as LCA mark X!
Build Gripen + in your own garage instead?

 

[dadeechi]

Internal weapons is not needed for the 4th Gen fighter plane.

I tell you one thing actually their is no need for the stealth fighter at all. Stealth is just one feature that give the advantage for the aircraft against the enemy who have substantially strong Anti aircraft shield to make the break though, thats all.

Why would some one requiered a 250 million a piece bird with high maintenance, when it could fire 100 of Cruise missile like brahmos at the same cost with more devastating result what could be done with one bird.
The concept of 5th Gen warfare is highly integrated and coupled system fighting the battle for high intrensic quick, short, and coordinated fight, and a LO aircraft is just a part of it. A country say Pakistan with F35 does not makes its airforce stronger than X airforce, just because of that aircraft, but would required the Satellite axcess, communication systems, sensors, ground radars all forming to make a system with a big huge battlefield picture and one big unified weapon where pilot is only a decission maker to choose the option to attain the desired goal.

So we are right now making a fighter plane for the 4th gen warfare, and stealth here means low rcs, high survivability.

4th, 4+, 4++, 5th generation designations are good for forum discussions. when the need arrives what matters is if the plane is worthy enough the opponent or not. If the opponent already employs 5ht gen fighters, how does a 4th gen fighter with external weapons perform?

They don't! The radar is coming for Selex who also produces the AESA part for Captor to become CAESAR.
But Selex is highly trustworthy in aerial AESAs ( see PicoSAR ); don't doubt them!



In fact, with Rafale, they'll get both! The machine is uber-tech in cost savings way in exploitation. A given replaceable module ( 1 to 3 hours job ) is extracted once the automated diagnostic systems find it below safe levels, i.e. as it is
about to break. It's picked up by the maker under service contract with the state and repared or replaced as your phone might be. This is part of the following answer as well.



Including private sector participation is not solely a time reducing maneuver but also profits in-house processes of
the govt units involved. At the level at which an equipment leaves the military, private corps operate faster & better.
And I am far from being a fan of capitalism. It's just true!



I sort of disagree my poor friend. Remarkable, certainly not! Check your northern neighbours and be honest!
Some of your compatriots loathe me for this but the Tejas is not a great plane. It's a fighter plane, period!
An up-to-date fighter with low tier capacities that can serve now and for the foreseeable future.
But it is an achievement just to do that from where you began and in context, not a problem; see below ...


There you are right on the money. J-17, J10, a couples squadrons of J-16s, maybe a J_20 or two.
The MKI and Rafales for the J-15+ types and the lost F-16s and LCA sweeping the rest is the idea.
Still . . .
the present and planned battle order of the IAF is not enough. If I was Indian, in exchanged for a realistic
appraisal of the TEJAS, I'd like to be given a bone or two. Bring any program to completion maybe? Fully
sourced Su-30s that HAL can maintain flying ( flying well, safe ideally ) not waiting parked by a plant? How about
that Kaveri engine? When is that due? And the AESA that does not have to translate from Yiddish? ETC.

AMCA is fine for the long run but honestly, India needs a new program now, one that works! Fund an LCA 2.0.
Be coherent but modest in demands, more than TEJAS, less than LCA. Open DRDO to collaboration with
private sector partners. Find tech advisors once and flocking stick by them until a result has surfaced.
ToT? Ask for max transcripts, translated properly, of all and any technical data as per contract. Have your people
peruse it but not your best. Keep those for work within the foreign "teacher" associated teams, be it design or production. Have them sponge up the knowledge and report. Recon is not for dummies as I seem to remember!
That way, your present elite passes on its knowledge and at the same time is rejuvenated; your military industrial
complex refines if not redefines in your case and *cough, cough* possible delays on AMCA are covered.

Slaps on the back are fine when you've won Gold. Qualifying for the final is merely a call to train harder!

Keep your spirits up though! There's room for improvement and no severe urgency, Tay.

P.S. To have at least one on_topic comment : Sweden did a Gripen with loads of mil avia design experience.
India did half of one starting from scratch. Why not build on that? Don't buy Gripen as LCA mark X!
Build Gripen + in your own garage instead?

One area why I am, very exited about RAFALE is that it would make InAF a very educated and informed user who could apply those learnings on indigenous projects.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yes I do read most of your posts and they are lengthy most of time. With my shallow knowledge I can only read and cannot write such posts.

seconded

 

[knight11]

I sort of disagree my poor friend. Remarkable, certainly not! Check your northern neighbours and be honest!
Some of your compatriots loathe me for this but the Tejas is not a great plane. It's a fighter plane, period!
An up-to-date fighter with low tier capacities that can serve now and for the foreseeable future.
But it is an achievement just to do that from where you began and in context, not a problem; see below ...

Tejas might not be a good plane for you, but if you look at different perception about this whole plane aka LCA project, what we were before and what we were now, the difference is makes what LCA have given us. With LCA we were able to lower down the technological gap. Before that we were mere just a buyers and with imported weapons we can win the battle not the war. LCA is not only the plane what you hear trying to get the FOC, but it is also present in the Jaguar Darlin upgrade, Mig 27 upgrade, in MKI, and the technology developed with it will be also present in the FGFA. The whole idea was to develop a plane with technical know how and to make the country self reliance and to develop the whole ecosystem in the country which was not there (now we have Reliance aerospace, tata, mahindra, godrej aerospace around 20 private aerospace company big and small).

And regarding our North friend that was the industrial investment to get the ready made product, which could be produced economically, looking at their economical condition right decission, but does that products latest version is capable equivalent to LCA tejas MK-1a and does that product is providing them the know how to build another product of their own. Second does that product was fully capable and certified from day one, or at the present.

People might think that LCA is very very delayed, but I am glad, the ADA aimed very high because otherwise it would have been killed by the powerful import lobby in our country very easily. So did we achieve our intended target.

1. Technical know how -- Yes, even I will call the Kaveri program a sucess because it did reach its intended goal
2. Provide the plane that could replace Mig-21 -- Yes, delayed yes but just 3-4 years only, also with delayed the capability of the plane increases.

Question for you -- Which country is able to build the plane from the scratch plus the institution setups in the country and the engine development running in parallel in 30 years with a mere budget of 1.2 + 2 Billion.
Rafale with decades of experience of fighter building and engine development and already developed institution takes 8 billion for rafale and m88 engine.

So what do we have now
1. Kaveri engine -- on which future engine could be developed
2. Institutions --- More than 100 setup in the country to carry on the development
3. Technical know how -- FBW, FADEEC,Composites,Engine building, Radars building.

There you are right on the money. J-17, J10, a couples squadrons of J-16s, maybe a J_20 or two.
The MKI and Rafales for the J-15+ types and the lost F-16s and LCA sweeping the rest is the idea.
Still . . .
the present and planned battle order of the IAF is not enough. If I was Indian, in exchanged for a realistic
appraisal of the TEJAS, I'd like to be given a bone or two. Bring any program to completion maybe? Fully
sourced Su-30s that HAL can maintain flying ( flying well, safe ideally ) not waiting parked by a plant? How about
that Kaveri engine? When is that due? And the AESA that does not have to translate from Yiddish? ETC.

AMCA is fine for the long run but honestly, India needs a new program now, one that works! Fund an LCA 2.0.
Be coherent but modest in demands, more than TEJAS, less than LCA. Open DRDO to collaboration with
private sector partners. Find tech advisors once and flocking stick by them until a result has surfaced.
ToT? Ask for max transcripts, translated properly, of all and any technical data as per contract. Have your people
peruse it but not your best. Keep those for work within the foreign "teacher" associated teams, be it design or production. Have them sponge up the knowledge and report. Recon is not for dummies as I seem to remember!
That way, your present elite passes on its knowledge and at the same time is rejuvenated; your military industrial
complex refines if not redefines in your case and *cough, cough* possible delays on AMCA are covered.

Slaps on the back are fine when you've won Gold. Qualifying for the final is merely a call to train harder!

Keep your spirits up though! There's room for improvement and no severe urgency, Tay.

P.S. To have at least one on_topic comment : Sweden did a Gripen with loads of mil avia design experience.
India did half of one starting from scratch. Why not build on that? Don't buy Gripen as LCA mark X!
Build Gripen + in your own garage instead?

Why not build Tejas on Gripen because every things comes for the cost and I don't anything significant with the SAAB which could not be developed in the country NOW which SAAB have.

1. FBW --- With 3000 accident free flights we have mastered in FBW, and SAAB have to ran to LM after its two crash.
2. Engine tech -- SAAB don't have any, even less than us.
3. Design experience -- Yes they have experience, but we too have gained with lot of hardwork. And quick turn out and short time and easy maintainability was not what LCA was designing concept, and IAF asked it in year 2009.
4. Radar -- Don't think they will go for it, instead took already developed SELEX MMR, but we have UTTAM AESA radar on development schedule to be developed till 2025.
5. EW Suite -- SAAB have better sensor fussion, but we have our own customized IDAS Mayavi EW suite developed by DARE and looking at the cost what if ADA goes for Cockpit NG proposed by Elbitis.
6. Air craft building -- In this area SAAB have the lead, but at what price. And the country who is producing MKI from raw material, do you think we need industrial know how.
7. Metallagical Knowledge -- Ironically they comes from PSU, but never explore TATA capability, because they fail to understand TATA have undertook the european CORUS who is the supplying military grade metallurgy including submarine, and warship grade steel.

What SAAB is proposing is to drop the LCA and start producing SAAB gripen as JV and I have read many articles published by their Paid writers.

Capabilities

Gripen or Rafale is much capable aircraft than Tejas but are they developed for the IAF specific requirement -- NO
Can the provide them at the cheaper cost to replace the ageing old fleet of IAF -- NO
Does buying them and license produce them with TOT give us Self Reliance -- NO
Does they will integrate Indian subsystems and weapons developed for free -- NO
Does they are capable of our requirement in Indian conditions -- NO Infact Rafale failed in high altitude test in LEH take off with full load in prescribed short length. And does the projected specification of Rafale and Gripen are same in the Indian Conditions with Hot temp vs the ambient environment when engine thrust is drop to 10-12 percentage.

And for your views on Kaveri and Uttam AESA please update yourself tay because India have been working on the AESA modules way around 90s secretly. And for Kaveri pls read my post
what was wrong with Kaveri Engine? | Page 5

And for AMCA which is proposed by ADA, the ADA guys are asking for 2 billion for the development and prototype building, but still funds are not issued for it and do you want us to pay SAAB those 2 Billions for telling us industrial know how, and designing.

I have already written and is again repeating the only OEM that could really help LCA Tejas is Dassault and not SAAB or GE or Boeing or Sukhoi.

4th, 4+, 4++, 5th generation designations are good for forum discussions. when the need arrives what matters is if the plane is worthy enough the opponent or not. If the opponent already employs 5ht gen fighters, how does a 4th gen fighter with external weapons perform?

There is no generation to be franked. And a F-22 could be countered with Mig-21 with better planning and strategy because no battle or war is one to one rather multiple, coordinated, and with tactical strategy.
Pls ellaborate which opponent do you forseek to deploy genuine 5th generation fighter plane that is threatening India in future 10 years. The one on our east, have a much bigger threat to face, thats why they are too desperate. How much time do you think F-35 is going to be matured with FOC and would be deployed in Deagio Garcia threatening Indian Ocean.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I have read again and again about Tejas being delayed. Yep, it may be. But its foolish to not look at the reason.

1. It took 19 years for the first flight => Yes.
But did anybody looks at the fact that
a. The economic situation in early 90s.
Its result was funding almost dried up for this project, and all others except the development of missiles.
b. The sanctions , we were denied a lot suddenly.
c. The experience we had before => Nil.

And now just think it took SAAB 10 years for the first flight despite having a stable economy, government backing, western support and decades of experience of building jets.

 

[Taygibay]

And for your views on Kaveri and Uttam AESA please update yourself tay because India have been working on the AESA modules way around 90s secretly.

How many of each are flying on active front line fighters? ... is what i meant.

But did anybody looks at the fact that ...
c. The experience we had before => Nil.

Yes, check :

Sweden did a Gripen with loads of mil avia design experience.
India did half of one starting from scratch. Why not build on that? Don't buy Gripen as LCA mark X!
Build Gripen + in your own garage instead?

I ended by suggesting that India builds the successor itself, on top of LCA, which I would not have said
if I thought it was unable to do so. Now : let's do it?
In fact, that absence of experience is a big reason to follow my advice. Check in history books or Google ...
how many prototypes Dassault, Saab or Boeing built over the years. It was on those that they built their
expertise, you know?
LCA / plane x / AMCA is a suggestion to remedy that lack. Plus, in training, you always want to end on a success
so that you don't get used to failure.

Good going to all, Tay.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

A good read finally from IDRW

Why India should ignore Sales pitch by Saab on Gripen
Published December 30, 2015
SOURCE: Vishal Asolkar / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Marketing Arm of Swedish defence major Saab India has been campaigning in India even when their offer on sale of Gripen fighter aircraft for MMRCA tender was rejected due to aircraft not meeting Indian Air Forces Air Staff requirements few years back.

Saab India for some years now has been making attempts to sell their Gripen fighter jets in neither in transfer of technology or Joint venture offer even when India’s homegrown LCA-Tejas project has been gaining traction and recently IAF placed an order for 108 improved LCA from HAL.

Latest Sales pitch by Saab on Gripen on the possible collaboration with India to develop the sea version of fighter aircraft Gripen with the transfer of technology. Sea Gripen concept has been floated around for some time now without finding any potential buyer since SAAB has not developed any Technological demonstration aircraft nor has found any backers while India which has developed Naval LCA which has been tested from Shore Based Training Facility for the carrier-borne testing facility.

The Recent development of LCA-Tejas MK-1P now completely negates the need for Gripen or need any external help on the development of MK-2 variant since with fresh orders placed for MK-1P it gives ample space and breather to the developers of MK-2 to work on aircraft to make debut post 2022.

Ministry of Defence (MOD) India also recently cleared LCA-Tejas for Export, Two LCA Tejas will be for the first time will be flown to Bahrain International Airshow to demonstrate aircraft to potential Buyers which directly could affect sales of Saab Gripen which also could be one of the reasons why SAAB is still so pushy and has been repeatedly offering Gripen to India.

Why India should ignore Sales pitch by Saab on Gripen

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @anant_s
All along we said the same think what Mr Asolkar expressed in IDRW article.

 

[Taygibay]

A good read finally from IDRW

LOL! Who's quoted as saying the above, please?

OH? NVM Parikrama, mate; it seems it doesn't count anyhow since :
The information, facts or opinions appearing in the article do not reflect the views of IDRW.ORG and IDRW.ORG does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same. article is for information purposes only and [ are ] not intended to constitute professional advice .
Phew, right?

Why India should ignore Sales pitch by Saab on Gripen

Because If SAAB wants news exposure, they should come out with worthy Brazilian deal updates?
Speaking of which, why don't they?

Later Parik and all, Tay.