considering PAF only operated a handful of f-104 (12 in total to be precise) there was no reason to replace these 12 aircrafts with 63 saab-105s ,
Alright. I didn´t know that PAF had so few F-104´s
also lack of spares supply by US was the aftermath of 71 crisis and came as a surprise
Aha! I didn´t know that USA stopped the spare supplies because of the 1971 crisis. I thought that maybe Pakistan simply had bought a whole lot of spares parts back in the days but that the USA had changed its mind and stopped the resupplies of spare parts long before the 1971 crisis/war. But I have now learned that was not what happen.
...infact the cancellation of saab-105 deals was too as a result of 71 crisis ...
Yes, I know
So, could the reason for acquisition of 64 SAAB 105PAK have been simply to increase the number of aircraft (that could be armed) in the PAF? I guess the leaders i Pakistan 1970/1971 had reasons to believe that there was a risk of conflicts/war the next following months or years.
"After the 1971 war Pakistan again turned towards China to re-supply its air force. PAF ordered two batches of 60 F-6s to replace its F-86s, which were delivered between 1972 and 1977. Along with F-6s - FT-5s were dilivered for advanced pilot training. After the war Pakistan recieved 28 or more Mirage 5s which were ordered before the war, plus the 10 Mirage III RPs ordered after the war. A dozen and a half other Mirages were procured from Lebenon and France to build up numbers."
Thanks.
But I still don´t understand which aircraft type PAF order instead of the SAAB 105PAK when the approval for export was rewoked/recalled sometimes in march-april 1971. As mentioned in the SAAB memories PAF the day after ordered/bought (more) Mirage III. I.e, this order for these Mirage(?) should have been placed sometimes in march-april 1971.
So which aircraft type was ordered/bought in march-april 1971?
Mirage III (from Lebanon and France?)?
Mirage 5?
Some other type?
I wonder, could the actual reason for the rewoked/recalled export aproval and export license on SAAb 105PAK have been the events in East Pakistan that took place on the 25/26 march 1971?
lindberg_emil, Welcome to the forum!
Thank you! Very lively forum, I must say, with lost of answers in short time. Keep it up!
This Saab-105P deal you are asking about was initiated when PAF was evaluating basic and advanced jet trainer aircraft for replacement of US origin Harvad T-6 or as an alternative to T-33 aircraft (as pointed out by Sir Fatman).
The post-1965 war time period was the worst time for PAF, almost all of its fleet had US origin aircraft. From C-130, F-86,F-104, B-57, T-33 to T-37 everything was US and there was no way to survive these sanctions other than looking out for alternative solutions in European or Chinese market.
I'm not sure why the -105P deal never went further, but it seems either there were some political reasons were behind this or the Air Staff Requirements in post-65/71 war era changed . However PAF did received first batch of 5 MFI-17s or Saab Safari/Supporter in 1974 and in few years 92 SKD kits were purchased.
In 1966-67 limited number of Chinese UMig-15s were inducted in PAF, which finally retired in 1980.
PAF in 1975, went for Chinese JJ-5/FT-5 aircraft for fighter conversion role because it was retiring US F-86 and F-104s and even B-57 bombers. The Chinese F-6/J-6 and French Mirage were going to be the two mainstay aircraft; dual seat Mirages or FT-5/FT-6s fulfilled this role and the need for Western origin jet trainer faded away. PAF already had T-33 and T-37s to give enough idea to young pilots about western systems.
Thanks you for this. A piece of PAF history that I didn´t know about (maybe not that strange I live in a country some 5000 km away)
Just to be sure: You are talking about the SAAB 105P (1975), right? Not the SAAB 105PAK (1970/1971)?
So in short:
After the 1971 crisis/war USA put restrictions/sanctions on export of military equipment, including spare parts, to Pakistan. Most of the PAF´s aircraft where of US origin. Therefor PAF had to start looking for replacements on severel of their US aircraft types including F-86, B-57, F-104, T-33, T-37 and C-130 because they had or would soon run out of spare parts for these aircraft. PAF looked for replacements from non-US countries (of course), among these Sweden, China and France. Chengdu FT-5 (JJ-5), based on the MiG-17, was selected as jet trainer (since earlier PAF operated both MiG-19 (F-6) and some MiG-15). In a way you could say that FT-5 was bought instead of the SAAB 105P?
Correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. As you maybe have guessed I will base my text for the book about SAAB 105 partly on the answers given in this thread. So I need to understand you all and the whole situation correctly, in order not to spread false/incorrect information via the book..
I have some additional questions:
Could SAAB 105P really had to come to replace the T-6 Harvard (a propeller trainer)? Wasn´t this in 1975 in some ways alrady replaced by the MFI-17 Safari/Supporter bought a few years earlier?
So PAF managed to continue to fly with the T-33 and T-37 despite the US restrictions/sanctions? Where these not of US origin? Where these still flying in 1975?
The engine, General Electris J85-17B, in export variants of SAAB 105 was of US origin. Could this be one main reasons why they SAAB 105P-deal never went through? Maybe SAAB tried to sell it, but SAAB or PAF suspected or realised that USA would never approve the export and/or the supply of spare parts? Or that SAAB was told by the GE/US that they would never approve the export?
Furthermore, some parts of the avionics and other systems probably where of US origin or was on other ways (for example sub-parts for units ) affected by the restrictions/sanctions against Pakistan.
I it correct that Canadair Sabre 6 was designated F-86E in PAF?
Is it correct that MiG-19 was designated F-6 in PAF?
Was there any other own PAF designations for Mirage III, Mirage 5, Martin B-57, Lockheed F-104A Starfighter, Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star, Cessna T-37 Dragonfly or MiG-15?
