S. Korea dismisses Trump's remark that Korea was "part of China"

[Viet]

Well frankly, it is not so simple.

In the modern Westphalian system it may seem an insult to present a tribute, but it was not so earlier.

There are many reasons for this:

1. China at that time didn't permit anyone without a tributary relationship to trade with China.
2. Trade with China was profitable for most of its tributaries.
3. In fact the tribute itself was profitable for most of the countries. Since the tribute also had a portion where China had to present (as a elderly gentlemen) according to Confucious rituals present its own gift.

Do you think we want trade as gift? That is the last thing on earth we want. No we don't want to be part of tribute system. But we have no choice, because the Chinese force us to be a part of their system.

What do you think the Chinese will do if we refuse?

 

[Speeder 2]

I have pretty good idea about Korea-China history.

Can you tell me during which period is it that you think that Korea was a part of China?



Even this is incorrect.

It depends on what "part of" means.

In the Western modern culture, "part of" generally means , and could only mean, through "annexation" and hence becoming "physically and legally 100% owned". The Chinese tributary system-alike governing /ruling mentality means wider than that definition.

The closest English descriptions related in this case are "protectorate state" or "vassal state". Even under these terms, Korea had been one of, if not THE, China's closest protectorate/vassal state, on and off, for thousands of years, hence could easily be classified as "part of" in the traditional broader Western definition, even assuming without necessary 100% physical and legal ownership of every inch of the land of Korean Peninsula in any particular time period, because in the pre-modern time prior to the emergence of modern concepts of nation-state-legal ownership, the rule of thumb is that all empires did count their vassals as "part of" the empires - no questions about it.

 

[kingfeiq]

Trump's aims will become a reality. he make the whole things that Mr. Xi and China become a focus from N korea and S
Korea! Its him and his team interests as a businessman. Now, he succeed!
Other, about S korea, It is willing to steal all things from history of China, so no discussion, the whole world is belong to S korea , Its the centre of universe!

 

[TaiShang]

Vietnam belonged to third class.

Why so bitter as if China ever dropped several million tons of deadly chemicals on your country - not sure how much you consider it to be your country.

Vietnam definitely belonged to the "first class," if there were such a thing. It was also part and parcel of the Confucius Long Peace, unlike China's westward excursion. You were not considered barbarians because you were/are also Confucian.

Korea also belonged to the same culture family, along with Japan. China had all the means (and incentives) to annex those areas (and those areas were more or less ready for such a unification because they also considered themselves as the Middle Kingdom), but tribute system was considered to be enough for some reason.

At one point, Korea claimed to be the 中国. Hence, the idea/concept of "China" is actually wider than what it politically represents today. "China" is as much a background, comprehensive idea as a political expression of a nation state.

Trump, in a sense, was not entirely wrong.

 

[AndrewJin]

Trump is right.

 

[beijingwalker]

Trump is right.

I start to like this guy now

 

[xunzi]

Trump was technically correct. Historically, part of Korea is owned and controlled by Chinese dynasty. It is an on and off type of control but make no mistake, it is definitely a colony of our ancestor empire. Like Vietnam, they can explain to foreigner better because they are in the same situation as Korea. LOL

 

[kingfeiq]

I start to like this guy now

Trump is a interesting guy . His friends and opponents are not exactly sure that the guy will be stab them in the back at any time.

 

[AndrewJin]

China was once part of Mongolian empire, China belong to Mongolia then.

China has more Mongol than the newly founded country Mongolia which did not exist until 20th century.

 

[beijingwalker]

China was once part of Mongolian empire, china belong to Mongolia then.

We own them much much longer than they owned us in the history. China even today has way more ethnic Mongols than the whole population of Mongolia.

 

[Stuttgart001]

Do you think we want trade as gift? That is the last thing on earth we want. No we don't want to be part of tribute system. But we have no choice, because the Chinese force us to be a part of their system.

Your opoint is partial.
In fact, the Chinese Impire liked other countries to make a tribute to him, and to achieve that goal, China perfered to give back a economic return，which is times more valuable that the tribute .
On the other hand, it is a porfitable exchange for the tributary, which always take advange of it .
The tribute system has regulations on the period of making a tribute and the quantity and content of tribute, which are always ingoranted by the tributaries.
Therefore, they actually pay much more tribute more frequently that regulated so as to get more return from Chinese, which become a huge burden to China Empire.
There were some cases occurred that some merchants impersonated foreign delegate to make a tribute to gain extra profits.
There was a famous violent conflicts between two japanese delegations in order to make the tribute to Ming Dynasty.
All of i said has been recorded in documents of Chinese Dynasty.

What do you think the Chinese will do if we refuse?

That depends on situations.
It is hard for China Empire to transmit its strength to a remote area in most of conditions, duo to the technical status of transportation and communication at that time.

Only an ambious emperor at his empire's height of power could make a dicition to lauch the strike on a remote country, which just made it return to the part of tribute system.

In history, it is China Empire’s duty to help his tributaries when they meet internal or outside crisises.
In Vietnam's history, there were lots of revolts when someone raised up to overthrow the old dynasty and established a new.
At first, the king of the old dynasty could get help from China Empire to restore his rule ,at the same time ,China Empire would not accept the new dynasty which means it's illegal in oritental international society,that could anger the new ruler .
Even on such a condition, the new ruler would not give up the hope to persuade China Empire to recongnize him ,cause he knew China Empire would recognize the status quo at last if he could defeat the old ruler thoroughly and hold the land formidablely.

After Chine Empire gave up the aid to restore the old dynasty, the new dynasty would take the iniative to be a part of tribute system.
Some ambitious ruler may feel a little insulted and shameful ,but he would still do it ,cause it's benefitical for him politiscally and economically.

In last 19th century, Vietnam asked Qing Dynasty for help when Franch tried to colonize the entire Vietnam .
Unforunately, Qing Dynasty got defeated and had to sign an agreement to admit France 's ownership of Vietnam.

 

[kingfeiq]

Cheers!!,drinking up this glass of the river water. bor.

 

[Stuttgart001]

China was once part of Mongolian empire, China belong to Mongolia then.

Yes. It was a short time less than 90 years. At the height of the power, the Mongolian conquered the the entire Asian continent and east Europe.
But most of time, Mongolian bowed down to China Empire, let alone other barbarians.

Korea is different from other tributary, cause it is very close to China.
Korea ranked 1 in all tributaries, meanwhile it was controlled and influenced by China most .

 

[TaiShang]

Trump is a interesting guy . His friends and opponents are not exactly sure that the guy will be stab them in the back at any time.

Very unpredictable, which is not good for their allies who like to see a more stable alliance framework.

Also we may need to consider the fact that Trump is a wordy guy, if his mouth shuts up, his Twitter won't stop.

I really believe he is just having fun in an old age with new found amazing powers. His entire career is one of a troll. A successful troll.

 

[Viet]

Your opoint is partial.
In fact, the Chinese Impire liked other countries to make a tribute to him, and to achieve that goal, China perfered to give back a economic return，which is times more valuable that the tribute .
On the other hand, it is a porfitable exchange for the tributary, which always take advange of it .
The tribute system has regulations on the period of making a tribute and the quantity and content of tribute, which are always ingoranted by the tributaries.
Therefore, they actually pay much more tribute more frequently that regulated so as to get more return from Chinese, which become a huge burden to China Empire.
There were some cases occurred that some merchants impersonated foreign delegate to make a tribute to gain extra profits.
There was a famous violent conflicts between two japanese delegations in order to make the tribute to Ming Dynasty.
All of i said has been recorded in documents of Chinese Dynasty.

That depends on situations.
It is hard for China Empire to transmit its strength to a remote area in most of conditions, duo to the technical status of transportation and communication at that time.

Only an ambious emperor at his empire's height of power could make a dicition to lauch the strike on a remote country, which just made it return to the part of tribute system.

In history, it is China Empire’s duty to help his tributaries when they meet internal or outside crisises.
In Vietnam's history, there were lots of revolts when someone raised up to overthrow the old dynasty and established a new.
At first, the king of the old dynasty could get help from China Empire to restore his rule ,at the same time ,China Empire would not accept the new dynasty which means it's illegal in oritental international society,that could anger the new ruler .
Even on such a condition, the new ruler would not give up the hope to persuade China Empire to recongnize him ,cause he knew China Empire would recognize the status quo at last if he could defeat the old ruler thoroughly and hold the land formidablely.

After Chine Empire gave up the aid to restore the old dynasty, the new dynasty would take the iniative to be a part of tribute system.
Some ambiouse emperor may feel a little insulted ,but he would still do it ,cause it's benefitical for him politiscally and economically.

In last 19th century, Vietnam asked Qing Dynasty for help when Franch tried to colonize the entire Vietnam .
Unforunately, Qing Dynasty got defeated and had to sign an agreement to admit France 's ownship of Vietnam.

Vietnam wants independence. We want mutual respect and equality. Being vassal, paying tribute, bowing down to China run counter to the idea. Vietnam accepts the fate because we have no choice. There is no discussion if someone puts a gun on your head. If considering the military imbalance, a lack of natural barriers between Vietnam and China, nobody should be of nobody's surprise.

No we don't want trade as gift. Do you think we want Chinese porcelain if we knee down?

But there is limit. We want harmony. We want peace and stability with China. But not of all costs.

It is like as if Chinese posters here and there regularly call Vietnamese as monkey and throw banana.

Vietnam accepts if we are placed as second class behind Korea in the tribute system. If China resorts to humiliate her neighbor by placing Vietnam to the third class as same level as to the Khmer Vietnam will quit and prepare for a war. As happened one time in the Nguyen.

There is a red line China must not cross.