S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

[The Raven]

Excellent post and completely on point. Look at how much Iran invests in SAM systems and then look at the state of their air force. PAF has traditionally followed the US/NATO style of air defence doctrine and should continue to do so since we have been lucky to have an air force that can do so.

Exactly!

 

[JamD]

These can be used to simulate the RCS and flight profile of a fighter aircraft. A swarm of these launched against indian S400 units could mimic PAF fighter aircraft profiles at ranges of 200km using RCS enhancement devices, which would rapidly deplete the S400 unit missiles, as well as give away their radar and location data, which can then be used for precise coordinated strikes using a combination of cruise missiles and long range SOW from safe distances.

I would be geniunely surprised if such systems are NOT part of Project Azm.

 

[HttpError]

Pakistan desperately needs HQ-9 to counter this or other Long-Range SAMS. This is a defensive-offensive weapon and requires a similar response.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Excellent post and completely on point. Look at how much Iran invests in SAM systems and then look at the state of their air force. PAF has traditionally followed the US/NATO style of air defence doctrine and should continue to do so since we have been lucky to have an air force that can do so.

Has the S400 system downed a plane or cruise missile as yet?
The Russians were using S300s, Tor, and Buk systems in Georgia in 2008
The majority of surface to air missile systems in use in Syria are the S200s which have been used against drones and manned aircraft. Among those aircraft shot down are F-4 ( Turkey) and F16 ( Israel)
From the rand article above:
" Furthermore, the low-altitude cruise missile threat is not the only threat. The drone attacks on the Saudi oil facilities and the ballistic missile attack on an American airfield located in Iraq in retaliation for the Trump Administration decision to assassinate General Qasem Soleimani are just a couple of examples of the inherent difficulties in effective air defense. In both cases, air defenses were defeated at a fraction of the cost of complex air defense systems that are difficult to operate effectively. The Iranian accidental downing of the Ukrainian airliner is another example of how difficult it is to operate air defense systems and not make tragic mistakes."

The Ukrainians themselves shot down an airliner in an incident on 4 th October 2001 when Siberia Airlines 1812 flight was shot down using a S200 system.

 

[The Raven]

Pakistan desperately needs HQ-9 to counter this or other Long-Range SAMS. This is a defensive-offensive weapon and requires a similar response.

You don't counter a long range SAM system with another long range SAM system, you counter it with HARMS, jamming, spoofing, and long range SOWs. Long range SAMs are defensive systems, and quickly become vulnerable when used offensively. It's why the US has only ever relied on SAMs as defensive systems, relying instead on anti-radiation missiles and stand off weapons to destroy air defence systems. The Russians historically developed long range SAM systems as a last line of defence against ballistic missiles and long range bombers, usually to defend key points of interest, such as the Moscow region during the cold war, they were never designed as offensive weapons.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Pakistan desperately needs HQ-9 to counter this or other Long-Range SAMS. This is a defensive-offensive weapon and requires a similar response.

The S-75 Dvina was an equally fearsome SAM weapon of its era which India inducted in 1963. Pakistan fought both the 1965 and 1971 wars under its threat. In fact the known track record of S-75 Dvina is far more deadly with F-4 Phantoms, F-105s, B-52s, RB57s, U2s and other cutting edge technology aircraft of its era falling to its lethal strike.
Yet miraculously the impact on PAF operations was relatively modest. I wonder if the information how PAF avoided the S-75s is still classified.
A way will be found to defeat the s400s if one hasn't been found already.

 

[Tumba]

I can see OP makes S400 as single node aka single target... almost all modern AD systems use distributed systems which in theory can be placed even 100 kms apart and still work in perfect unison ... and even if couple of nodes taken out the massive AD system works in almost same capability....
its even more true for S400 ...
also Indian poster has already pointed out India fields and will field numerous other systems its true that these systems are not placed at borders but at major strategic installations and wont come online in a border skirmish like we had in 2019...
but do tell me how many strategic installations are kept at border.

Here main and more effective is Air based defence using fighters... the issue here most outlooked is why the hell India use primarily a defensive system to take down PAF assets deep inside its own territory where it has all the advantages...
S400 radars can look deep insides thats the main capability India is getting here as AWACS cant be on every station every time...
And thats what IAF fighters require to understand the battle formations and deploy accordingly...

 

[MastanKhan]

best way to counter Indian S400 is get Turkey + China to handle the EW information

use it to programme our own missiles, basically building our own S400 hunting missiles

also allow our air force to train against these systems in Turkey to develop tactics to avoid them

overall I dont see S400 as a big threat, we can developed two methods

1 - to take them out
2- to avoid them

Hi,

That simple-----. Not really---.

S400 is a big threat---.

 

[mqur1963]

Chinese can help us in this regard.
PAF should send it's assets like F-16, Jeff, Mirage and EW patforms(AWACS/DA-20) to China to develop tactics against S-400.

PAF ALREADY DID IT NO WORRIES

 

[truthfollower]

Its not so simple as you think either,any missile launch from India be it cruise or ballistic will be considered as a nuclear weapon (even if it isnt carrying a nuclear warhead). You think the other side will wait for the missile to hit and see if it was nuclear or not? Obviously they will launch a nuclear missile in return.

how much time we have when nuclear missiles are launched? Will there be time to inform the people of the targeted city? what should we do? take cover in ground floor?

 

[CIA Mole]

i thought indians still haven't got s400?

 

[m52k85]

When a radar paints you, you get a spike on your RWR,if you have an HTS you can also see status of the Radar on your FCR.

There is only one beep per spike
When the radar locks you,you get constant low noise
When the radar lets a missile at you,you get beeping sounds

lol the beep is 90's technology, yes faster beeps imply lock - today, pilots have much more information and are able to identify and geolocate the hostile emitter. The radar emission characteristics change when it switches modes from volumetric scan (search) to track and lock, the RWR is able to distinquish between the two.

The beep afaik is meant to alert the pilot without him having to take his eyes off what he is doing. 90s technology or not, it is still retained because it is useful. Imagine you are in actual air combat...I doubt a pilot will be looking at the nice shiny LCDs instead of the bandit. That's where an audible warning can be life saving.

Gents this business about RWR alerting the pilot is not guaranteed. With the advent of AESA and LPI radars, I imagine RWR effectiveness has gone down. I just did a cursory search, just have a look at the conclusion of the thesis:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36696271.pdf

 

[Rank]

Their so called MINI AWACS ShitU30 can't do jack last year.... they're pussies even S400 couldn't save them... its all about assholes ruling the state and armed forces! Indian armed forces are literally a JOKE for Pakistan in 21 century

 

[The Maverick]

Really good explanation by Pakistan General

Acquasition range 600km
Engage 400km max
5 different missles
5 regiments
costing $5 billion

Considered the best in the world

He explains the impact at strategic tactile level and how it will severly impact PAF response

India can target all of PAF

Really good explanation by Pakistan General

Acquasition range 600km
Engage 400km max
5 different missles
5 regiments
costing $5 billion

Considered the best in the world

He explains the impact at strategic tactile level and how it will severly impact PAF response

India can target all of PAF .......... General as very honest about the impact real gentlemen no bravado just brutal realism

 

[Trailer23]

India can target all of PAF

Well, you better not waste any time then. Since you can target all of PAF in one go means this system is bigger than the Atom Bomb itself.

Q. If the S-400 is answer to all your prayers, then why place orders for more jets, huh?

You've been banned over & over for trolling. Seems like a slap on the right or left cheek isn't enough for you that you keep coming back for more.

[baghairat..., baghairat he rahay ga]​