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Russian Warships Enter Syrian Waters To Prevent NATO Attack

This is obsurd, all nations try to safeguard their interests and allies. Now find a quote where i said otherwise. The issue here is your fanboy statment about 'chest thumping'. Russia sent ships to Syria to insure its intrests. You may interpret that as chest thumping but i'm sure that Russia put alot of though into sending Russian ships into Syria.

Yes, and Russia's interests lie with a tyrant butchering his own people in defiance of intenational condemnation.

If Russia wanted to thump its chest it would just do what NATO does by bombing peasent countries.

You mean like in Georgia?

No one is mentioning any constitutions, so once again, if groups of armed individuals tried to overthrow the Australian government do you beleive that the Australians would sit back and do nothing. There is a reason that all forign leaders are carefuly protected by internal security as well as military; and to internal security or military it does not matter if the threat is forign or demestic, if the president is in any danger they will shoot to kill. Hit, hint just like what is happening in Syria.

And people that try to overthrow governments could care less about the constitutions, the constitutions are like toilet paper to them. So once agin, do you beleive that Syria should let armed criminals kill its military personal and take power?

The Syrian protesters are demanding their right to democracy and accountablity. The questions is: are the Syrian soldiers loyal to the people or to a tyrant?

So your idea of democracy is to bomb other countries or try to topple governments by force. If you feel that way go pick up a gun and storm the Australian parliament if you don't have the guts than surly you won't subject if someone else does, afterall you seems to support what is happening in Syria.

Either you didn't read my post or you fundamentally misunderstand how democracy works. If the Australian government defied democratic institutions, it would be the Australian military itself that would depose the government. I wouldn't have to pick up anything; the military would be supporting the people against a non-democratic government since, as I wrote earlier, the military's duty is to the country (i.e. its people and Constitution), not the government. The government holds legitimacy only as long as it abides by democratic institutions.

You seem to confuse an unelected, tyrannical power structure with 'democracy'.
 
I don't think you understand the power struggle going on in Russia between anti-West people (including but not limited to Eurasianists) and Atlanticists. The Atlanticists managed to get Russia to allow a UN no fly zone over Libya, which NATO promptly used to bomb Libya and carry out regime change by arming the rebels and giving them intelligence. The Russian public reacted very strongly against this and the Atlanticists have lost all their political capital now. This move by Russia to protect Syria is a reflection of that fact.

Are you saying Russia politicans (Eurosianists vs Atlanticists) unstable situations? bring lone-man Putin back? It would not sustain in long terms.
 
this concept of strategic ally historically become a kind of joke especially when its next to russia!

ok lets just forget about humanitarian dimension ( human lives) of this issue and ethical one as well since most of the people here think that its all about a kind of narrative and hegemonic discourse which has no practical meaning or value

the simple fact still remains there! whether assad decides to reform the regime or not its for sure the old good days of his autocratic minority regime will never come back! peaceful demonstrations already entered the new phace which is armed resistance!

I just hope Russia will do more I mean a kind of direct involvement would be great instead of political support and a symbolic gesture! or resistance may try to force them to do so!
the price will be higher but it will fasten the process!
 
Yes, and Russia's interests lie with a tyrant butchering his own people in defiance of intenational condemnation.



Stop ovoiding the topic, how does one butcher his people when those people try to overthrow the government by force. You have to be naive to think that other governments won't do the same. Please do grab a weapond and try to see if you can storm the White House, i can guarantee that a secret service sniper will kill you.


You mean like in Georgia?



Epic fail :lol: Georgia attacked Russian first, Russian peice keeping forces in South Ossestia were attacked well before Russia fired a single shot a Georgia. Your think tank status should be revoked for such blatantly fooloish statments.


The Syrian protesters are demanding their right to democracy and accountablity. The questions is: are the Syrian soldiers loyal to the people or to a tyrant?


And they are also killing Syrian servicemen and trying to topple the government by force. Again should Syria do nothing? Should Pakistan or Australia allow anarchists to topple their governments?
:rolleyes:

If you shot an Australian or Pakistant soldier you should probably expect to be shot back, much like what the protestors are experiencing. As for soldiers being loyal, all soldiers are loyal to their country, not everyone has the same political views just like Democrats or Republicans yet soldiers serve under the same flag.

What gives those 'brave' protestors the right to shoot soldiers serving their country? Are you supportive of anarchists killing Pakistani or Australian soldier?



Either you didn't read my post or you fundamentally misunderstand how democracy works. If the Australian government defied democratic institutions, it would be the Australian military itself that would depose the government. I wouldn't have to pick up anything; the military would be supporting the people against a non-democratic government since, as I wrote earlier, the military's duty is to the country (i.e. its people and Constitution), not the government. The government holds legitimacy only as long as it abides by democratic institutions.

You seem to confuse an unelected, tyrannical power structure with 'democracy'.

I studied the American constitution and democracy :lol: i know it better than you. And your democratic theory is nice---in theory, however, i don't know how well it would hold up in real life. Just like how the PARTRIOT act defies many aspects of the American constitution. And here is something to ponder if the Australian government defied the constitution what makes you think that the Australian military will not defy it? Which brings us back to the topic. And do not try talk you way out of the topic like you have been doing. If the Austrailian military fails to do anything then what? What about Pakistan or any other country for that matter. Never mind hypothetical constitutions, if armed groups of people tried to overtake any government they would be either thrown into prison or killed.

And you know that very well.
 
this concept of strategic ally historically become a kind of joke especially when its next to russia!

ok lets just forget about humanitarian dimension ( human lives) of this issue and ethical one as well since most of the people here think that its all about a kind of narrative and hegemonic discourse which has no practical meaning or value

the simple fact still remains there! whether assad decides to reform the regime or not its for sure the old good days of his autocratic minority regime will never come back! peaceful demonstrations already entered the new phace which is armed resistance!

I just hope Russia will do more I mean a kind of direct involvement would be great instead of political support and a symbolic gesture! or resistance may try to force them to do so!
the price will be higher but it will fasten the process!

Very well said it brother and i mentioned it many months ago those old days r gone forever

TARIQ
 
Not really aggressive, they're defending their interests by supporting Syria's regime. They have a naval base there.

Also I suspect there never really was any desire from most of NATO to interfere in Syria (aside from sanctions) and so Russia is not exactly taking a big risk here for some easy political points.

Not entirely convinced about that , you see most of the strikes NATO has undertaken start with just mere slogans and talk of sanctions , only when US is entirely convinced that its time for some action they go in for the kill , we have seen that in the past too !

Russia is surely not taking a big risk i do agree but from what we have seen from them in the past 20 yrs this is one of their more assertive stands if not aggressive !
 
Stop ovoiding the topic, how does one butcher his people when those people try to overthrow the government by force. You have to be naive to think that other governments won't do the same. Please do grab a weapond and try to see if you can storm the White House, i can guarantee that a secret service sniper will kill you.

Nobody's avoiding the topic; you are begging the question in typical confused, backwards 'logic'.

The Syrian people, i.e. students and ordinary people, demanded their rights in peaceful protests. The situation escalated to armed conflict precisely because the government failed to resolve the matter peacefully. In a democratic system, if sufficient numbers of people demanded reforms, the government would respond by holding a referendum or, worst case, a full re-election.

Your silly flights of fancy into people storming into the White House or Australian Parliament are good for comic relief, but have no comparison to the Syrian situation.

Epic fail :lol: Georgia attacked Russian first, Russian peice keeping forces in South Ossestia were attacked well before Russia fired a single shot a Georgia. Your think tank status should be revoked for such blatantly fooloish statments.

Never mind my statuses. Your propaganda may play with brainwashed Russians, but the rest of the world is well aware of the Russian tricks violating the peace-keeping truce in South Ossetia which prompted the Georgian actions. It was Russia which disturbed the status quo in South Ossetia.

And, in any case, your claim that Russia never bombed a 'peasant country' was shown to be false -- regardless of your fake propaganda justifications.

And they are also killing Syrian servicemen and trying to topple the government by force. Again should Syria do nothing? Should Pakistan or Australia allow anarchists to topple their governments?
:rolleyes:

If you shot an Australian or Pakistant soldier you should probably expect to be shot back, much like what the protestors are experiencing. As for soldiers being loyal, all soldiers are loyal to their country, not everyone has the same political views just like Democrats or Republicans yet soldiers serve under the same flag.

What gives those 'brave' protestors the right to shoot soldiers serving their country? Are you supportive of anarchists killing Pakistani or Australian soldier?

Since you seem unable to understand how democractic societies work, let me explain it to you.

When people in a democractic society engage in a peaceful protest, they are not fired upon by the military. In fact, the mere involvement of the military -- as opposed to regular law enforcement -- is a sign that things have gone way, way, way too far. Any democratic government would be forced to resign long before they can call the military to fire upon their own citizens.

I studied the American constitution and democracy :lol: i know it better than you.

Highly unlikely, given your basic ignorance of the role of the military in a democratic society. Do you have the faintest clue of the role of the second amendment?

And your democratic theory is nice---in theory, however, i don't know how well it would hold up in real life. Just like how the PARTRIOT act defies many aspects of the American constitution. And here is something to ponder if the Australian government defied the constitution what makes you think that the Australian military will not defy it? Which brings us back to the topic. And do not try talk you way out of the topic like you have been doing. If the Austrailian military fails to do anything then what? What about Pakistan or any other country for that matter. Never mind hypothetical constitutions, if armed groups of people tried to overtake any government they would be either thrown into prison or killed.

Good lord, you are so desperate to avoid the point you have let yourself go on a wild goose chase and lost the plot completely!

You started out lecturing about how democractic Australia would react to mass unrest and, now that your silly canard was shown to be fundamentally flawed, you are clutching at straws about Australian military also abandoning democratic principles. You can play that fantasy game to reach any conclusion you like by imagining all sorts of 'what ifs' but the fact remains that, in a democratic society, the military's role is to protect the constituiton, not the government.

Once again, a democractic government has legitimacy only as long as it abides by the constitution. Not that we expect a Russian to have the faintest clue in this matter.

And you know that very well.

What I know is that you are way out of your league talking about democracy. Better stick to the Russian version of 'democracy', where even prominent critics magically disappear or die of radioactive poisoning.
 
You seem to be worried more about Israel, do not worry, Israel will complete Indian defence orders and Syria is not planning to bomb any Israeli Factories working on Indian arms orders.
 
Not sure why russian wants to protect richest dictator with $122B, If russian had to show muscles it would have initiated with Iran providing them with S-300s defying UN-US-NATO. It is more like supporting a falling dictatorial regime the last fort before one other russian asset demise & hits rock bottom.
 
Are you saying Russia politicans (Eurosianists vs Atlanticists) unstable situations? bring lone-man Putin back? It would not sustain in long terms.

None of the sort. I'm just saying that "Russia" as such doesn't have a single stance when it comes to foreign policy. So when you judge an individual action by the Russian government it doesn't mean everybody in Russia supported that action. Of course, I as an anti-imperialist support the Eurasianists in Russia.
 
Nobody's avoiding the topic; you are begging the question in typical confused, backwards 'logic'.



Clearly you are, you keep ovoiding my question and instead are running in circles with your Australian democracy rants.



The Syrian people, i.e. students and ordinary people, demanded their rights in peaceful protests. The situation escalated to armed conflict precisely because the government failed to resolve the matter peacefully. In a democratic system, if sufficient numbers of people demanded reforms, the government would respond by holding a referendum or, worst case, a full re-election.


:lol: wow, this has to be the most ignorant statment yet. Have you heard of all the mass protests in the US? Such as Occupy Wall Street, Washington D.C., San Francisco, Portland, ect. So where is your referendum or full re-election? The only referendumd those protestors are getting is perhaps some pepper spray and a botton. :lol:

How about the National Guard soldiers opening fire on students from Kent State?

Your view of democracy is so distorted that it is beyond rediculous.



Your silly flights of fancy into people storming into the White House or Australian Parliament are good for comic relief, but have no comparison to the Syrian situation.



The only thing that is silly is your brainwashed views. Read the following:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xqDvDw&usg=AFQjCNF6Dwdowc_kwNAuYv208goXY8ilpA


Insurgents in Syria have launched the most audacious attack yet on the seat of power in the capital Damascus, targeting the offices of the ruling Ba'ath party.

Once again you failed to do your homework and now look silly.





Never mind my statuses. Your propaganda may play with brainwashed Russians, but the rest of the world is well aware of the Russian tricks violating the peace-keeping truce in South Ossetia which prompted the Georgian actions. It was Russia which disturbed the status quo in South Ossetia.

And what peicee keeping truce would this be? Let me educate you in the subject. Georgia launched an attack on South Ossetia, while they shelled/bombed South Ossetia the Georgian military deliberately attacked a Russian peice keeping baracks. Forign observers from various countries that were in Georgia/South Ossetia at the time now acknowlede that Georgia was the aggressor. The forign observers also acknowledged that most of the propoganda circulating around the Western media was a lie.



And, in any case, your claim that Russia never bombed a 'peasant country' was shown to be false -- regardless of your fake propaganda justifications.

You just like to make claims up dont you? I suppose this is a lie too?


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...8qTvDw&usg=AFQjCNH0k30rqwManqdyzlKKZ2mnMbgOfA


The independent commission appointed by the European Union to investigate the war between Georgia and Russia last summer has concluded that Tbilisi is responsible for causing the five-day conflict

Or this:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4ojBBA&usg=AFQjCNEx15Jimkr7Nn7ogP7EBHzPLPu6pw

Russian peacekeeping battalion played a major role in the defense of Tskhinvali during the Georgian onslaught. Ten peacekeepers from the Russian JPKF force were killed during the Georgian attacks on the base of Russian JPKF peacekeepers in Tskhinvali

Russian propoganda? More like you've been caught with your pants down.




Since you seem unable to understand how democractic societies work, let me explain it to you.

When people in a democractic society engage in a peaceful protest, they are not fired upon by the military. In fact, the mere involvement of the military -- as opposed to regular law enforcement -- is a sign that things have gone way, way, way too far. Any democratic government would be forced to resign long before they can call the military to fire upon their own citizens..


I don't need to take any lessons from you i studied the subject in college. Kent State also makes you argument mute.

And the military does not fire on peaceful protests? Read:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6cjjDw&usg=AFQjCNHvx6-xPc7wtkAnsDbJSLcEt2hIFA


The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds




Highly unlikely, given your basic ignorance of the role of the military in a democratic society. Do you have the faintest clue of the role of the second amendment?

And what does the second amendment or the right to bear arms have to do with anything? I think you got the first and second amendment mixed up. So let me give you a lesson.

Even in democratic societies freedom of assembly does not give you the right to just protest anywhere. In manny cases people in the US need permits to protest, and if they do not obtain a permit or fail to conform to the law they will be arested, and if deemed nessesary force will be used.

I bet you were also unaware of the fact that even in democratic societies authorization to use deadly force is permited at certain location, heck they even have warning signs stating so. So democratic societies can use deadly force but Syrians can not? Even if government building are under attack? Okay.
 
So that's how india backstabs Russia. No wonder Russia says Pakistan is their favorite partner in South Asia.
Its not backstabbing its accepting reality and I see nothing wrong in it
Dude that is the main difference between India & Pak We dont Have Master slave relationship like of theirs
 
Clearly you are, you keep ovoiding my question and instead are running in circles with your Australian democracy rants.

Actually, you are the one who brought Australia into the debate and are now whining because your quaint notions of democracy turned out to be false.

As for the question, the basic issue is whether the government has the right to use deadly force against unarmed, peaceful protesters.

:lol: wow, this has to be the most ignorant statment yet. Have you heard of all the mass protests in the US? Such as Occupy Wall Street, Washington D.C., San Francisco, Portland, ect. So where is your referendum or full re-election? The only referendumd those protestors are getting is perhaps some pepper spray and a botton. :lol:

The Occupy crowd are a motley group of the perennially homeless, jobless, dateless and generally clueless. The reason no one takes them seriously -- except the police who only get involved to make sure these losers don't disrupt business -- is that this movement has no clear demands. Forget a referendum or re-election, these clowns can't even agree on a cogent set of demands for their 'movement'.

How about the National Guard soldiers opening fire on students from Kent State?

Do you know the subsequent aftermath of this extremely rare event? Do you know that President Nixon personally came down to calm the situation? Do you know that the families of the victims successfully sued the National Guardsmen, the President of Kent State and the Governor of Ohio?

Are you seriously comparing this event to the Syrian situation?

The only thing that is silly is your brainwashed views. Read the following:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xqDvDw&usg=AFQjCNF6Dwdowc_kwNAuYv208goXY8ilpA




Once again you failed to do your homework and now look silly.

All you are showing is that the situation has degenerated almost to the point of a civil war. And that only happened because the dictatorship refused to deal with the situation peacefully. Even the Arab League and Turkey have given up on Assad.

Once again, the issue is the Syrian army's use of tanks and ammunition against civilians in the streets.

And what peicee keeping truce would this be? Let me educate you in the subject. Georgia launched an attack on South Ossetia, while they shelled/bombed South Ossetia the Georgian military deliberately attacked a Russian peice keeping baracks. Forign observers from various countries that were in Georgia/South Ossetia at the time now acknowlede that Georgia was the aggressor. The forign observers also acknowledged that most of the propoganda circulating around the Western media was a lie.

You just like to make claims up dont you? I suppose this is a lie too?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...8qTvDw&usg=AFQjCNH0k30rqwManqdyzlKKZ2mnMbgOfA

Or this:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4ojBBA&usg=AFQjCNEx15Jimkr7Nn7ogP7EBHzPLPu6pw

Russian propoganda? More like you've been caught with your pants down.

Read my post again. I wrote "Russian tricks violating the peace-keeping truce in South Ossetia which prompted the Georgian actions." Nobody's disputing that Georgia started the formal war.

The EU report only claims that the Georgian reaction to the Russian provocations was inappropriate. The provocations I am referring to are the shooting down of Georgian drones by Russian planes, as well as deployment of non-peacekeeping forces into the conflict zone.

2008 Georgia

On May 26, 2008, the U.N. mission [...] confirmed that the Georgian video footage and radar data were authentic and the jet which destroyed the drone was indeed Russian.

The UN report also negates your claim that "Russian peice keeping forces in South Ossestia were attacked well before Russia fired a single shot a Georgia." (http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...aters-prevent-nato-attack-18.html#post2309177)

And, while we are at it, here's an interesting tidbit from the EU report itself.

http://www.ceiig.ch/pdf/IIFFMCG_Volume_I.pdf

Among major powers, Russia in particular has consistently and persistently objected to any justification of the NATO Kosovo intervention as a humanitarian intervention. It can therefore not rely on this putative title to justify its own intervention on Georgian territory

The Russians want to play it both ways. Oh dear!

I don't need to take any lessons from you i studied the subject in college. Kent State also makes you argument mute.

Already addressed Kent State as an extreme aberration. Like Waco, Texas.

And what does the second amendment or the right to bear arms have to do with anything? I think you got the first and second amendment mixed up. So let me give you a lesson.

Not at all. I specifically asked you about the second amendment. I am quite familiar with the Bill of Rights.

Even in democratic societies freedom of assembly does not give you the right to just protest anywhere. In manny cases people in the US need permits to protest, and if they do not obtain a permit or fail to conform to the law they will be arested, and if deemed nessesary force will be used.

I bet you were also unaware of the fact that even in democratic societies authorization to use deadly force is permited at certain location, heck they even have warning signs stating so. So democratic societies can use deadly force but Syrians can not? Even if government building are under attack? Okay.

No sir. Use of deadly force is only authorized against armed opponents posing an immedate danger to life, or those present unlawfully in heavily restricted areas.

The Syrian tanks and army are firing upon civilians in the streets. You will have to try harder.
 
Assad needs to step and Muslim Countries should use there Armed Forces to do it if they can but West should not be allowed to take advantage of Situation at any Cost they are enemies of Muslims and they always support Israel and they think Syria can become danger for Israel so they want to destroy Syria
 
Assad needs to step and Muslim Countries should use there Armed Forces to do it if they can but West should not be allowed to take advantage of Situation at any Cost they are enemies of Muslims and they always support Israel and they think Syria can become danger for Israel so they want to destroy Syria

Before Asad the butcher in Bahrain should step down, may be Muslim armies should be used!
 

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