Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter to Exceed Rivals

[inddef]

Are you kidding me here? You expect China to succeed with J-xx program because they have money but you ignore Russian experience with aeronautics. Buddy, Russia had been super power for about 50 years, you know how? they just kept coming out with new toys.

You keep repeating China would spend more. But India - Russia could spend more as well, as we develop. If we cannot match them, we could add other partners. I highly doubt Chinese could come up with a great fighter just because they have money considering no other developed country assisting them.

India could at least garner avionics and bvraams from Israel or France. But no one is helping China in this regard.

my point is that largely irrespective of what china does, we'd have been better served to go with jsf.

 

[sunny001]

my point is that largely irrespective of what china does, we'd have been better served to go with jsf.

Actually we are far worse if we had gone for JSF. It would just be Client-Owner relationship. We wouldn't have learn a single thing out of it. Also, we don't need JSF to counter China or Pakistan. With PAK FA, you get to work on the project, may be on avionics or on two seat version. Because it's a joint venture, you could tweak with the machine to fit your needs. you can gain lot of knowledge on fighter jets which could ultimately be useful for our own AMCA.

By the way, How do you know JSF would be better than PAK-FA? Did you read a report that we didn't? Were there any tests conducted? Can you absolutely guarantee that Russians would come up with an inferior fighter to JSF.

 

[ptldM3]

Better feature set has been offered on F35 and there is a lot of skeptism over calling T50 a fifth generation figher. It lacks a lot compared to western capability. Russians are notrious for such wet dreams..relics of communism when they dreamed about beating the west.

Jesus, what are those better featrures? When did you get access to clasified information about both fighters?

And be more specific when using vague words such as "lacks a lot". There has been many myths about Russia lagging in this and that, but at the end of the day its fan boy with their vague claims.

Russians are still stuck in the past they are trying to do ultra maneuverability for a 5 gen environment. What they need to focus on is advanced avionics and stealth. Something tells me besides the more stealthy design alot of stuff will be a improved transfer from the SU-35BM.
We will see how it all turns out.

The pak-fa has all new avionics, some avionics are based off of the BM but the BM was only a platform for new technology, in any case the BM has only recently been comming into service.

I didn't see anything special at all from the T-50 prototypes.

And what constitutes as "special"?

Yeah so what if it flew 7 months ago? It displays nothing close to having stealth characteristics. I'm also not the one having wet dreams only 7 months after a test flight.

So you are an expert on 'stealth'? Interesting....but back to the real world, the pak-fa has nearly all of the requirments or basic features of a 'stealth' aircraft, sloped nose, angled fusalage, vertical stabalizers and internal weapons bays, the only feature that needs refinment is the lower fusalage. And a friendly reminder, what you seen flying in January will not be the same pak-fa that will go into production.

Just wait for FC-20. J-10 in itself is a big slap to Russia. Usually China is so dependent on them, yet they produced an Asian F-16 all on their own.

First off all, the J-10 still uses engines imported from Russia, which makes your analogy of a slap in the face mute and utterly laughable. second of all according to Janes Russian engineers helped develope the J-10.

Lastly, what makes the J-10 an Asian F-16? Better yet what on earth is that suppost to mean? Is it as capable as the F-16? Is it produced and exported in large numbers like the F-16?

the chinese defense budget is already 2x russia and will get to 3x or more within 5 years.

russia is the wrong bet in the long term.

Firstly, change your flag, secondly have you ever factored in the Chinese man power and all of the funds it requires? Have you ever factored in the fact that Russia has a well esstablished military complex which has decades of expirience? Have you ever considered Russia's growing economy and increasing military spending? What about the fact that Russia plans to raise its GDP military spending from 2.6 to 3.5.

thats not what i am saying. i am saying that chinese aircraft will almost certainly be qualitatively superior to russians within the next 10-15 years because of the huge funding gap.

the only way to counter this is to buy into top end western r&d by paying top $ with preferably offsets to spur domestic industry and jobs. indo-russian JVs will be underfunded compared to chinese projects in this period.

Not to be disrespeceful to China but the WS-10 has been full of problems and even now it's is questionable weather it is 100% completed, even if it is, it's reliability and service life is also questionable. In any case, the WS-10 is still behind Russian engines, so now the question is, how does China surpass Russia when it still strugles with the basics such as engines?

Remember even in the 1990's when money was scarce Russia still managed to stay competitive, but now, there is money. Moreover, all the money in the world will not guarantee that your technology will be superior let alone equivelant, look at Israel, Israel has a very small budget, yet it manages to create some of the finest equipment on earth, but why? The reason is because many of Israel's scientists came from Russia, Europe oand the USA, thus they brought their invaluble experience.

Moral of the story, Israel relied on brains and not money.

This Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter program seems so dead unlike Raptor or JSF, we are talking about 5 gen program and Russia happens to be second country to come up with, but still....

And it would be dead how......?

Lets review, the first test flight was earlier this year, by now there has been atleast 16 know test flights, another prototype is expected by the end of the year and many systems such as AESA X and L band radars are in the testing phases.

 

[SBD-3]

The way I see it that what most of us dont understand is that 5t gen is not merely designing a stealth shape and advanced avionics....lemme tell you what raptor has
1-Its AC systems are completely monitored by computer, all pilot has to do is to focus on combat. for example, if raptor pilot fires at his target, the computer automatically adjusts the speed and hight and bay open and close time etc of aircraft to optimize the stealth profile.
2- TVC is managed by Computer which automatically adjusts the TVC nozzles to improve maneuverability.
3- plane is stuffed with sensors all around even the skin of plane is a sensor which captures all the available data,automatically process it and all pilot has to do is to take decision.( Russians have Used radars all around to address this but I wonder it will severly hamper the stealth profile as you're less stealthy if you have 5 beacons (raders) on you as compared to one)
4- System controls the maneuverability to sustain in order to prevent AC from going into over G position and thus ensures the long term health of AC.

these are only few things that i witnessed during a documentary on F-22. there is a lot of classified stuff which should not less that marvelous.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Are you kidding me here? You expect China to succeed with J-xx program because they have money but you ignore Russian experience with aeronautics. Buddy, Russia had been super power for about 50 years, you know how? they just kept coming out with new toys.

You keep repeating China would spend more. But India - Russia could spend more as well, as we develop. If we cannot match them, we could add other partners. I highly doubt Chinese could come up with a great fighter just because they have money considering no other developed country assisting them.

India could at least garner avionics and bvraams from Israel or France. But no one is helping China in this regard.

Just because they have experience about airframes and jet engines does not translate into the ability to produce a stealth fighter.

The T-50 will be Russia's first test plane as well as China's first stealth plane.

China has also been a military developer for many years, they were technically awake since 1950 and have been trailing Russia being around 9 years behind in everything.

Red China: Fire Arrow - TIME

China's military budget is also deceptive, they can hire chinese engineers more cheaply (1.3 billion people also means a larger number of top percentile engineers) and produce development supplies more cheaply.

 

[sunny001]

Just because they have experience about airframes and jet engines does not translate into the ability to produce a stealth fighter.

The T-50 will be Russia's first test plane as well as China's first stealth plane.

China has also been a military developer for many years, they were technically awake since 1950 and have been trailing Russia being around 9 years behind in everything.

Red China: Fire Arrow - TIME

China's military budget is also deceptive, they can hire chinese engineers more cheaply (1.3 billion people also means a larger number of top percentile engineers) and produce development supplies more cheaply.

We know buddy, we are not demeaning China, but that doesn't mean that Russia would come up with inferior jet.

Even with a huge population, you need to learn high technology from some where. If it has to be built indigenously, there would be a lot of research, trial and error developments. That's where Russia is ahead of you guys.

China does have human capital because of huge population but same could be said about India with a similar strength in population. In theory, we should also produce lot of cheap engineers too. Finally, one advantage we have is India could garner support from western countries but China can't.

 

[Materialistic]

That is so common. Everyone boasts about their machine. But still the Russians are no where near LM when it comes to boasting.

Boasting but day dreaming is still different. A thing that has hardly flown and a platform that is totally new to the world even America might find problems with their 5th gen later, then how can they say its a success !! Its nothing other than chest thumping.

FGFA (PAK-FA's twin seater version) will focus on more advanced avionics with sub systems from Israel and several European countries integrated into a single machine much like what's been done with the Su-30 MKI.

So, it comes back to the point that we all mentioned, Russia can't match the west in tech, since it is going for their tech and this proves this aircraft isn't completely indigenous too if the above holds true.

And also how can they challenge the USA when they themselves are relying on Israeli and European technology !!!

 

[Jigs]

Just because they have experience about airframes and jet engines does not translate into the ability to produce a stealth fighter.

The T-50 will be Russia's first test plane as well as China's first stealth plane.

China has also been a military developer for many years, they were technically awake since 1950 and have been trailing Russia being around 9 years behind in everything.

Red China: Fire Arrow - TIME

China's military budget is also deceptive, they can hire chinese engineers more cheaply (1.3 billion people also means a larger number of top percentile engineers) and produce development supplies more cheaply.

I always though Chinese policy was just to reverse engineer Russian equipment and gain knowledge. Is that not true ? Just look at the current fighter force. China is behind Russia in R&D by a large margin if they were not behind in this department they would not have turned to such heavy reverse engineering to have a credible fighter force. Which still lacks in the 4th gen department so jumping to 5th gen capability will be pretty difficult for the Chinese seeing as they for the most part have minimal development in a 4.5 gen environment. Which i am sure they will turn to Russians once again for some sort of tech.

Su-27=Russian
J-11=SU-27
Su-30MKK=Russian
J-7=MiG-21
J-10=Lavi program=Israeli program with billions of U.S. investment into the program so the Chinese got the know how of western tech from Israelis which influenced this program.

J-8 was really the only aircraft that saw Chinese research and development but again was based on soviet MiG-21 tech transfer and a number of other factors. The aircraft itself did go into a good redesign phase and made more capable but again the soviet influence was there.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

We know buddy, we are not demeaning China, but that doesn't mean that Russia would come up with inferior jet.

Even with a huge population, you need to learn high technology from some where. If it has to be built indigenously, there would be a lot of research, trial and error developments. That's where Russia is ahead of you guys.

China does have human capital because of huge population but same could be said about India with a similar strength in population. In theory, we should also produce lot of cheap engineers too. Finally, one advantage we have is India could garner support from western countries but China can't.

The USA doesn't share its stealth technology with Europe, why would they share it with India?

Stealth technology is a relatively new field

And russia has only been doing research into stealth technology when they started working on the T-50 during 2002.

Russia has an advantage in well established fields like Aerodynamics, guidance systems, propulsion systems.

But they are starting literally from scratch this time with stealth technology

 

[inddef]

well, thats kinda the crux of what i was trying to say. stealth is a new thing being attempted by both china and russia and for india jsf would've been a surer bet at fielding a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

 

[sunny001]

The USA doesn't share its stealth technology with Europe, why would they share it with India?

Stealth technology is a relatively new field

And russia has only been doing research into stealth technology when they started working on the T-50 during 2002.

Russia has an advantage in well established fields like Aerodynamics, guidance systems, propulsion systems.

But they are starting literally from scratch this time with stealth technology

I wasn't talking about US but of Israel, France, EADS etc. They have helped us with avionics before, they could do it again.

Stealth technology is advanced but there is no reason to believe Russia can't do it yet China can do it. I would place my eggs on russian basket than chinese one. Sorry if that offends you.

 

[sunny001]

well, thats kinda the crux of what i was trying to say. stealth is a new thing being attempted by both china and russia and for india jsf would've been a surer bet at fielding a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

I have already given you the advantages of JV with Russia. We need to worry when Chinese get stealth technology. But there is no reason to believe that China which hadn't build prototype yet would succeed but Russia wouldn't. Based on experience that Russia has, I would bet my buck on Russia than China.

Also, we are only spending $4 billion on R&D. If we do succeed, there's going to be a lot of dividends. Even if we fail, we would have gained a lot of knowledge on fighter Jets which is invaluable in itself. Also that kind of money wouldn't bankrupt our country. And JSF isn't going anywhere, we could buy them whenever we need them.

 

[inddef]

I have already given you the advantages of JV with Russia. We need to worry when Chinese get stealth technology. But there is no reason to believe that China which hadn't build prototype yet would succeed but Russia wouldn't. Based on experience that Russia has, I would bet my buck on Russia than China.

Also, we only spending $4 billion on R&D. If we succeed, there's going to be a lot of dividends. Even if we fail, we would have gained a lot of knowledge on fighter Jets which is invaluable in itself. Also that kind of money wouldn't bankrupt our country. And JSF isn't going anywhere, we could buy them whenever we need them.

india isn't rich enough to risk 4B on development cost and a few years of lag time in induction on a project that might not deliver.

'knowledge of fighter jets' is an abstract silly idea. hal will get mostly software related work on the project and its not going to learn anywhere near whats needed to do an indigenous 5th gen plane.

its much more important to be battle ready. that can't be compromised.

china already has prototypes flying around. we just won't hear about it till they are a couple of years or so from mass production.

 

[sunny001]

india isn't rich enough to risk 4B on development cost and a few years of lag time in induction on a project that might not deliver.

'knowledge of fighter jets' is an abstract silly idea. hal will get mostly software related work on the project and its not going to learn anywhere near whats needed to do an indigenous 5th gen plane.

its much more important to be battle ready. that can't be compromised.

china already has prototypes flying around. we just won't hear about it till they are a couple of years or so from mass production.

$4B are not for nothing. Like I said, there would be a lot of knowledge gain which would value more than what we are spending. You wouldn't get that with JSF. They wouldn't even let us to modify it to fit our needs and on top of that there would be inspections. Remember US is no one's friend. It makes friendship for need. When there won't be a need, they couldn't care less of India. Which is why we need our own Jet, something that could be built in our own country.

Also,4B is not todays money. They are meant for research including Indian research, for next 7-8 years. I am pretty sure, military budget could accommodate it. We don't need to draw special amount for it.

Considering how much they spent on LCA, Arjun etc, I think this is the most intelligent investment they have ever made.

 

[inddef]

$4B are not for nothing. Like I said, there would be a lot of knowledge gain which would value more than what we are spending. You wouldn't get that with JSF. They wouldn't let us to modify it to fit our needs.

Also,4B is not todays money. They are meant for research including Indian research, for next 7-8 years. I am pretty sure, military budget could accommodate it. We don't need to draw special amount for it.

its not just about the 4B. its also about the added risk of not having a proper 5th gen fighter at the end of the process. this risk is a major risk because failure would be a big security compromise and a setback of 5+ years on plans to induct a true stealth fighter.

plus 4B is a big amount for india no matter what. there are lots of other projects that could be funded with that money.

we're not going to get much intellectual property with pak-fa either (we'll continue to heavily depend on russia after this).

i see your point, but i think i am risk averse in matters of defence.