Russia Welcomes China Peace Plan, Says It Is Open to Talks

[Oldman1]

If Ukraine refused this plan, it should brace up for the full strength attack from Russia, the door for peace will be forever closed

Wait are you saying the Russians are only using a fraction of their power? Wow!!!

 

[Mista]

Wait are you saying the Russians are only using a fraction of their power? Wow!!!

Don't you know? Wars are like anime battles.

Russia be like: "Heh, amusing Ukraine-kun. You actually lasted more than 3 hours and made me use 20% of my power. I will show you my true power now." And then Russia will power up and release it's inner Nine-tails beast to ravage over Kyiv.

^

That is why Russia had to resort to mobilization lmao.

 

[beijingwalker]

Wait are you saying the Russians are only using a fraction of their power? Wow!!!

US also had a draft during Vietnam war, did it mean US used its full strength on Vietnam?

 

[jhungary]

Also Ukraine side should be aware that the mentioned plan B that if Ukr loses then Poland + Nato forces annexing Ukraine under Nato control can actually be plan A of their major supporters. That can be why they push for escalation continiously and give false hope of victory to Ukr side giving as much damage to Russia in expense of Ukraine in the process. Just a food for thought. Are they sure of that and some of their leaders motives? If their officials wont wake up in time it can be too late for them as an independant nation.

A basic framework for ceasefire can be reached with a buffer demilitarized zone between sides monitored by Un. There can be security guarantees like Ukr not stationing long range weapons in Sumy that can target deep inside Russia. Or similar measures like Ukr not obtaining long range weapons bms cms and fighter jets for a time period of some years until things cool down. After ceasefire a Minsk 3 like protocol can take place giving some admin to Ukraine in zaporijia kherson as demilitarized zones with time after all requirements of agreement are met.Remember there were documented ethnic killings in 2014 and presence of extremist groups that none can deny. An agreement and demilitarized zones are necessary. Depending on Russian Ukranian negotiations if these go well maybe other areas like donetsk can join the process as well. Crimea is Russian red line I think. There was no Ukr military presence in Crimea before 2014 anyways. There were no military conflict Crimea in 2014 it had more connections with Russia than with Ukraine. They can repeat referandum many times the result wont change just like Kosovo. Ukraine or any other country cant be forced to recognize it but this situation should be accepted. Also if demilitarised zones are militarised again by Ukraine Russian forces in Crimea would be a deterrant and vice versa. Also there is no land connection to kherson zaporija other than Crimea and smaller Donetsk. Also Russia is aware that Minsk2 was used to rearm Ukraine to strike back and it wont work this time it will be closely monitored.

Meanwhile this conflict showed some issues like importance of pgms and never flying below 6-7km. Importance of drones and specialised sigint anti-radar sead forces inside airforce and ensuring air superiority before land entry. Russia will take the lessons and things wont repeat again hopefully.

This is not going to happen, exactly because EU cannot deal with Russia alone, if they annexed Ukraine, then they would have to fight the russian themselves. EU at this stage is not at any position to do anything after year of neglect on their military.

5, maybe 7 years later, maybe, but at this time, the best bet for EU is to hope that Ukraine props up Russian military and stop and weaken Russia by days, you need a centralized government and big population to fight Russia, Ukraine is that prime candidate, if they loses Ukraine, they would have to deal with both the refugee and Russian aggression themselves.

That is a big no-no for EU right now. That's why they basically go all out on Ukraine. There will not be peace talk either Ukraine being absorbed into NATO (ie giving them NATO membership) or Russia let go of Ukraine.

China leading the world and leaving the US in shambles.
Nice!

How so??

If anything, this proposal show Chinese weakness. Because they want to keep Russian interest but appear to be respect territorial integrity.

The plan itself is a joke, unless what China really means for land that occupied by Military Invasion is legitimate sovereign integrity, Point 1 basically go against Point 2 to 12....because for 1 to happen, Russia have to vacate every inch of Ukrainian soil even before 2014. Otherwise, any point is going to go against that, and none of the point requiring Russia to pull back their troop to pre-war demarcation.

 

[jhungary]

I disagree. I believe the opposite is true. Russians have just shot their second load for the new fangled offensive - and it has failed to hit the mark.

Ukraine is now preparing its offensive and they tend to be more succesful.

The only was Russia can be saved is if China starts supplying weapons to Russia. It will be a big decision to take for China.

EU has so far resisted placing sanctions on China like the Americans want them to do as part of Americans plans to try and contain/throttle China.... If China does supply weapons to Russia - then EU sanctions will follow against China. Just what USA wants.

China has a BIG decision to make soon ... let Russia fail or let its economy face the wrath of EU sanctions if it decides to try and bail out Russia...

This "peace deal" is an attempt to avoid that decision point ...

BIG decision time for China.. BIG ..

Actually, I doubt even with Chinese equipment there would be any different.

Russia is done, unless China is willing to send 1000+ tanks to Russia and hundred of fighter jet, that is not going to change anything, and if they did so, then China can kiss their dream of reunification goodbye.

Even so, there is a training gap between Russian troop, as I said time and again, if the Russian start mobilising back in June last year, they can scrum up good 300,000 trained troops to start this summer offensive, instead what they are doing is throwing everything in Bakhmut, which I still dont know why. The chance to turn the battlefield to their favour has come and gone, unless Russia can somehow manage to mobilise another 300,000 and keeping them at bay and trained them up before Ukraine coming summer offensive when all the Western Tank is ready. There aren't much Russia can do at the moment.

 

[bilibili]

I disagree. I believe the opposite is true. Russians have just shot their second load for the new fangled offensive - and it has failed to hit the mark.

Ukraine is now preparing its offensive and they tend to be more succesful.

The only was Russia can be saved is if China starts supplying weapons to Russia. It will be a big decision to take for China.

EU has so far resisted placing sanctions on China like the Americans want them to do as part of Americans plans to try and contain/throttle China.... If China does supply weapons to Russia - then EU sanctions will follow against China. Just what USA wants.

China has a BIG decision to make soon ... let Russia fail or let its economy face the wrath of EU sanctions if it decides to try and bail out Russia...

This "peace deal" is an attempt to avoid that decision point ...

BIG decision time for China.. BIG ..

This game boy playing an online PVP game at home thought the war was like a computer game, thought that as long as west keep investing resources, just like the marine 50g in StarCraft, ukraine can continue to produce soldiers and resist Russia forever.

Look at Zelensky's current response, ukraine has reached its limit, he needs a chance now to get out of sleepy joe control

 

[vizier]

This is not going to happen, exactly because EU cannot deal with Russia alone, if they annexed Ukraine, then they would have to fight the russian themselves. EU at this stage is not at any position to do anything after year of neglect on their military.

5, maybe 7 years later, maybe, but at this time, the best bet for EU is to hope that Ukraine props up Russian military and stop and weaken Russia by days, you need a centralized government and big population to fight Russia, Ukraine is that prime candidate, if they loses Ukraine, they would have to deal with both the refugee and Russian aggression themselves.

That is a big no-no for EU right now. That's why they basically go all out on Ukraine. There will not be peace talk either Ukraine being absorbed into NATO (ie giving them NATO membership) or Russia let go of Ukraine.


How so??

If anything, this proposal show Chinese weakness. Because they want to keep Russian interest but appear to be respect territorial integrity.

The plan itself is a joke, unless what China really means for land that occupied by Military Invasion is legitimate sovereign integrity, Point 1 basically go against Point 2 to 12....because for 1 to happen, Russia have to vacate every inch of Ukrainian soil even before 2014. Otherwise, any point is going to go against that, and none of the point requiring Russia to pull back their troop to pre-war demarcation.

If Ukraine is defeated even with full support it gets and east Dnieper taken by Russia or no power left in Ukraine to defend there then Poland Nato forces can annex Ukraine west of Dnieper and offer ceasefire to Russia. They calculate that Russia would also be weakened and depleted that time although Ukr manpower would be sacrificed completely giving Nato the upper hand for a long time. It can take some years but sacrifice of Ukraine seems to be what is planned by Nato. Russia also does not want conflict to grow with Nato and would be keeping the areas. Final situation would be tense but not immediately leading to war somewhat like Poland taken between Germany and Soviet Union in ww2. Maybe in return Nato offers no missiles installed in annexed parts of Ukraine for ceasefire.

 

[jhungary]

If Ukraine is defeated even with full support it gets and east Dnieper taken by Russia or no power left in Ukraine to defend there then Poland Nato forces can annex Ukraine west of Dnieper and offer ceasefire to Russia. They calculate that Russia would also be weakened and depleted that time although Ukr manpower would be sacrificed completely giving Nato the upper hand for a long time. It can take some years but sacrifice of Ukraine seems to be what is planned by Nato. Russia also does not want conflict to grow with Nato and would be keeping the areas. Final situation would be tense but not immediately leading to war somewhat like Poland taken between Germany and Soviet Union in ww2. Maybe in return Nato offers no missiles installed in annexed parts of Ukraine for ceasefire.

Well, again, any division of Ukraine will not be in EU best interest, they needed Ukraine as a whole to fend off the Russian.

Half of what Ukraine (that is given if Russia can take it) does not work, it will only ends up Russia taking up the entire bit and EU have to fight for themselves. Bear in mind it take Russia 8 years from Crimea to move on the rest of Ukraine, they may or may not have what it takes now, but no one can guarantee what will happen in 8 years.

That is the reason why EU, not the US, is basically the party keep breaking the boundary, they were the first one to send Western Howitzer, SPG, MLRS and tanks (UK started the whole thing with their challenger 2) They know if Russia is not stop in Ukraine, they will have to face Russia themselves, that would cost them multiple fold of money and resource if they took Western Ukraine as their and fight off the Russian themselves than simply just giving the Ukrainian money and equipment to fight on their behalf.

 

[Meengla]

What China has proposed is not a peace agreement - but a surrender document for Ukraine - lets NOT kid ourselves.

Russia should leave Ukraine - and all of Russia's problems will be solved.

You are right. It is a surrender document. No sovereign govt can and should accept that.

But you know what?? Barely a year ago, the situation wouldn't have come to that. Russians had explicit demands which were not only reasonable but also good for Ukraine. Why they were not heeded by Ukraine then?? Why??!! Yes, a 'sovereign' nation has the right to make alliance but then wasn't Cuba also a sovereign nation in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis?? You prick a big power and you get swatted down like a mosquito!! Morality and 'international order' or 'sovereignty' have nothing to do with the world affairs--especially not since G. W. Bush, with able support by most Congessmen/Senators from both parties, illegally launched the Iraq War in 2003.

So reap the harvest which you had sowed. And when it's all said and done in this war, Ukraine will still not join NATO as long as the war is going on and as long as Putin is the leader of Russia! Perhaps Zelensky should have waited until Putin died of natural causes??!!

PS. I believe Zelenskyis the latest example of the famous Kissinger saying that to be America's friend can be fatal. That saying is exaggerated but does have some truth!!

 

[Meengla]

If Ukraine is defeated even with full support it gets and east Dnieper taken by Russia or no power left in Ukraine to defend there then Poland Nato forces can annex Ukraine west of Dnieper and offer ceasefire to Russia. They calculate that Russia would also be weakened and depleted that time although Ukr manpower would be sacrificed completely giving Nato the upper hand for a long time. It can take some years but sacrifice of Ukraine seems to be what is planned by Nato. Russia also does not want conflict to grow with Nato and would be keeping the areas. Final situation would be tense but not immediately leading to war somewhat like Poland taken between Germany and Soviet Union in ww2. Maybe in return Nato offers no missiles installed in annexed parts of Ukraine for ceasefire.

I am glad you brought it up. Poland's own territorial ambitions are not often talked about in this war. Only Colonel Doug Mcgregor keeps bringing up the Polish angle and how the boundaries of Europe were again and again drawn by wars and he thinks this war is nothing new for Europe in redrawing boundaries.
Bloody tribals! Well, keep your damn wars to yourself! You already caused two World Wars and are on a path for another one. But spare the poor countries who are already suffering!

 

[vizier]

Well, again, any division of Ukraine will not be in EU best interest, they needed Ukraine as a whole to fend off the Russian.

Half of what Ukraine (that is given if Russia can take it) does not work, it will only ends up Russia taking up the entire bit and EU have to fight for themselves. Bear in mind it take Russia 8 years from Crimea to move on the rest of Ukraine, they may or may not have what it takes now, but no one can guarantee what will happen in 8 years.

That is the reason why EU, not the US, is basically the party keep breaking the boundary, they were the first one to send Western Howitzer, SPG, MLRS and tanks (UK started the whole thing with their challenger 2) They know if Russia is not stop in Ukraine, they will have to face Russia themselves, that would cost them multiple fold of money and resource if they took Western Ukraine as their and fight off the Russian themselves than simply just giving the Ukrainian money and equipment to fight on their behalf.

The new Chinese peace framework should well appeal to Eu then. For Usa it would be better for Eu to spend much for their weapons though and a much weaker but still a threat Russia. Chinese initiative is good especially if there is option like demilitarized zones in both Ukranian controlled areas and areas that are currently controlled by Russia integrated gradually to Ukraine administration with a new Minsk like agreement framework that would develop gradually and timely.

Crimea is a red line and just like Kosovo independence. It is another issue. When it appeals western interests they made Kosovo gain independence. But when it does not appeal their interests and some cultural distance exists in Ukraine issue they looked the other way while killings happened. There shouldnt be double standards.

But it seems some airbase is bombed in Belarus today as an escalation attempt to stop Chinese initiative and that should hint the side that do not want the conflict to end. There can be other escalation attempts as well especially towards Crimea these days.

 

[jhungary]

The new Chinese peace framework should well appeal to Eu then. For Usa it would be better for Eu to spend much for their weapons though and a much weaker but still a threat Russia. Chinese initiative is good especially if there is option like demilitarized zones now controlled by Russia integrated gradually to Ukraine administration with a new Minsk like agreement framework. Crimea is a red line and just like Kosovo independence. It is another issue. When it appeals western interests they made Kosovo gain independence. But when it does not appeal their interests and some cultural distance exists in Ukraine issue they looked the other way while killings happened. There shouldnt be double standards.

But it seems some airbase is bombed in Belarus today as an escalation attempt to stop Chinese initiative and that should hint the side that do not want the conflict to end. There can be other escalation attempts as well especially towards Crimea these days.

The Chinese plan do shit.

On paper it would work, only Russia drop the claim, even so, you cannot enforce that anyway, as I said, that plan does not touch the core issue of Ukraine integrity. Follow that plan, I can bet you dollar to donut Russia will come again over the border 3 or 4 years down the road. That is the core issue. That plan works for Russia, not Ukraine, because there is no framework on how Ukrainian sovereignty integrity is preserved, and there is no security guarantee.

The problem for the current situation is, if you want to address the issue for BOTH SIDE, not just for Russia. Then you need to address both issue, setting aside what kind of or sort of national integrity Ukraine can accept, there are no trust at all between Ukraine and Russia, which mean there are no security guarantee that Russia will not invade again even after this agreement is signed. But one of the "Point" is calling the west to lift Russian sanction in exchange for peace talk, that's not gonna happen, because that would just mean you give time for Russia to rearm and regroup and come again.

As I said, whether or not Ukraine want to cede territories in exchange of cease fire is another issue, for "Peace" there HAVE TO BE some kind of security guarantee so this will not happens again, and the only way is to accept Ukraine into NATO, would you think Russia is okay with that? This is not about double standard, nor culture, nor people, this is about the existence of Ukraine.

 

[vizier]

The Chinese plan do shit.

On paper it would work, only Russia drop the claim, even so, you cannot enforce that anyway, as I said, that plan does not touch the core issue of Ukraine integrity. Follow that plan, I can bet you dollar to donut Russia will come again over the border 3 or 4 years down the road. That is the core issue. That plan works for Russia, not Ukraine, because there is no framework on how Ukrainian sovereignty integrity is preserved, and there is no security guarantee.

The problem for the current situation is, if you want to address the issue for BOTH SIDE, not just for Russia. Then you need to address both issue, setting aside what kind of or sort of national integrity Ukraine can accept, there are no trust at all between Ukraine and Russia, which mean there are no security guarantee that Russia will not invade again even after this agreement is signed. But one of the "Point" is calling the west to lift Russian sanction in exchange for peace talk, that's not gonna happen, because that would just mean you give time for Russia to rearm and regroup and come again.

As I said, whether or not Ukraine want to cede territories in exchange of cease fire is another issue, for "Peace" there HAVE TO BE some kind of security guarantee so this will not happens again, and the only way is to accept Ukraine into NATO, would you think Russia is okay with that? This is not about double standard, nor culture, nor people, this is about the existence of Ukraine.

Guarantor issue can be negotiated. Some Eu countries that are also in Nato like France and Germany may accept it as a solution without getting Ukraine into Nato. Ukraine is also in Eu admission process as an economic coalition as well. Also the costs would be enormous for Russia to reinitiate the attack without valid reason as the situation is not the same as pre-war for Russia. No need to mention it will be harder to do against guarantor countries that have at least some European connection left with Russia like France and Germany. At the end Russia always wanted to see itself connected to Europe as well as Asia before this conflict.

Lifting of sanctions can be gradual instead of prequisite as the new Minsk like process evolves.

 

[Meengla]

ut it seems some airbase is bombed in Belarus today as an escalation attempt to stop Chinese initiative and that should hint the side that do not want the conflict to end. There can be other escalation attempts as well especially towards Crimea these days.

The focused, ceaseless drive to get the enormous Russian natural resources go back over a century! There was no reason then other than lusting after the Russian natural resources which motivated the Capitalists of the West to side (and indeed raise/prop ) the Mensheviks against the Bolsheviks. You may or may not like the Bolsheviks but the Russian civil war was an internal matter in the 1910s and beyond/before that. What right did the Western power had to militarily intervene on behalf of the forces which were aligned with the discredited, cruel, dying Tsars?? There was not even the League of Nations then to authorize such foreign intervention. The motivation then was greed for resources, the motivation after 1991 was greed for resources, and the motivation now is greed for resources.

 

[jhungary]

Guarantor issue can be negotiated. Some Eu countries that are also in Nato like France and Germany may accept it as a solution without getting Ukraine into Nato. Ukraine is also in Eu admission process as an economic coalition as well. Also the costs would be enormous for Russia to reinitiate the attack without valid reason as the situation is not the same as pre-war for Russia. No need to mention it will be harder to do against guarantor countries that have at least some European connection left with Russia like France and Germany. At the end Russia always wanted to see itself connected to Europe as well as Asia before this conflict.

Lifting of sanctions can be gradual instead of prequisite as the new Minsk like process evolves.

I don't think that would work, seeing there were "Security Guarantee" between US, UK and Russia which all 3 abandoned Ukraine and Russia is the one invading. EU admission does not guarantee defence security. As I said, I can't see how or why Ukraine will think Russia will stop or can stop after ceasefire reading the situation after 2014 and 2022 after both Budapest Memorandum and Minsk II.

I don't think, as a logical person, Ukraine would take anything other than NATO membership as security guarantee. On the other hand, I don't see how NATO will not include Ukraine into NATO after this war, I mean, they literally gave Ukraine everything NATO has, all the equipment (bar from fighter jet and warship) are all NATO standard, they are also sharing NATO protocol and intelligence capability with Ukraine, they are training the Ukrainian to NATO standard, so far you can almost say Ukrainian Troop and NATO troop are one and the same. It would be stupid to exclude Ukraine and have it go back to Russia influence, or worse, Chinese influence, I mean, that's only logical, if NATO don't protect Ukraine, Russia is the one attacking, Ukraine will MOST DEFINITELY go into Chinese camp if they offer security guarantee. It would have been a major loss to NATO. It would have been an intel treasure trove to Russia or China (same, same) if Ukraine fall into one of those hand now.