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Russia spat delays BrahMos air version

we already know that we have to do alone every thing.
no body will involve himself with anybody,if anybody does it,it will be with benifits.
we have started to develop our own but untill then we are importing the crtical weapons which we dont have.

and one more thing is that israel helped india in crucial time in kargil war so we can rely on them atleast:D

Well, but Indian would benefit the most from siding with the US. But I understand many Indians believe that Russia is India's BFF and would continue to distrust the west and hold on to USSR.
 
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Almost all these things you talk about require foreign components. He was talking about entirely being capable of producing it yourselves.

you have any clue on cost benifit analysis.. first of all we do all the design while we give the tender to the external companies for manufacturing as per our requirement.. because the cost of setting up the industry will be more than the product cost.. you have no clue on what is global industrialization ....
 
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Well, but Indian would benefit the most from siding with the US. But I understand many Indians believe that Russia is India's BFF and would continue to distrust the west and hold on to USSR.

Well we believe Russia is our Best Friend... What they want is money.. they dont say no to us.. thats all.. Well read the report properly that changes in MKI is possible from HAL side and they have actually submitted the proposal to DRDO... it is only the contract that forbids doing it.. Well MKI has most of Indian components in it.. while FGFA will have indian Frame also.. we lack in industry but we will catch up soon or latter.. India abids by the contract and will do anything lawfully w.r.t to the contracts
 
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Well we believe Russia is our Best Friend... What they want is money.. they dont say no to us.. thats all.. Well read the report properly that changes in MKI is possible from HAL side and they have actually submitted the proposal to DRDO... it is only the contract that forbids doing it.. Well MKI has most of Indian components in it.. while FGFA will have indian Frame also.. we lack in industry but we will catch up soon or latter.. India abids by the contract and will do anything lawfully w.r.t to the contracts

Sounds like the Russians got India in the balls and Indians just have to fork out the doughs.
 
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That is because Indian is military does not trust the indigenous hardware. Maybe time will change but as of now, India need to rely on foreign assistance for quality weaponry such as Brahmos or modify its planes to carry this missile. But my main focus was not that India cannot build most of its weapons, but that if India develops a closer relationship with either US or Russia, then the relationship can mature beyond just a business relationship. As of now, India straddles between Russia and the US. And this is actually counter productive when purchasing weapons as all the transaction between India with US and Russia are all business relationships only. If anyone still believe that there is a special relationship between India and Russia (such as between US and Israel or your buddies China and Pakistan), hope this thread have waken you up from your dream.

Totally baseless statement.

In fact, exactly opposite has been true. During Cold-war times, Russia has always kept their most elite projects open for its cold-war ally India. Even China wasn't trusted that much and merely has remained as buyer. On other side, Russia has assisted India in setting up almost EVERY major R&D base in India, from ship-building, submarines, helicopters etc. and even today its Russia who is providing test-bed for most critical R&D project(Kaveri).

Also, not to mention Uranium and massive nuclear power reactor R&D assistance/consultancy. Which other country on earth helped India with that?

It is India who has failed to make use of all these opportunities and focus on R&D projects since beginning. Indians never gave priority to R&D and instead became LAZY and complacent because of "easy" and "availability" of weapons from Russia. Not to mention, corruption and visionless decision-making in IAF, Army and blind faith on Russian imports and ignoring developing own R&D capabilities, is exactly what has caused the mess India is in today.

Why blame Russia? It is the Indian decision-making which was way too complacent and living under the age of convenient Russian imports. India never focused on developing domestic R&D base as priority.

In fact, Russia has been Godfather of India all these decades(even if Russian-haters hate to admit this) and India has been all complacent all these decades. Hopefully, India will use PAK-FA sensibly and not repeat mistakes of being happy with foreign partners and not developing its own parallel fifth Generation aircraft programme domestically, based on inputs from PAK-FA.

And talking about Brahmos spat, then Russia is original developer of Su-30 so it has a right to ask payments for modifications to original design. Now if Boeing or some european firm asked for such payment on some modification project, MoD wouldn't blink & will pay even double. But since Indo-US nuke deal, lot of Russia-haters has raised their ugly head in MoD.

My thousand thanks to Russia for giving a kick in India's balls. If you can't modify Su-30 yourself, then better go and become a puppet of USA. You deserve that.

Writing on the wall is very clear - "Russia has stopped babysitting. Grow up and stand on your own feets. If you need to go back to Russia for every modification, then you are nothing but a tin-bag power. Better move your as* and develop your own capabilities instead of asking for being babysit. Even pony nations like Israel can modify Su-30 for fitting a missile of their choice. What those think-tanks in Mod are? Tin-bag babies?"

Now its for MoD if they read this clear message.
 
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slightly off topic about that Carrier deal.

Russian carriers are really a mix of half-heavy missile cruiser and half aircraft carrier. In the India carrier deal, is India going to receive missile compliment along with the carrier?


GORSHKOV%20CVHG%2002a70v.jpg


No. The missile section is removed to create extra space which will be utilized for extra aircrafts as well as one or two VLS sections of Barak Air Defence Missile






The "missile" section of the carrier was redesign to be a flattop. The redesign cost how Russia screw India. I remember it include a hooker finding out the cost that India is willing to pay and Russia just name the price.

GORSHKOV%20CVHG%2002a70v.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Don't indulge in loose talk. INS Vikramaditya is not a flat top (If you know what it means in the Naval parlance;)).

In fact building a ski ramp ( if you know what a ski ramp is;)) and converting this carrier to a ski jump type was one of the biggest tasks for the Sevmesh Yard.



Yeah that makes sense because Russia is not willing to export the P-500 Basalt missiles which provides the main punching power of ships like these.

Now a days, the airwing of a carrier forms it's main punching power and not the AShM. And the MiG 29k will pack quite a punch.

Also, the ships in the carrier escort group will carry Brahmos which is better than Bazalt in every aspect except range.

The reason for Russia removing the Bazalt from Vik are two

1. MTCR does not allow sell of Bazalt as it's range is >300km (550km to be precise)

2. The heavy missile loadout lead to stability issues during rough seas, so removing them will lead to a more stable ship.
 
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Writing on the wall is very clear - "Russia has stopped babysitting. Grow up and stand on your own feets. If you need to go back to Russia for every modification, then you are nothing but a tin-bag power. Better move your as* and develop your own capabilities instead of asking for being babysit. Even pony nations like Israel can modify Su-30 for fitting a missile of their choice. What those think-tanks in Mod are? Tin-bag babies?"
I just didn't get, why we went to them in the first place. What have they learn from ToT ?// Are they really learning from ToT or its just a myth ?? We have got ToT from Jaguar to Su30 but nothing on ground. I doubt what we will gain from MMRCA. HAL will receive parts and they will assemble it.

I think if we have really learned from these ToT, then its time for us to apply them for all future upgrades of Su30 and if not, then its time for us to rethink our policy on technology transfer because we pay so much in the name of ToT and we don't even gain anything from that.
 
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I just didn't get, why we went to them in the first place. What have they learn from ToT ?// Are they really learning from ToT or its just a myth ?? We have got ToT from Jaguar to Su30 but nothing on ground. I doubt what we will gain from MMRCA. HAL will receive parts and they will assemble it.

I think if we have really learned from these ToT, then its time for us to apply them for all future upgrades of Su30 and if not, then its time for us to rethink our policy on technology transfer because we pay so much in the name of ToT and we don't even gain anything from that.

TOT means that he source of transfer still hold the right to the technology. The receipient of the technology has no right to do anything with them without the consent of the source. At least not officially
 
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TOT means that he source of transfer still hold the right to the technology. The receipient of the technology has no right to do anything with them without the consent of the source. At least not officially

That's not how that works. With ToT HAL gets experience into how components work. Now they CAN impliment this knowledge into designing other components. They don't have to pay one penny in terms of royalty.
 
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That's not how that works. With ToT HAL gets experience into how components work. Now they CAN impliment this knowledge into designing other components. They don't have to pay one penny in terms of royalty.

But TOT knowledge is beyond just understand how the product is finally created and assembled. TOT does not transfer all the other trial and error that comes with developing the product itself. Also, a country might not be able to absorb the technology and build upon the technology. For example, we can teach a backward tribe still in the stone age how to smelt iron to make iron tools. But it doesn't mean that they can absort the knowledge of metalluragy and take the technolgoy to the next level and create steel. Also, this is just an example of have TOT doesn't guarantee that the knowledge of progress can be transfered. I'm not saying that India is in stone age.
 
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But TOT knowledge is beyond just understand how the product is finally created and assembled. TOT does not transfer all the other trial and error that comes with developing the product itself. Also, a country might not be able to absorb the technology and build upon the technology. For example, we can teach a backward tribe still in the stone age how to smelt iron to make iron tools. But it doesn't mean that they can absort the knowledge of metalluragy and take the technolgoy to the next level and create steel. Also, this is just an example of have TOT doesn't guarantee that the knowledge of progress can be transfered. I'm not saying that India is in stone age.

Most of the knowledge recieved in terms of ToT are in areas where we have tried, but not succeeded to make something at the western level. So we do have the errors. We do have the experience. This last bit will smoothen the edges. About taking tech further solo, in my opinion this is not something India should be even aiming for. Because of our neutral cold war status we are the only large country that is open to all tech. Soviet and western. So the right way to progress is with JVs and MoUs.. For example, we started Arjun solo.. Look how much it was delayed. We should be looking to go for state of the art, cutting edge JVs. Eventually we will reach the point where we will be completely self contained.
 
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But TOT knowledge is beyond just understand how the product is finally created and assembled. TOT does not transfer all the other trial and error that comes with developing the product itself. Also, a country might not be able to absorb the technology and build upon the technology. For example, we can teach a backward tribe still in the stone age how to smelt iron to make iron tools. But it doesn't mean that they can absort the knowledge of metalluragy and take the technolgoy to the next level and create steel. Also, this is just an example of have TOT doesn't guarantee that the knowledge of progress can be transfered. I'm not saying that India is in stone age.

This is the worst example of tech transfer ,its not even transfer,its more like licence production of smelt iron.

TOT comes in play precisely when the receiver is in a position to absorb the technology and go to next level.
 
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Most of the knowledge recieved in terms of ToT are in areas where we have tried, but not succeeded to make something at the western level. So we do have the errors. We do have the experience. This last bit will smoothen the edges. About taking tech further solo, in my opinion this is not something India should be even aiming for. Because of our neutral cold war status we are the only large country that is open to all tech. Soviet and western. So the right way to progress is with JVs and MoUs.. For example, we started Arjun solo.. Look how much it was delayed. We should be looking to go for state of the art, cutting edge JVs. Eventually we will reach the point where we will be completely self contained.

That is actually what I had stated many times already. But I was under attack by many of your countryman for "trolling" for proposing what you proposed. I also brought out how Arjun and LCA was delayed when Indian go solo with these projects. As usual, I was attacked. Its nice to see someone from India agree that India should focus on JV for important cutting edge projects or get Israeli assistance. Of course, any Israeli assistance can be count as American assistance. :usflag: Given how Israel exists off American largess
 
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This is the worst example of tech transfer ,its not even transfer,its more like licence production of smelt iron.

TOT comes in play precisely when the receiver is in a position to absorb the technology and go to next level.

Can you provide me an example of how India develop a weapon system because of TOT. I cannot think of any. Given that India has not done much with the TOT tech. Its just a way for the guys to get more kickback in my opinion. The money spend on TOT should be use to increase the quantity if nothing is going to be done with TOT. Or as the anti Indian trolls would say, use it to create more toilet. I do not agree with trolling but it was funny the first time when I read it.:P
 
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