Russia opposes a military action against Pakistan

[Vinod2070]

>]I take that as a compliment. We Pakistani allow Russia to sell you rusty Ghorskov. About smoke and ACM... It was thrust. Not smoke issue. So aswering is something but facts is something else.

Great, I didn't know Russia needed Pakistan to allow them to sell their stuff to India!

Shame you can't allow them to sell to Pakistan and need detours to sell even old stuff!

 

[daredevil]

>]
I take that as a compliment. We Pakistani allow Russia to sell you rusty Ghorskov. About smoke and ACM... It was thrust. Not smoke issue. So aswering is something but facts is something else.

But the point remains same. India has nothing to lose from those engines, in fact it is quite the opposite. Regarding Gorshkov, when did Pakistan has leverage on Russia, your statement is completely laughable.

Will ou join the crying of please do not deliver...???

All that matters whether you are getting it or not

We will see... India has been buying everywhere... But it takes three decades before it really happens. By that time Pak will have Jxx.

At least we are working on something and we have the infrastructure to develop. Jxx, I hope it doesn't remain an 'X' forever.

 

[S-2]

"Did you even read my full post?"

Every damned word. Why?

Here's some WMD for you-

De-classified NGIC WMD Findings

Duelfer Report-Iraq Survey Group

Those 500 rounds are hardly what we thought we'd find, but there they were nonetheless-chemical and in Iraq's possession.

Further, Saddam belatedly noted after declaring his nation WMD free that 500 rounds were missing. There they are. Degraded, unusable but still deadly- and Iraqi.

Did he make WMD? Chemical weapons for sure.

Had he used WMD? Heard of "Chemical" Ali? The shia and kurds sure have. He's about to hang and is sure to find God's retribution in eternal hellfire.

Did Saddam intend to do so if allowed? Read the Duelfer Report and learn about his deception and vision.

This was an evil man with deadly and irridentist ambitions in the most important energy region of the world.

Please don't shed tears over his demise. The Iraqis aren't.

 

[roadrunner]

We're not discussing the mujahideen. We're discussing where the Soviet Army was positioned. You've stated, baldly, that they chose these areas to AVOID combat and roadmarched, evidently, their regiments to battle over great distances routinely just to find and engage the pashtu enemy from safe cantonments.

Horseshit. Ask fatman17 just how easy it is to roadmarch a tank battalion over ANY distance. Even once after an extensive maintenance stand-down. He'll tell you it doesn't matter. They'd STILL lose vehicles. Those vehicles were positioned where they were anticipated to be used. If you've EVER roadmarched in a mechanized force more than fifty klicks at a time you'd know just how many vehicles the maintenance teams sweep up from the trail position.

This is all really educational, but you're still positioning your troops in a minefield. You should watch some of the Soviet movies on Afghanistan sometimes. There were many other methods of troop transportation heck they even had big helicopters with guns, amazingly that could take the fight to the Mujahideen.

If you understood the 40th Army's mission you'd also know that they occupied those regions with the express intent of conducting operations IN THOSE regions, and did so routinely. The Soviet Army didn't avoid fights. Once they decided to go to Afghanistan, they did so looking for a fight.

I still want your C.V. and for whom you "comment". roadrunner, I believe that you're a self-important poseur and I'm smelling bullsh!t all the way Mr. think tanky.

The Soviets did look for fights. They wiped out whole villages in fact when they were losing one. It wasn't particularly difficult. However, the heaviest fighting in Afghanistan was in the East in the provinces neighbouring Pakistan. The Soviets did not have bases here, and when they took an outpost the Mujahideen would simply reoccupy it.

The bases were located well out of range of these high intense fighting areas. This is a simple fact. if you need a link then I'll get you one later, but you're simply wrong if you think that the Soviet bases were located in the intense fight regions. Outposts were put up, and that's about all.

 

[SSGPA1]

Daredevil and other Indian friends:

There is nothing wrong with RD 93 and if there is something wrong with it then IAF should ground all MiG 29.

Different variants of the same engine are used in jets (MiG 29 etc) for the IAF.

As far as the F-16s are concerned, they are still better than the MiGs in IAF inv.

NOW GOING BACK TO THE DISCUSSION WHICH IS RELATED TO THIS THREAD!

India will eventually buy US jets because businesses from the US have invested so much money in Bangalore etc and it is payback time.

Russia and India have not been able to finish off Gorshkov deal yet and other military deals are peanuts ($1.2 B for MI) but Russia is interested in the big order for the next generation aircraft which they realized last year will be given to the US.

Russia needs access to warm waters and now Gawadar will serve the purpose for both Russia and China.

So the shift is only natural. Russia needs its economy to thrive; fortunately Pakistan and China are realistic options.

 

[S-2]

Thanks for the offers of links but they can't supercede the Russian General Staff's opinion of where and why their motor rifle divisions were positioned where they were.

Tracked vehicles are positioned in the proximity of their anticipated battles and many of the Soviets vehicles were located in areas that had little Pashtu legacy.

THAT's the point, remember.

You owe me a C.V.

I'm waiting, Mr. commentator.

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks for the offers of links but they can't supercede the Russian General Staff's opinion of where and why their motor rifle divisions were positioned where they were.

Tracked vehicles are positioned in the proximity of their anticipated battles and many of the Soviets vehicles were located in areas that had little Pashtu legacy.

THAT's the point, remember.

You owe me a C.V.

I'm waiting, Mr. commentator.

Quote me the link where it says the Russian General Staff or whatever said that the most intense fighting was in Bagram or where any of the bases not in the East were located. You won't be able to, because the most intense fighting was in the East, not the West, not the south, and not the North (Panshir Valley had some intense fighting but mainly due to its strategic position). Funnily enough they didn't have a base in Pashir Valley either.

 

[S-2]

"the Russian General Staff or whatever said that the most intense fighting was in Bagram"

They never specified where they considered fighting most intense nor did I. You're the one who called it a Pashtu war here-

"The Pashtuns defeated the Soviets. Some of them were Pakistanis, some were Afghanis."

Remember? So inaccurate as to be laughable but convenient to the Pakistani narrowly conceived narrative.

"...or where any of the bases not in the East were located."

THE SOVIET-AFGHAN WAR: How A Superpower Fought and Lost- The Russian General Staff. ed. Lester W. Grau & Michael Gress, University Press of Kansas 2002, pg. 16.

"Funnily enough they didn't have a base in Pashir Valley either."

And where the Panjishar ends, Bagram begins, marking the front lines of the N.A. in October 2001. Strategic and very much NOT pashtu.

One separate Motor Rifle BRIGADE H.Q. in Jalalabad, another in Kandahar, and one AIRBORNE Div H.Q. in Kabul. See the difference? MRD H.Q.s in Kunduz and Shindand prove that plenty of fighting occurred in non-pashtu portions of the country.

Here are the names of non-Pashtu based mujahideen resistance groups-

Islamic Society (JIA)—Jamiat-i-Islami was founded by a Tajik, Burhanud-din Rabbani, who fled to Pakistan in 1974. His most famous commanders were Ahmed Shah Masood in the Panjshir valley and Ismail Khan in Herat Province. The party is primarily moderate fundamentalist and dominated by ethnic Tajiks, but has Uzbeks and Pashtun in its ranks. Its recruits came from the religious and secular government schools and northern Sunni religious schools and northern Sufi brotherhoods. Its strength was in northern Afghanistan. It had members throughout Afghanistan but was particularly strong in Lowgar, Samangan, Faryab, Farah and Nimroz provinces.

Islamic Union for the Liberation of Afghanistan (IUA)—Ittihad-I-Islami was founded by Abd Al-Rab Abdul-Rassul Sayyaf. This used to be called the Etehad-e Islami (EIA) until 1981. The faction is militant fundamentalist and anti-Shia. In the mid-1980s, they again changed their name to the Islamic Union of Afghanistan. The IUA was heavily financed by the Wahhabi sect out of Saudi Arabia. Sayyaf was known for recruiting motivated Arab youths for jihad in his organization.

Revolutionary Council of the Islamic Union of Afghanistan-Shura-i Inqilab-i Ittifagh-i Islami-i Afghanistan was a traditionalist Shia party led by Sayyad Beheshti. It recruited among the Hazara peasants and social elite. Many defecting Afghan Army officers led its ranks. It had wide support in the Hazarajat and Ghazni Province.

The Islamic Victory Organization of Afghanistan-Sazman-i Nasr-i Islami-yi Afghanistan was a radical Islamist party led by a council that recruited from young Hazara who were educated in Iran. This pro-Iran party was headquartered in Daykundi.

Islamic Movement (HI)--Harakat-i-Islami was founded by Ayatollah Asef Muhsini in Iran as a Shia faction. The party has a traditional Islamic orientation. It recruited educated Shia from all ethnic groups. Its most famous commander was Mohammad Anwari who fought in the Turkmen valley west of Kabul.

Army of the Guardians of the Revolution--Sepah-i Pasdaran is a radical Islamist party led by Akbari and Saddiqi. It had very close ties with the Iranian government. It had few fighters but drew from clerics who were disaffected with Behesti’s Shura.

You've now become a tiresome and pedantic poseur. Long overdue on that C.V. Mr. Commentator, to the point I could now care less about that or this conversation. You've not proven crap and I'm no longer here for your fcuking satisfaction. Do your own research. Your discourse is in great, great need.

 

[roadrunner]

"the Russian General Staff or whatever said that the most intense fighting was in Bagram"

They never specified where they considered fighting most intense nor did I. You're the one who called it a Pashtu war here-

"The Pashtuns defeated the Soviets. Some of them were Pakistanis, some were Afghanis."

Remember? So inaccurate as to be laughable but convenient to the Pakistani narrowly conceived narrative.

"...or where any of the bases not in the East were located."

THE SOVIET-AFGHAN WAR: How A Superpower Fought and Lost- The Russian General Staff. ed. Lester W. Grau & Michael Gress, University Press of Kansas 2002, pg. 16.

"Funnily enough they didn't have a base in Pashir Valley either."

And where the Panjishar ends, Bagram begins, marking the front lines of the N.A. in October 2001. Strategic and very much NOT pashtu.

One separate Motor Rifle BRIGADE H.Q. in Jalalabad, another in Kandahar, and one AIRBORNE Div H.Q. in Kabul. See the difference? MRD H.Q.s in Kunduz and Shindand prove that plenty of fighting occurred in non-pashtu portions of the country.

Here are the names of non-Pashtu based mujahideen resistance groups-

Islamic Society (JIA)—Jamiat-i-Islami was founded by a Tajik, Burhanud-din Rabbani, who fled to Pakistan in 1974. His most famous commanders were Ahmed Shah Masood in the Panjshir valley and Ismail Khan in Herat Province. The party is primarily moderate fundamentalist and dominated by ethnic Tajiks, but has Uzbeks and Pashtun in its ranks. Its recruits came from the religious and secular government schools and northern Sunni religious schools and northern Sufi brotherhoods. Its strength was in northern Afghanistan. It had members throughout Afghanistan but was particularly strong in Lowgar, Samangan, Faryab, Farah and Nimroz provinces.

Islamic Union for the Liberation of Afghanistan (IUA)—Ittihad-I-Islami was founded by Abd Al-Rab Abdul-Rassul Sayyaf. This used to be called the Etehad-e Islami (EIA) until 1981. The faction is militant fundamentalist and anti-Shia. In the mid-1980s, they again changed their name to the Islamic Union of Afghanistan. The IUA was heavily financed by the Wahhabi sect out of Saudi Arabia. Sayyaf was known for recruiting motivated Arab youths for jihad in his organization.

Revolutionary Council of the Islamic Union of Afghanistan-Shura-i Inqilab-i Ittifagh-i Islami-i Afghanistan was a traditionalist Shia party led by Sayyad Beheshti. It recruited among the Hazara peasants and social elite. Many defecting Afghan Army officers led its ranks. It had wide support in the Hazarajat and Ghazni Province.

The Islamic Victory Organization of Afghanistan-Sazman-i Nasr-i Islami-yi Afghanistan was a radical Islamist party led by a council that recruited from young Hazara who were educated in Iran. This pro-Iran party was headquartered in Daykundi.

Islamic Movement (HI)--Harakat-i-Islami was founded by Ayatollah Asef Muhsini in Iran as a Shia faction. The party has a traditional Islamic orientation. It recruited educated Shia from all ethnic groups. Its most famous commander was Mohammad Anwari who fought in the Turkmen valley west of Kabul.

Army of the Guardians of the Revolution--Sepah-i Pasdaran is a radical Islamist party led by Akbari and Saddiqi. It had very close ties with the Iranian government. It had few fighters but drew from clerics who were disaffected with Behesti’s Shura.

You've now become a tiresome and pedantic poseur. Long overdue on that C.V. Mr. Commentator, to the point I could now care less about that or this conversation. You've not proven crap and I'm no longer here for your fcuking satisfaction. Do your own research. Your discourse is in great, great need.

I might come back to this later, don't know, but I'll take a couple of obvious points.

Firstly, Bagram was just North of Kabul. The Pashtuns form the majority of the population in and around Kabul, though Bagram was located in a predominantly Tajik area. It's true that Bagram was close to the Panjshir Valley, but it was also close to the Pashtun areas in the East. Panjshir was a difficult area to conquer, not because the fighters were any good, but because the Salang Pass terrain made it difficult to conquer (the Taliban had the same problem later).

Bagram was located in a Tajik area that was safe for them (they could hold the field, they could not hold it in the East).

As for Massoud providing intense fighting, you're simply wrong.

In 1981 and then 1982, and then again in 1983 Massoud cut deals with the Soviets and stopped fighting.

In 1981 and again in 1982, Massoud had stopped fighting, in exchange for Soviet offers of food, money and guarantees that the Red Army would leave his villages alone. This is an argument routinely enlisted by Massoud supporters to justify his war record. To carry that argument to its logical conclusion, we see that such actions prolonged the war by allowing 40th Army troops to be relieved of duty in the Panjshir and free to kill Afghans elsewhere, not to mention to facilitate the free-flow of war materiel to Soviet military units. For the entire occupational decade, Massoud remained in the service of his Russian patrons.
RAWA.ORG: The Afghan Who Wouldn't Fight (Ahmad Shah Massoud and links with Russians)

Massoud actually was protected by Soviet bodyguards, which is only reinforces what Gramov had said regarding Massoud cutting deals with the Soviets and staging sham skirmishes to make it look as though he was fighting the Soviets.

"It was also of concern to the Agency that Massoud employed Soviet airborne commandos as his personal bodyguards. According to A.Fedotov, former CPSU and currently chief of the Ukrainian successor agency to the KGB, the SBU, the names of two bodyguards have been revealed, Islamutdin and Isometdin respectively."

Why would he allow th Soviets to guard him if they were his enemy?

The sham skirmishes that Massoud created with the Soviets were affirmed by the head of the KGB, Sherbarshin

"A fact corroborated by the head of First Department KGB, Leonid Shebarshin, in his account of the Soviet/Afghan War, "The Hand of Moscow." Shebarshin characterized the fabled Panjshir offensives as fiction. "

According to Gramov's own words, "Massoud sometimes used to stage sham skirmishes with the Russians to put off chances of suspicions about his activities among other Mujahideen groups."

Massoud is a fictitious war hero created for public consumption, and the Russians have said as much.

 

[solid snake]

The simple reason Russia appears to be going neutral is because India is heavily gravitating towards the US. All that we need for the beginning of true Pakistan-Russia friendship is for the IAF to order their 126 planes from the US. I am happy to see the Russian ambassador stating that 'hard evidence' must be produced by India, that is something not even the US has said, that ***** Condoleza Rice yesterday said that 'Pakistani elements' were involved in the Bombay attacks.

 

[roadrunner]

and S-2, I hope you're not going to tell me next that Abdul Rashid Dostum brought down the Soviet Army.

btw. Jammat-i-Islami was the group commanded by Massoud (he was their military commander). I'm sure you knew this, given your credentials.

The rest of those groups you've mentioned were either insignificant or splinters.

The main groups, were Massoud, Dostum, Hekmatyyar. Out of these 3, Massoud and Hekmattyar were the main threats to the Soviets, the Ghilzais in the East were the ones who did the most fighting when Massoud had brokered truces with the Soviets in order to resupply their armies in the East.

 

[Flintlock]

I fail to discern any shift in Russian policies towards Pakistan.

The fact that Russia opposes military action on Pakistan is no surprise. No country wants a war in the subcontinent.

India has been taking a firm stand, but apart from rumors and speculation and "Hoax calls", there have been no military threats coming out of Delhi.

Those who see this as a policy shift are indulging in wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

 

[S-2]

Insurgent groups? Hmmm...some say yes, some say no. I think yes.

More? No doubt. Some suggest about 300 active commands at one time or another during the Soviet-Afghan war so room for plenty.

Looked at your link. I know two things- 1.) RAWA operates from Quetta with a questionable and eclectic agenda and, 2.) there's a circular loop that can't be independantly confirmed.

Oh, here's a third- so what? Deals are part and parcel to the landscape. We can comfortably agree that Massoud carried sufficient cachet to garner significant Soviet attention. As to the claims of bodyguards, perhaps. There's reason to believe, though, that he received support from the Soviet and then Russians following their withdrawal.

C.V. forthcoming, Mr. Commentator?

 

[roadrunner]

Looked at your link. I know two things- 1.) RAWA operates from Quetta with a questionable and eclectic agenda and, 2.) there's a circular loop that can't be independantly confirmed.

Based in Quetta? Is that where Bruce Richardson is working now? Funny place for a renowned author, but you can never tell.

Here's one of his books seeling for $100 dollars. Surprised he's in Quetta, given how much his book is selling for.

Afghanistan: Ending the Reign of Soviet Terror

Btw, the Rawa links are not written by Rawa, they're a collection of articles.

There's links to the Soviet bodyguards of Massoud given. I have no reason to suspect Richardson would be lying in his book on this, but it's possible to get hold of Fedotov's book also perhaps.

 

[S-2]

"I hope you're not going to tell me next that Abdul Rashid Dostum brought down the Soviet Army."

He didn't?

Last I heard he was a very willing accomplice to their efforts during the war.

Helluva guy. Makes a great heir to the legacy of Genghis Khan, Attilla the Hun and other notable past luminaries of restraint and forebearance.

"btw. Jammat-i-Islami was the group commanded by Massoud (he was their military commander). I'm sure you knew this, given your credentials."

Knew? All I know from that is that you're not closely reading my posts-

"Islamic Society (JIA)—Jamiat-i-Islami was founded by a Tajik, Burhanud-din Rabbani, who fled to Pakistan in 1974. His most famous commanders were Ahmed Shah Masood in the Panjshir valley and Ismail Khan in Herat Province. The party is primarily moderate fundamentalist and dominated by ethnic Tajiks, but has Uzbeks and Pashtun in its ranks. Its recruits came from the religious and secular government schools and northern Sunni religious schools and northern Sufi brotherhoods. Its strength was in northern Afghanistan. It had members throughout Afghanistan but was particularly strong in Lowgar, Samangan, Faryab, Farah and Nimroz provinces."

Let's put this away. The above points clearly that you're not paying attention.

The absence (still) of your proffered C.V. indicates you have none of note. I rendered mine in good faith. You dissemble and obfuscate, Mr. Commentator. I can no longer ignore my lingering impatience and would prefer to remove you from my near-term agenda. At least with this discussion.