Russia is ready to develop jointly with Turkey a long-range air defense ...

[BordoEnes]

Dont get excited, Russians arent exactly thrustworty in this area. No to long ago, S.Korea was about to sell there KP-SAM to Peru (Which uses Russian Seekers and systems), Russia treathened S.Korea with a law suit if they didnt pull out of the competition. This was done so there Igla MANPAD could win. Imagine this as a scenario when Turkey enters a competition, and the S-300 happens to enter it to (Which it always does).

Their idea of a joint venture was explained long ago, this article is just to hype people up. Its basicly technology tranfer, local production and quality service. The Turkish Chassis is probably the BMC 8x8 Truck.

 

[ALTEMUR]

Does "export version" mean it's a monkey model? Is it inferior to S-300?

 

[BronzePlaque]

So I want to hear your opinions guys...Which one should we go for?? Patriot System, S-400, Chinese HQ9(FD2000) or SAMP/T Aster 30? @cabatli_53 @BordoEnes @LegionnairE
Only from military perspective, lets skip the political perspective, outcome etc etc

 

[Ir.Tab.]

In my opinion, Turkey should launch a co-program of an advanced system to be operational within the next 5 years which has the later specification:

1- The missiles should be operational on TF-2000, too. The missiles in such system could be something like land based "SM6 and ESSM" or vertical launched versions of "TAAHD and PAC3". The missile requirements for 6 TF-2000 AAW frigates and land batteries will made it feasible to produce the missiles in Turkey.
2- This system should be effective at least against mid-range ballistic missiles. (This may lead to a more different kind of missiles like Arrow 3"
3- The system should be effective against other aerial targets.

The cost of such a program will be more than the twice of current budget for TLORAMIS. But I do not think buying 80 missiles and 4 batteries of current systems could change the situation for Turkey

 

[olcayto]

Paolo Valpolini*Istanbul: As one of the two most credible contenders for the estimated $4 billion T-Loramids Turkish contract, Eurosam is taking part in the IDEF 2013 exhibition in Istanbul showing on its stand a Launch Module and an Engagement module belonging to the Italian 4th Air Defense Regiment, the Italian unit which is now operational with the consortium Samp/T system.“We are happy of the strong support to our proposal given byFrance and Italy,” Antonio Perfetti, Eurosam Chairman delcared at the press conference organised on May 8th, “which materialised in the visit to our stand from the Ambassadors of the two countries.” Should Turkey chose the European system, a series of opportunities should arise, that might go well beyond the simple participation of the Turkish industry into the programme. Eurosam does not foresee a simple transfer of technology to Turkey, but looks at the co-development of future upgrades. Full transparency was given to Turkish authorities regarding the three anti-ballistic missile tests conducted until now, both by the consortium and by the current customers of the system.Turkish companies would eventually provide subsystems to the consortium, and they would become full partners in any other export contract. Eurosam would also transfer simulation capabilities to Turkey, which would allow the nation to fully exploit the system. “The Turkish industry has shown in recent years an extraordinary learning capacity” Perfetti said, “and it possesses a high technical quality.” As for a potential participation of Turkey into the Eurosam consortium the chairman said that the consortium was the result of a MoU between French and Italian governments, and that a solution will have to be found at governmental level.However a new instrument aimed at protecting intellectual property would be needed. No forecast on a date for the decision was made, “but we are sure that Turkeywill take a decision,” Perfetti said.

IDEF 2013: Eurosam strengthens its position for T-Loramids | Armada

 

[Ir.Tab.]

The only point I do not like about Eurosam is that aster-15 could not be quad packed like ESSM or PAC3.

Consider a TF-2000 with 50 vertical launch system. 40 cell are occupied with SM2, there is 10 cell remained. you could put 40 ESSM missile on that 10 remained cells.

In contrast development of an advanced missile like aster-45 which is gonna be effective against mid-range ballistic missiles sounds promising!

 

[BordoEnes]

So I want to hear your opinions guys...Which one should we go for?? Patriot System, S-400, Chinese HQ9(FD2000) or SAMP/T Aster 30? @cabatli_53 @BordoEnes @LegionnairE
Only from military perspective, lets skip the political perspective, outcome etc etc

Russian offer is the best IMO no doubt. The thing that worried me the most was on how to integrate a eastern systems into our NATO standart air defence network, the greek still have problems with the S-300PMU-1. However if we follow in the footsteps of S.Korea with there K-SAM (Marriage between Russian systems and western chips), this problem would be solved and we would have quality Long range air defence systems and network.

The Chinese offer the same, as much lower price nontheless, but they have yet to prove the quality and lethality of there system. Eurosam had a tempting offer with full technological tranfer, but the systems was inferior to the rest in term of specs, and had the same problem with Chinese.

@Ir.Tab.

Whats your openion?

 

[twilight]

well , just a off topic ....

look like you Turks really like Uchiha and Madara .... right !?

 

[olcayto]

Although Eurosam is more inferior then the PAC or s-300. In terms of business they are probably giving the best deal.
So it's really op to the preferences of Turkey.

Turkey should not forgot it's a 4 billion $ deal and use it as a leverage to get a better deal, which they have done splendid throughout the whole process.

 

[LegionnairE]

screw Eurosam the french piece of sh.t I never trust a french missile after the Eryx freak show. Chinese HQ9 isn't a proven platform either there's no point in paying money for it. We might as well spend that money on R&D.

I believe we must use this tender as a leverage to get SM2s and SM3s. If Americans agree on SM3s' GENESIS integration we should go for PATRIOT systems.

If that doesn't work out we should definitely give the tender to Ruskies. I'm with @BordoEnes on this one, S400 is the best system in the tender.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

Russian offer is the best IMO no doubt. The thing that worried me the most was on how to integrate a eastern systems into our NATO standart air defence network, the greek still have problems with the S-300PMU-1. However if we follow in the footsteps of S.Korea with there K-SAM (Marriage between Russian systems and western chips), this problem would be solved and we would have quality Long range air defence systems and network.

The Chinese offer the same, as much lower price nontheless, but they have yet to prove the quality and lethality of there system. Eurosam had a tempting offer with full technological tranfer, but the systems was inferior to the rest in term of specs, and had the same problem with Chinese.

@Ir.Tab.

Whats your openion?

You are talking about combat proven systems which is the most important aspect when you are at danger!

None of them is as combat proven as US made systems. Even the testing procedure for development of US made systems is enormous. For example check the tests for THAAD. There is a fact that S300 was operational during NATO war on Balkan. As Turkey may chose S300 I stop right here.

If Turkey wants to develop an indigenous technology of high altitude defence system, 4b$ budget is not enough! And if she decides to do I recommend to break the tasks to some state of art co-development projects, separated as:

A long range radar (this could be beneficial for Cafrad program, too)
re-generated computer code
Missile systems (plus answering TF-2000 requirements)
Vehicles (could be all inland technology)
Control and Command system
Advanced Electronic War capabilities
.
.
.

The achievements of such co-developed projects will be much more than T-Loramids for Turkey.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Ir.Tab.
Unfortunately we don't have time for such R&D projects, this is an emergency order and THAAD isn't on the table. If we can agree on replacement of Russian electronics(software&hardware) S400 is definitely the way to go. Aselsan can may be left tinkering with the systems for a while but we should be OK. As long as S400s' radars can be calibrated to work with our NATO infrastructure there isn't a better deal.

 

[cabatli_53]

The likely restrictions depends of the agreement you are going to sign with the country (X or Y no problem) who will provide some technology. If you restrict the move of technology provider with lots of items to be issued with agreement, It means The technologies gained from abroad, will easily be redesign/developed/modified/manufactured and exported to third countries forever but First of all, You have to convince technology provider wiith the items you are going to insist on. Take a look Skorsky T-70 tender. Although Skorsky agreed on almost all parts of T-70's to be manufactured in Turkey, The agreement couldn't be signed yet. It is because National production of helicopters doesn't satisfy SSM. It is about receiving export rights of around 300 proven T-70 with Turkish subsystems/avionics. Take a look U-214TN program. German submarines will be manufactured with a around %70 national contribution in Golcuk. Such tenders boosts the technological advancements and encourage institutes to do more R&D thanks to experiences/expertises gained to catch the production schedule to provide more. They are called as Turkish style tenders among us.

Nothing is clear for T-LORAMIDS as well. Recent months, Turkey suddenly made a U-turn and announced that The project model is changed from direct order to co-development. After this period, The institutes are started playing own games thanks to media. I think This tender will also be an example of "Turkish Style" but This time, I think Turkey will think about co-design and co-development of a national Long range missile system based on a foreign design, not like direct ordering Skorsky T-70 or U-214TN with impressive national contribution. If This tender will also be a Turkish style, I think Simple licence offers can never play a serious game over SSM's minds. Europeans know SSM very well so playing their games really strong. Pay attention, They are trying to make SSM accept that Aster-30 will be a Turkish SAM system to be exported abroad and rights to partnership for future variants as well.

Americans prefer staying cool. They think Turkey will sooner or later select Pac-3 system. They have already outsourced some critical parts of PAC-3 system for Turkish institutes such as Aselsan/Roketsan. They suppose More offset would bring victory in this tender. They never approach to share design rights of their systems with Turkey.

Russians know that Turks never trust them. There are lots of regional crissess Turkey and Russia come across so They need to satisfy Turkey with a nicely offer which SSM foreseens as well.

Eurosam offers no collaboration of a new design but partnership over existing design with national contribution and production shares which will remain same including export markets. They also offer partnership for future variants such as Aster-45. With this way, They are planning to add a new costumer for Aster.

I think China offers full tech and national conribution for not only domestic but also export markets.

We will see...

 

[olcayto]

@ legionnaire

I heard that the Russians were not willing to sell the s-400?
How do you expect that they will sell it to us?

 

[Ir.Tab.]

If I am not wrong I saw THAAD at IDEF13! And in none of official statements I found S400!

But the point, I try to say is that none of these systems are capable enough against mid-range ballistic targets except THAAD (That one, also, is on paper capability, yet).

These systems, even S400, could not protect Turkey against those type of threats! I do not know exactly, may be something like Arrow 3 will be the answer.

The most important part are the others! not the missiles. My friend, SM3 with other systems is not equal with SM3 with global missile shield system.

Long range ballistic missile has the velocity almost twice the SM3. What will give SM3 the intercepting capability is the time achieved, when X-ray radar detects the balletic missile at far far away. Then system calculates all the path of that balletic missile. Then the only job SM3 does is to put itself at the path of that very speedy target. SM3 has no chance to follow it!