Russia has allowed China to sell THE J-16 to Pakistan

[Ali_Baba]

Now way China would sell J-16D. It is too sensitive in case there are leaks of information to the US.

J-16 is older now and possibly available but it is extremely expensive since it is twin heavy thrust high power engines and WS-10 version for J-16 is more expensive than Al-31 which is already like 20 million dollars to import and support as a pair. Something like J-16 is required for its long range. Pakistan does not need to use such long range 90% of the time so it is worth all the extra cost?

Only the J16D makes sense if Pakistan was to procure - otherwise no point. The engines are a requirement to be able to generate the large amounts of electrical power required to use the EW and Jamming systems and has nothing to do with "range".

The recent standoff with India highlighted the value of the No. 24 - Blinders squadron but it also high lighted the weakness of the No. 24 - Blinders Squadron - they only have 3 small planes !!!!!!

 

[S.Y.A]

Yes but if purchase is for countering Indian navy, the submarines and UAV can do it much better than a few expensive J-16 fighters. Maybe the J-16 can air launch heavier and larger anti ship weapons at much further away than the coast.

I don't think that's something Pakistan can afford. India's navy is not strong or well armed but certainly much more than Pakistan's at the moment. Choose conflict wisely since Pakistan cannot afford to outspend India and is already at lower starting base. India has some decent shipbuilding ability in comparison to Pakistan so the best counter could be submarines but India can counter that with improved anti-submarine they can buy from USA.

You know what is easiest? Just station some Chinese commanded and operated anti-ship hypersonic weapons inside Pakistan at all times and in case of war between India and Pakistan, use hypersonic anti-ship weapons launched from coast to destroy Indian navy. Honestly just target only high value ships and nothing more. Simply not even worth a single anti-ship ballistic missile or HGV. But this method is cheaper than buying many J-16 and risking them 100km away from coast and launching sea skimming anti-ship weapons. Better to station 10 HGVs or 10 ASBM units. That is more affordable for Pakistan.

any future naval battle between india and pakistan may look like a modern day falklands war, there, the biritish noted that had the argentinians targeted aircraft carriers and landing ships instead of destroyers, the entire thing would have ended in a disaster for the british. same situation may apply here. so, you are right, no need to go for twin engine jets. we only need enough missiles and subs to threaten major indian ships.

 

[dreambear]

any future naval battle between india and pakistan may look like a modern day falklands war, there, the biritish noted that had the argentinians targeted aircraft carriers and landing ships instead of destroyers, the entire thing would have ended in a disaster for the british. same situation may apply here. so, you are right, no need to go for twin engine jets. we only need enough missiles and subs to threaten major indian ships.

The submarine is much more expensive than J-16 and takes a very long time to build.

 

[serenity]

无人机对抗印度海军？根本不可能的。无人机只能对付，没有空军，并且防空实力非常弱的国家。
无人机飞行速度慢，在有人战机面前只能是活靶子。
至于潜艇，中国向巴基斯坦出口了8艘S20，合同总价值50亿美元，平均每艘6亿多美元。
注意， 这已经是非常友好的价格了。S20 水下排水量只有2300吨，是种小型潜艇。巴基斯坦如果要从其他国家购买， 还要贵得多。另外，潜艇建造复杂，交付周期很长。中巴潜艇合同是2017年签的，到现在都没有交付一艘。

如果是购买40架 歼16，按中国目前的产能，2年内可以全部交付。

J16 for $80 million and J31 for $100 million.

China would prefer to have 40 extra J-16 than to sell 40 J-16.

Type 039A is not what China needs absolutely every unit it can make of. Type 09V is the real focus and for now while 09V is being built, 09III series is being upgraded and newer units have much more modern anti-submarine and anti-ship abilities. Therefore 039A or export S20 is okay to produce for export on the side while PLAN also still buys new ones but it is not of the same importance as more J-16 is for PLAAF.

The order of 40 maybe able to be filled much more quickly than submarines but Pakistan has much more need to modernize its submarine fleet than it needs for modern fighters. J-16 anyway is not intended as a naval fighter and its equipment is not directed for those jobs as much as J-15 is or future J-35.

If they really prefer and must have a fighter to deal with Indian navy a long distance from their coast, then they better go with J-35 with J-15 supporting since these are dedicated for anti-ship and air superiority whereas J-16 is dedicated for ground strike and air superiority.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

.Now Russia is allowed to sell "Shenkhoi" series fighter jets to Pakistan, which is a big change, but on the face of it, it can only be sold to Pakistan

what is the source of your claim? a claim by someone on another website?
lets say that claim is true even then PAF whole philosophy or doctrine will need changing and updating to accommodate a twin engine jet for whatever role it is destined for.

 

[S.Y.A]

The submarine is much more expensive than J-16 and takes a very long time to build.

its can also hide its position pretty well.

 

[dreambear]

what is the source of your claim? a claim by someone on another website?
lets say that claim is true even then PAF whole philosophy or doctrine will need changing and updating to accommodate a twin engine jet for whatever role it is destined for.

I posted the source at the bottom of the post.

 

[Darth Vader]

Unless China is gifting these for free, Dont see Pakistan buying these.

 

[dreambear]

China would prefer to have 40 J-16 than to sell 40 J-16.

Type 039A is not what China needs absolutely every unit it can make of. Type 09V is the real focus and for now while 09V is being built, 09III series is being upgraded and newer units have much more modern anti-submarine and anti-ship abilities. Therefore 039A or export S20 is okay to produce for export on the side while PLAN also still buys new ones but it is not of the same importance as more J-16 is for PLAAF.

The order of 40 maybe able to be filled much more quickly than submarines but Pakistan has much more need to modernize its submarine fleet than it needs for modern fighters. J-16 anyway is not intended as a naval fighter and its equipment is not directed for those jobs as much as J-15 is or future J-35.

If they really prefer and must have a fighter to deal with Indian navy a long distance from their coast, then they better go with J-35 with J-15 supporting since these are dedicated for anti-ship and air superiority whereas J-16 is dedicated for ground strike and air superiority.

50亿美元，可以买到8艘S20潜艇，但却可以买到62架歼16，每架歼16 8000万美元。62架歼16战力真的不如8艘S20吗？


For $5 billion, you can buy 8 S20 submarines, but you can buy 62 J-16s at $80 million each.Is 62 J-16s really less powerful than 8 S20s?

 

[serenity]

Only the J16D makes sense if Pakistan was to procure - otherwise no point. The engines are a requirement to be able to generate the large amounts of electrical power required to use the EW and Jamming systems and has nothing to do with "range".

The recent standoff with India highlighted the value of the No. 24 - Blinders squadron but it also high lighted the weakness of the No. 24 - Blinders Squadron - they only have 3 small planes !!!!!!

I am not saying the engine has anything to do with range but the advantage of J-16 is in its range. That is its stand out ability. J-16 is no more modern than J-10C in other aspects but to have that J-16, you need to buy and maintain two engines instead of one. It is a cost issue I am raising not range or engine. Yes the engine power is what allows the new auxiliary power systems developed just for J-16D but it does get power from engines and two high performance engines is of course better than two medium performance or one engine.

I don't think China would like to sell its most advanced electronic warfare technologies to anyone. Simply because Pakistan also still has some ties to USA there is just some tiny risk of leaks that immediately all top level service technologies are out of bounds but still modern systems are available for sale and be useful to counter India. Active attack types may not be since I don't know any apart from latest Y series EW aircraft and J-16D. These are active attack types that seem not exportable yet.

Of course J-16D would be quite a useful aircraft for PAF and there is probably some need to stay ahead of India in EW and active electronic attack.

 

[arjunk]

J16 is likely to be more expensive than J31.

J-31 will lead to India getting F-35s which will be a massive problem for Pakistan and its thin territory.

 

[serenity]

50亿美元，可以买到8艘S20潜艇，但却可以买到62架歼16，每架歼16 8000万美元。62架歼16战力真的不如8艘S20吗？


For $5 billion, you can buy 8 S20 submarines, but you can buy 62 J-16s at $80 million each.Is 62 J-16s really less powerful than 8 S20s?

They are very different.

62 J-16 cannot do the job of even 1 S20 submarine for certain things. Pakistan already has JF-17 block 3. It is not a J-16 at all but they have more need to modernize submarine fleet.

If the purpose is to engage Indian navy and prevent the Indian navy from performing strikes on Pakistan from the sea, the Pakistan navy is absolutely not in the shape to counter the entire Indian navy. So should it ignore that completely or move to improve the gap? Will several dozen J-16 be the answer? They would crush Mig-29K but to do that and also sink most of the Indian navy's large ships? I doubt it. 60 J-16 with even 50 operating during this would only be able to launch maybe 200 anti ship weapons on the fleet. They also somehow need to destroy the entire Mig-29K fleet from carriers. I think this is not possible for only 50 J-16.

For this price and time from purchase to use, it's far easier and less risky by simply using ASBM and HGV. China can station Chinese operators on Pakistan for this if secrecy is a concern.

Also J-16 is not much cheaper than J-35 which is already reaching service according to the leaks last month. The J-35 is completed right and some units with ground bases while they are training and waiting for the carrier. So for J-16 money I would rather buy J-35 which at least is stealth and can launch stealthy cruise missiles at ships which I'm sure is the purpose as well as air superiority.

J-31 will lead to India getting F-35s which will be a massive problem for Pakistan and its thin territory.

Maybe you're right. US would approve sales to India if Pakistan gets J-31/35.

 

[princefaisal]

Wish for one dedicated squadron of J-16s in Pakistan Navy and one dedicated squadron of J-16D's in Pakistan air-force.

 

[Abid123]

J16 is likely to be more expensive than J31.

How much do you think the J-31 will cost? I guess around 70-80 million USD? Around half that of one F-35?

 

[MH.Yang]

How much do you think the J-31 will cost? I guess around 70-80 million USD? Around half that of one F-35?

J16 costs 520 million CNY (80 million USD).
The cost of J35 is estimated to be 480 million CNY (75 million US dollars) by domestic media.
Moreover, the Russians are very alert to the emergence of J16. I seriously doubt that Russia will allow China to export J16.
In fact, J16 is the best flanker now, and Russia is selling SU35.

J-31 will lead to India getting F-35s which will be a massive problem for Pakistan and its thin territory.

J16D will also lead India to obtain EA18G and even f35I. The purchase of these two aircraft will also bring F35 to India. Pakistan should choose its own 5G fighter after India buys 5G fighter.
Pakistan's economy is not as large as India's, I don't think Pakistan should take the initiative to increase the intensity of the arms race. It would be better to put more resources into economic development.